RE: Why A Slave?

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UllrsIshtar -> RE: Why A Slave? (6/4/2013 11:01:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Greta75 Crossing a line is being abusive. Crossing a line is an understatement. Except that you didn't say she said she felt he crossed a line. You said that what she said made you THINK she believes he crossed a line. Yet, you've been incorrectly thinking stuff about what you believed I said all night. Which is it, did she SAY that she thinks he crossed a line, or did she say stuff that made you THINK she believes he crossed a line? quote: ORIGINAL: Greta75 Everything you said was exactly as I thought about your situation. Make up your mind, I said you weren't abuse and then you went on and on trying to claim you were abused, then say again you weren't abuse. So my first gut about you is right, you weren't abuse. This chick was completely different, she never contradicted herself at all, her flow was one single message. I haven't contradicted myself once. I said I'd take offense at you thinking I was abused, and that still stands. My story never changed one bit, I just added details that became relevant. You're the one that's reaching the -again- wrong conclusion that I'm claiming I was abused when I said NO SUCH THING. You keep bring up stuff that in your mind proofs that this chick is being abused, and I keep saying "yup that happened to me too". The fact that you from there jump to the conclusion that I'm saying that I've been abused WITHOUT ME SAYING SO is rather telling, I may add. quote: ORIGINAL: Greta75 She's made a mistake, she doesn't know how to get out. This isn't what she envisioned, this isn't what she want, she didn't even expect that she'll be shared. That was omitted before she made the decision to go with him. She isn't asking for things to be more hardcore. Things got too hardcore for her. Again, my friend could have written this word for word after talking to me. I felt I made a mistake, and didn't know how to get out. It wasn't what I envisioned, it wasn't what I wanted, I didn't expect to be expected to have the sexual contact that I had with the parties in question. That was omitted before I made the decision to go with him, as where a hoist of other things that ended up happening. I didn't ask to be more hardcore (as in expected to submit to people who I didn't feel in the least bit submissive to, while he was less and less involved). His expectations of me got too high for me to cope with. He's crossed and pushed several lines with me, some of them I will carry the resulting consequences of for the rest of my life. All of that made me unhappy. It took a while for me to get up the courage to tell him this. It took me even longer to tell him I wanted out. It took even longer for him to agree. I wasn't abused. I got exactly what I signed up for: slavery. It just wasn't what I was hoping it was going to be. Getting out sucked. I was unable to cope with life without him for a while. I felt completely lost. I pulled through. Life went on. I got stronger because of the experience. I wish him nothing but the best today, but there have been times in my passed where I wished him death, where I wished I'd never met him, where I wished him punished, where I wished to again be able to be with him. I will tell you now though that he is a good man. His flaws with dealing with me came down to a lack of experience and him not being omnipotent. If I knew another girl looking for the same thing I was looking for when we just met that I thought would be a good fit for him, I would happily send her his way without doubting that she'd end up well for even a second. Nothing that you've said so far has in the slightest convinced me that this girl is being abused. Especially the lack of her saying so, and the fact that this is what she signed up for, whether it turned out to be what she had hoped for or not. What I see is you hearing her vent about her frustrations at her life not being the way she had hoped, and you jumping to the conclusion: well if THESE things are what the issues are, then obviously she's being abused. What I'm trying to tell you is that there isn't a single stand alone fact that you've told me that indicates that it's necessarily a case of abuse to me. Several of the facts make it possible, some of them make it more likely than others, while others make it less likely, but not a single thing you've said, taken at face value, indicated that this is necessarily a case of abuse. It could be, it could not be. Based on how eager you are to take things out of their stated context and give your personal world view's twist on it, I'm betting it's not though.

