RE: Why A Slave?

RE: Why A Slave? (Full Version)

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JeffBC -> RE: Why A Slave? (6/6/2013 11:31:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar I was being playful, but I'm not joking. That -minus the extremes- is really what I think will happen with you both. :) I knew that actually and I thought you were probably right. I just wanted the super-powers is all. quote: They where so close, and so good at understanding and reading each other that they sometimes appeared as one person. It was very hard when they talked to figure out who exactly said what, and came up with what idea, because how well their thoughts intertwined. And when you saw them together, they did very much radiate out an aura of love. They where one, and even though my grandfather was subtly in charge, and my grandmother subtly followed, you wouldn't have been able to tell that unless you knew them very very well, because she knew what he wanted and did it before he even had a chance to formulate it as a leading direction, and he knew what she needed and adapted his own desires to that to such a degree that it was next to impossible to tell whether he wanted something because he wanted it, or she wanted it, or they both wanted it. Already this is very familiar to me... not surprisingly given that our marriage is much longer than our dynamic. Not only do I find it hard to tell whether I want something or not I don't really care. I'd have to struggle to think of reasons I wouldn't want something that Carol did want. Conversely, if this was something she didn't want then what use could it have to me? What the marriage wants trumps both of us. Of course, she thinks the same way and it ends up going as you described. It's easy for me to think in terms of D/s with us. Clearly of our two personalities mine is the one which "overshadows" hers. But it's hard to think in terms of "command" and "obedience" because that would require more separation between us than is normally desirable or allowed. Heh... I have no idea (nor have I for some time) if that makes us a "true" this or that but if man... that path sounds like a path of true happiness to me.

tazzygirl -> RE: Why A Slave? (6/6/2013 11:35:31 AM)
Just out of curiosity, do you think that if your dynamic had started out as D/s or M/s, would it have morphed the same way? You may not be able to answer that, and its ok if you cant. It requires a lot of supposition.

JeffBC -> RE: Why A Slave? (6/6/2013 11:46:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Just out of curiosity, do you think that if your dynamic had started out as D/s or M/s, would it have morphed the same way? You may not be able to answer that, and its ok if you cant. It requires a lot of supposition. Absolutely. Let me show my work. Our "dynamic" DID start out as D/s from our very first meeting. It's just neither of us had the words and perspective to see it in that light. But our "dynamic" is merely a reflection of us. It's not agreement based. Nobody had to nod to make it so. So given that, how this unfolded is how I wanted it to unfold. I was always in charge and this is where I brought us -- on purpose. If I had known a different set of terminology it would not have changed anything. This is just what happens when you put a love muffin in charge of a marriage. When I spoke of the length of our dynamic above I was referring to our formal dynamic because things definitely went to a new level once we started focusing on it. But the truth of our marriage is that I was always in charge.

tazzygirl -> RE: Why A Slave? (6/6/2013 1:13:56 PM)
I was curious if the marriage came first, and you both "fell" into the D/s or if it was here all along. Thank you for your response. Im not usually this nosey.

Greta75 -> RE: Why A Slave? (6/6/2013 5:30:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl if women are that cheap to buy, they arent getting much by whoring them out either. Sorry, but this is sounding more and more like a fantasy someone cooked up. And I realized the more I talk about it, the less sympathetic I become to this poor "victim". You are less sympathetic because it was her choice to go away with him. So you expect her to live with her decision or simply do something to get out. For me, I believe he gave her misleading information for someone who is inexperience in what slavery really encompass to entice her in. And with mind fucking and also environment she is in, I understand totally how difficult it will be for her to get out. More difficult than me if I was in her situation, although it could never happen to me, as I clearly know that I'm not into slavery.

littlewonder -> RE: Why A Slave? (6/6/2013 5:32:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Greta75 quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl if women are that cheap to buy, they arent getting much by whoring them out either. Sorry, but this is sounding more and more like a fantasy someone cooked up. And I realized the more I talk about it, the less sympathetic I become to this poor "victim". You are less sympathetic because it was her choice to go away with him. So you expect her to live with her decision or simply do something to get out. For me, I believe he gave her misleading information for someone who is inexperience in what slavery really encompass to entice her in. And with mind fucking and also environment she is in, I understand totally how difficult it will be for her to get out. More difficult than me if I was in her situation, although it could never happen to me, as I clearly know that I'm not into slavery. She's an adult. Stop treating her like a child. You do no one any favors.

littlewonder -> RE: Why A Slave? (6/6/2013 5:40:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Thats the optimal. Yet, when a slave chooses a man with the intention of changing him... say starting a relationship with a Sadist when she really isnt into hard core pain... and expecting him to give that part up and remain 100% faithful to her... that just isnt going to work. Yup, his line is my line. I'm not a masochist. He's a sadist. I knew what and who he is before I ever met him. I knew full well what I was getting into. There are things he does to me that I absolutely hate and even abhor but I do them anyway because I love him and I gave him my word and it makes him happy. I'm one of these people who is faithful to the end and will stick it out until it's just no longer viable. I will go to the ends of the earth before I let a relationship end. I've never had any interest in changing him though. Why would I? It would change the man I fell in love with. Is he still 100% faithful even though he knows I'm not a masochist? Yup. Even if he decides one day to play with someone else, I know he will still be faithful to me by coming back to me and still giving his love to me. Why? Because I trust him with all my heart, mind, body and soul.