UllrsIshtar -> RE: Why A Slave? (6/4/2013 11:02:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JeffBC quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Grins... exactly. That roller-coaster. sighs heavily Man, I'm doing it wrong again. We don't have much of a roller coaster here nor is life full of tingling dangerous excitement. I just keep quietly extending my control over her and she just keeps obeying and we keep loving each other. I am so freakin boring. Loose the butterflies and sunshine and you'll fix that grievous error in no time. [;)]

JeffBC -> RE: Why A Slave? (6/4/2013 11:13:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar Loose the butterflies and sunshine and you'll fix that grievous error in no time. [;)] Well yeah but honestly the world needs more sunshine & butterflies. Besides, I'm kind of addicted to the sort of depth that can be built with steady progression over time. It's a different thing than the wild highs and lows for sure. By normal personality I'd be more the wild high & low guy but in this case "the dark and mysterious depths" has me very, very intrigued. I often wonder what a happy, solid 20 year long IE dynamic would look like (4-5x the length of mine). I don't actually believe I could understand it even if I lived with the couple for a month. I think I'd get it about as well as Greta is getting Carol and I.

Greta75 -> RE: Why A Slave? (6/4/2013 11:15:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl But, if I were angry, and petty over not getting my way, imagine the things I could make up. Except, she's not complaining about anything petty. If she was, I guess I wouldn't pay her any attention.

Greta75 -> RE: Why A Slave? (6/4/2013 11:16:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Let me give you an example. We were rough housing one day, pushing and shoving each other, and both laughing about it. he suddenly pushed, I was wearing socks on carpet so my feet slipped, and I fell over a chair. As I fell, I landed on my back, my shoulder hitting an out facing corner. I have a partial tear of my rotator cuff as a result. He didn't intentionally do it, and you know it. Of course it's not abuse.

Greta75 -> RE: Why A Slave? (6/4/2013 11:19:34 PM)
quote: I didn't ask to be more hardcore Okay, I inferred from you example of you venting to another chick at that time, when she's telling you that his doing all these bad things, but your main issue was that, he wasn't doing enough bad things. Your vibe and her vibe is totally different. But hard to compare, since you aren't under your situation at the moment, and it's far far away, so clearly, the energy I feel is very relax and very positive, compared to her energy where...., I really felt she was getting close to suicidal stage.

UllrsIshtar -> RE: Why A Slave? (6/4/2013 11:35:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Greta75 quote: I didn't ask to be more hardcore Okay, I inferred from you example of you venting to another chick at that time, when she's telling you that his doing all these bad things, but your main issue was that, he wasn't doing enough bad things. Oh I wanted him to do more of the things my friend considered "bad" for sure. There where just other things I didn't want him to do at all, that he choose to do instead. I wanted him to control me more, he instead tried to push me to be more controlled by somebody who I didn't want to control me. My friend would have labelled what I wanted him to do "hardcore" I wouldn't have. My friend would have considered what he tried to push me to do rather insignificant in the grand scheme of the things he expected of me. To me it was an unovercompable issue. The thing is, everything you have said so far is going of your believe, of what you think this chick doesn't want anymore. You're not going off of what she does want, and is choosing to remain under. The things my friend think I didn't want anymore because she considered them abusive, and therefore assumed I must feel the same way, and the things I actually didn't want anymore bore virtually no resemblance to each other. quote: ORIGINAL: Greta75 Your vibe and her vibe is totally different. But hard to compare, since you aren't under your situation at the moment, and it's far far away, so clearly, the energy I feel is very relax and very positive, compared to her energy where...., I really felt she was getting close to suicidal stage. Of course you do. Like I said, we're years later and I've processed all of it. If you would have caught me on a bad week, you'd have ran to the board with stories worse than what you're saying this chick has told you. For example, I had a rather sever ankle injury at one point, only, because I don't swell easily, it didn't significantly swell up. It didn't bruise particularly bad either, despite the fact that I usually bruise when you look at me harshly. Based on that, and based on other issues of distrust he had in me by that point, he judged it "no big deal". I on the other hand tried to convince him I was in agonizing pain, needed to rest, and asked to see a doctor. He deemed me "faking it" to get out of having to haul firewood in several feet of snow, and send me out anyways. The ankle never healed properly. Over a year after release I had it looked at. It turns out I had a fracture, and tore a ligament. Unless I undergo extensive surgery, it will never properly heal, and even with it it's doubtful it'll be perfect. Had I talked to you that week, you'd come away from that conversation with horror stories about how abusive he is, denying me medical care, and how he obviously didn't give a shit about me not listening to my complaints about the pain. The thing is, neither would be true. He made a judgement call that was wrong. I didn't stand up against that judgement call despite me knowing that it was wrong, because I feared the consequences I had made up in my mind as a reason not to go against his will. In reality, the consequences would have been very very minor. He wasn't abusive, even though he was wrong, and he handled the situation poorly. Yet, I have no doubt in my mind that had you talked to me that specific week or the week after, you would have come back believing he was.

UllrsIshtar -> RE: Why A Slave? (6/5/2013 12:00:09 AM)
Another story, about my current husband this time, considering Jeff's valid point at how you'd take him. My husband and I don't have an M/s relationship at all. I don't have to obey him if I don't want to. However, he's got the option to randomly enforce expectations on me, unnegotiated, on a mere whim, and punish me for failing to comply. As far as punishments go, imagine playing on a painscale from 1 to 10, with 10 being where I'd call a safe word in a normal consensual play scene. For punishment scenes he pushes my pain level to about a 15, or 18... I'm not really too sure on that, because everything over 10 tends to be "ouchmotherfuckerthathurtsstopthatimmediately!!!!!" so it sorta blurs together. During punishment, he doesn't acknowledge safewords, in fact, he pretty much doesn't acknowledge any of my attempts to stop him from doing anything. And attempt to stop him I sure do. I bite, I kick, I scream, I beg, I plead, I cry, I turn so hysterical that I go numb and catatonic, I yell, I promises him anything I can think of, do anything I can think to try, tell him anything I think will make him give me respite of just a moment. I would run naked out of the house if I wasn't tied up, just to get away from him. I'd do anything I can do to stop him, if just for one moment. He ignores it all. In fact, he enjoys pushing me to that level of hysteria. I wouldn't for a moment think about leaving him. I couldn't, I need him in my life too much. I can't picture going on without him. Without him, life would be rather meaningless. I will suffer through whatever he wants me to suffer through in order to remain with him. If he tells me tomorrow he's going to insist on nailing my tits to a board, I'd try to talk him out of it, but I wouldn't leave. He's not abusive at all. Not even in the slightest. Not even for a second. In fact, I can't even imagine him doing anything abusive to me at all. I love him more than I've ever loved any man in my life. Yet, if I leave off that last line, the idea that he is, is the only impression you'd walk away with from that post.

UllrsIshtar -> RE: Why A Slave? (6/5/2013 12:07:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JeffBC I often wonder what a happy, solid 20 year long IE dynamic would look like (4-5x the length of mine). In your case, you and Carol will have morfed in this androgynous blob so that it's not distinguishable where you begin and she ends, radiating out pure, unadulterated love to a degree that's blinding to most people, and melts witches and other evildoers.

JeffBC -> RE: Why A Slave? (6/5/2013 12:15:32 AM)
HOLY CRAP!!! I get super powers? Oh man that is SO worth it all! Still though it's a serious wonder of mine. I wish I knew such a couple. Aside from the intellectual curiosity I like soaking up happy vibes about like a cat soaks up sun warmth. I really don't think I'd have much of a chance of understanding beyond surface stuff but even that would contain gold for me.

Greta75 -> RE: Why A Slave? (6/5/2013 2:34:13 AM)
UllrsIshtar, I would love to hear how you describe your situation when you are so-called "negative" mode or "down time", so maybe post a rant if you ever feel in that mode again and I can compare it with the other girl, because at the moment, you are giving off more content, serene vibes and the way you describe your husband, you obviously adore the hell out of him. Even if you had left out the last line. It sounds more like a fond recollection at the moment.