Greta75 -> RE: Why A Slave? (6/6/2013 5:43:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: littlewonder She's an adult. Stop treating her like a child. You do no one any favors. She was still in her teens when she went away with him. I think at the point of going into it, she was not a fully developed adult yet. This ain't no 38 yr old woman.

tazzygirl -> RE: Why A Slave? (6/6/2013 5:48:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Greta75 quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl if women are that cheap to buy, they arent getting much by whoring them out either. Sorry, but this is sounding more and more like a fantasy someone cooked up. And I realized the more I talk about it, the less sympathetic I become to this poor "victim". You are less sympathetic because it was her choice to go away with him. So you expect her to live with her decision or simply do something to get out. For me, I believe he gave her misleading information for someone who is inexperience in what slavery really encompass to entice her in. And with mind fucking and also environment she is in, I understand totally how difficult it will be for her to get out. More difficult than me if I was in her situation, although it could never happen to me, as I clearly know that I'm not into slavery. Wow, you have no clue about me... none... yet you assume what I do know and what I dont... I could go into details, but beyond popular opinion, I dont share much about my private life on a message board. I made many mistakes, and paid the price.... I also learned to read bullshit when its dumped at my feet. And, at this point, I am so fucking pissed at you that I cant think straight. So, for now, my conversations with you are at a definite end.

UllrsIshtar -> RE: Why A Slave? (6/6/2013 6:14:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Greta75 quote: ORIGINAL: littlewonder She's an adult. Stop treating her like a child. You do no one any favors. She was still in her teens when she went away with him. I think at the point of going into it, she was not a fully developed adult yet. This ain't no 38 yr old woman. Lets for a moment assume that everything you say is true. Lets take the whole story at face value. Lets assume that you're right and she was clueless, and mislead, and is now horrible being abused by this awful awful man... Ok, so now what? What exactly are you trying to accomplish with your attempt to convince tizzy, lw, and myself that this story is a case of genuine abuse? Surely you're not expecting us to do something about it, we don't even have the details needed to track the poor girl down. So what's your point then? The whole deal with this girl got brought by you to demonstrate that you believe that real consensual slavery is possible (post #87) since then you've been on a mission it seems to also claim that this girl is being abused. In fact, every time somebody has come in and explained that any specific detail you brought up by itself wasn't a sign of abuse, you've gone on to come up with additional details that then would supposedly justify that this is a case of abuse. So fine, let's assume that in the specific case of this specific girl is a case of abuse... what's your point? That all cases of consensual slavery are cases of abuse? Or not? And if you don't believe that all cases on consensual slavery are cases of abuse, then why on Earth is it so important to hammer home to us that this specific case is one of abuse? It's not the topic of the thread, and nobody here has claimed even for a second that cases of consensual slavery can't go horrible wrong and end up being abusive (just like vanilla relationships can btw). So lets hear it... what's your point?

GotSteel -> RE: Why A Slave? (6/6/2013 6:16:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JeffBC quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl You seem to have missed a lot. I would agree. I immediately concede that and already have in my previous post. Furthermore as someone who avoids the gorean forum like the plague I have much less context as you do. I'm also not thinking of this in terms of "need", but am wondering if it would have been beneficial. If she had seen a psychologist, I certainly would be interested to hear what they had to say on the matter.

JeffBC -> RE: Why A Slave? (6/6/2013 6:19:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar So lets hear it... what's your point? You'd have to hang around in SecondLife to know the "point" -- assuming there is one. Man, I think I heard this story or one just like it about 6 thousand times. The number of 10 billion line notecards I got documenting all the horrendous things one alleged person did to another alleged person was just amazing. It's like the whole Captain SaveAHo thing is a national pastime in SL. There are entire sims setup to protect poor wayward slaves (at a cost of $300/mo last I checked). Believe it or not I've seen online courts doing online trials. Even ever-so-sweet Carol got to the place where she simply rolled her eyes.