Aswad -> RE: Why A Slave? (6/5/2013 6:57:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Greta75 Which is pretty weird too, for a dom, to enjoy playing damsel in distress to other female subs. What's wierd about it? Messing with your head is apparently easy and was probably fun for someone. Congratulations on enjoying(?) your first round of non-consensual cybersex mindjobbery; someone had a happy. IWYW, — Aswad.

UllrsIshtar -> RE: Why A Slave? (6/5/2013 9:51:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Greta75 UllrsIshtar, I would love to hear how you describe your situation when you are so-called "negative" mode or "down time", so maybe post a rant if you ever feel in that mode again and I can compare it with the other girl, "Negative" mode or "down time" being you words, it still won't happen. Like I said, I'm not in a M/s relationship right now. I'm not a slave, I don't have to obey, and I don't not have a choice. I'm no longer in the mental mind constructions that eliminate free will that she's in.

Greta75 -> RE: Why A Slave? (6/5/2013 10:11:00 AM)
quote: Messing with your head is apparently easy and was probably fun for someone. I just don't really get what the kick is. Especially when it was just for one time chat, and that was it. I talked to her like a counselor. I didn't go like, oh his an asshole or you got to get out of there. I simply listened, and told her, the decision is in her hands, only she can take action to get out of the situation, my email address if she really needs help and is ready to make a plan to leave, contact me. So I didn't think it would be fun for the dom, I simply listened and ask questions. If any fun he had out of it if he was fake was that he had to make up more stories as I load up more questions.

UllrsIshtar -> RE: Why A Slave? (6/5/2013 10:18:37 AM)
Greta, answer my question: did she say he's abusive, or do you think she believes he's abusive from what she said.

Greta75 -> RE: Why A Slave? (6/5/2013 10:36:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar Greta, answer my question: did she say he's abusive, or do you think she believes he's abusive from what she said. She didn't say the word abusive, but she said that he keeps her without clothes, and has to eat and drink from a dog bowl, and she got to service other men which he charges them for using her. And then she said that she has no more self-worth left after all that and is ashamed at herself for doing all those things. She said she felt worthless and degraded. I mean, granted I never ate from a dog bowl, but I still got humiliated by collar and leash, kept naked, made to crawl, even swallow his pee, but I never felt degraded and I never felt abuse or my self-esteem got hurt. I had so much joy in those things, and it made me feel closer to my x-dom, I love it. So I just felt really bad for her. For her, even being kept naked was a big issue to her, she really was uncomfortable with it, while for me, I love being kept naked, and I totally enjoy it. Hell, my x-dom pays me $2 everytime he fucks me cuz he calls me a $2 whore. And I always laughed cuz I thought it was funny, it's so different, it should be fun and joy and not awful like that. I interpret that as abusive, because I expect a dom, no matter what, should be making sure whatever he wants does not affect her self-esteem. And I am sure another dom could have a slave and do all that stuffs and not have the slave feel the way she does, like my x-dom would have.