Greta75 -> RE: Why A Slave? (6/6/2013 6:20:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar The whole deal with this girl got brought by you to demonstrate that you believe that real consensual slavery is possible (post #87) since then you've been on a mission it seems to also claim that this girl is being abused. I believe "real slavery" is abusive in the first place. I mean real slavery. I was simply illustrating a case how it was only consensual in the beginning, but later, starts being non-consensual slavery. So real slavery is still possible in bdsm, but the region you live in plays a huge part, I mean, if you were in Saudi, make an American women come with you to Saudi, good luck to her getting out. You are not even allowed to travel out without a man. That's my point. But it was derailed, because ya all believe this was tap tap tap and grilled me more on it.

UllrsIshtar -> RE: Why A Slave? (6/6/2013 6:24:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Greta75 I believe "real slavery" is abusive in the first place. I mean real slavery. I was simply illustrating a case how it was only consensual in the beginning, but later, starts being non-consensual slavery. So real slavery is still possible in bdsm, but the region you live in plays a huge part, I mean, if you were in Saudi, make an American women come with you to Saudi, good luck to her getting out. You are not even allowed to travel out without a man. That's my point. At what point does it become abuse? If somebody consensually enters into a relationship and then is made to do things they don't want to do, becomes brainwashed, manipulated, and put into a situation such that it becomes very hard, if not impossible for them to leave, is that real slaver? Or is more than that needed? And is it abuse, or is more than that needed?

Greta75 -> RE: Why A Slave? (6/6/2013 6:26:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar At what point does it become abuse? If somebody consensually enters into a relationship and then is made to do things they don't want to do, becomes brainwashed, manipulated, and put into a situation such that it becomes very hard, if not impossible for them to leave, is that real slaver? Or is more than that needed? And is it abuse, or is more than that needed? I think...., it's important the start before the person enters, she is consenting to everything that his gonna do first and understands the full implication of it before she gives "consent" into this long haul ride. If he mislead her then it's abuse. Basic parameters like, will she be shared, the guy should have been upfront and said, it's his decision to share her if he wants.

UllrsIshtar -> RE: Why A Slave? (6/6/2013 6:26:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JeffBC quote: ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar So lets hear it... what's your point? You'd have to hang around in SecondLife to know the "point" -- assuming there is one. Man, I think I heard this story or one just like it about 6 thousand times. The number of 10 billion line notecards I got documenting all the horrendous things one alleged person did to another alleged person was just amazing. It's like the whole Captain SaveAHo thing is a national pastime in SL. There are entire sims setup to protect poor wayward slaves (at a cost of $300/mo last I checked). Believe it or not I've seen online courts doing online trials. Even ever-so-sweet Carol got to the place where she simply rolled her eyes. Yeah no thanks, I've tried it. SL personally bores me to death. Fun about the online courts though. Did that related to offline crimes, or crimes "committed" within SL?

tazzygirl -> RE: Why A Slave? (6/6/2013 6:29:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel quote: ORIGINAL: JeffBC quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl You seem to have missed a lot. I would agree. I immediately concede that and already have in my previous post. Furthermore as someone who avoids the gorean forum like the plague I have much less context as you do. I'm also not thinking of this in terms of "need", but am wondering if it would have been beneficial. If she had seen a psychologist, I certainly would be interested to hear what they had to say on the matter. You would not believe the amount of peace one can find by finally accepting you cant have what you want in a relationship, and simply accept what you can have.

UllrsIshtar -> RE: Why A Slave? (6/6/2013 6:29:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Greta75 quote: ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar At what point does it become abuse? If somebody consensually enters into a relationship and then is made to do things they don't want to do, becomes brainwashed, manipulated, and put into a situation such that it becomes very hard, if not impossible for them to leave, is that real slaver? Or is more than that needed? And is it abuse, or is more than that needed? I think...., it's important the start before the person enters, she is consenting to everything that his gonna do first and understands the full implication of it before she gives "consent" into this long haul ride. If he mislead her then it's abuse. Basic parameters like, will she be shared, the guy should have been upfront and said, it's his decision to share her if she wants. Then you are saying I was abused, and Carol is abused, and -though I'm not 100% sure on this- tazzy and littlewonder are/have been abused as well. Because all of those are examples of relationships that where entered into consensually, without having all the expectations that would eventually be placed upon the s-type being laid out in detail beforehand. Hell, you're saying my husband is currently being abusive to me because he expects me to make coffee for him in the morning, something that I wasn't told at all would be part of the general expectations before marrying him.

tazzygirl -> RE: Why A Slave? (6/6/2013 6:31:42 PM)
I knew that much going in....lol

UllrsIshtar -> RE: Why A Slave? (6/6/2013 6:33:55 PM)
It's demeaning I tell ya. Traumatizing even, considering we have the same coffee maker as my ex-Mistress did, and it played a small part in the argument that caused the eventual break-up. I totally need therapy now (or to quit being so damn cheap and replace the damn coffee maker).

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