UllrsIshtar -> RE: Why A Slave? (6/5/2013 11:38:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Greta75 She didn't say the word abusive Ok, so you're drawing your own conclusions, based on no evidence at all. quote: ORIGINAL: Greta75 but she said that he keeps her without clothes, and has to eat and drink from a dog bowl, and she got to service other men which he charges them for using her. And then she said that she has no more self-worth left after all that and is ashamed at herself for doing all those things. She said she felt worthless and degraded. Sounds like emotional masochism to me. I've often felt ashamed, worthless and degraded from BDSM play. Both in long term relationships, as well as in casual play. It's stuff I seek out. Deliberately. Even though the acts themselves sometimes make me feel like crap, I enjoy the feelings. quote: ORIGINAL: Greta75 I mean, granted I never ate from a dog bowl Eating from a dog bowl is pretty minor, no? I mean, I've been made to eat directly off the dirt outside before. Hell I've been made to eat bugs and lick spilled food off a dirty kitchen floor. Acts by themselves aren't really an issue, wouldn't you agree? quote: ORIGINAL: Greta75 I never felt degraded and I never felt abuse or my self-esteem got hurt. I had so much joy in those things, and it made me feel closer to my x-dom, I love it. Hold on a second... first of all, you're saying she's never said she felt abused either. Further, it's perfectly fine for you to never have felt degraded, or (ab)used, of have your self-esteem hurt, but that doesn't mean everybody is going to react that way. I've felt all of those things often. I rarely feel "so much joy" in doing those things. In fact, I can't really related at all to how you're describing it feels to you. It never feels like that to me. In fact, being made to feel like that would take part of the joy out of the experience. If I enjoy what's being done to me while it's happening, it would ruin the whole thing for me. quote: ORIGINAL: Greta75 For her, even being kept naked was a big issue to her, she really was uncomfortable with it, while for me, I love being kept naked, and I totally enjoy it. Hell, my x-dom pays me $2 everytime he fucks me cuz he calls me a $2 whore. And I always laughed cuz I thought it was funny, it's so different, it should be fun and joy and not awful like that. Again, I can't relate to your reaction at all, while I can relate perfectly to hers. The idea of laughing as something a Dom does to degrade me puzzles me. If I would actually feel degraded by it, it would feel silly, awkward and like bad theater to me. I don't play at feeling humiliated, degraded, and worthless. I play in such a way that I actually seek out activities that will provoke those exact feelings in me. Doing stuff precisely because it makes me really uncomfortable is something I've done a lot, both in short term and long term relationship, as well as in casual one-night-stands... hell, I've had phonesex before with the specific purpose of making me feel completely degraded and uncomfortable. That's not to say that I never do stuff, or have stuff done to me, just because I enjoy it. But if that would be the entirety of play, I would be incredibly disappointed, and feel like a crucial part was missing. quote: ORIGINAL: Greta75 I interpret that as abusive, because I expect a dom, no matter what, should be making sure whatever he wants does not affect her self-esteem. We completely disagree on that. I consider the owner affecting the self-esteem of his property to be one of the centrally important parts of IE relationships. Without it, I wouldn't consider it actual enslavement, and would instead label it "role-playing" being a slave. I wouldn't want to bottom to any man on a consistent basis who didn't have the capability of affecting my self-esteem. quote: ORIGINAL: Greta75 And I am sure another dom could have a slave and do all that stuffs and not have the slave feel the way she does, like my x-dom would have. Of course he could. But maybe he doesn't want that. Maybe he doesn't want a girl who enjoys doing all those things for him. Maybe she -just like me- wouldn't enjoy having a Dom who only did the things she wanted to do either...

GotSteel -> RE: Why A Slave? (6/5/2013 3:10:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Nope. No need too. But thank you for your false concern. [;)] It's not false. Obviously I can't make my own informed opinion here, I haven't even seen your dynamic, I'm just believing you. Think about how you've talked about your relationship dynamic in this thread. The three years and nine months of wanting out, the sobbing on your friends shoulder, how hard it is. In light of the picture I'm getting can you understand my wondering if you'd gotten any professional relationship advice?

tazzygirl -> RE: Why A Slave? (6/5/2013 3:17:45 PM)
Didnt need any. And you read what you wanted to read. You seem to have missed a lot.

JeffBC -> RE: Why A Slave? (6/5/2013 4:05:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl You seem to have missed a lot. I would agree. Yes, you said all those things and it's not a relationship I would want. But it did serve it's purpose for you at that time and you still remember it fondly in at least some ways. From what you wrote I'd have called it one of those "growth experiences".

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