RE: Why A Slave? (Full Version)

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tazzygirl -> RE: Why A Slave? (6/3/2013 7:46:35 PM)

quote:

Carol's "slave distinction" doesn't really apply at all because even I'm not fixated on the label. I've decided she is Carol... my wife who obeys me.... because reality agrees with that description pretty closely :)


And, darling, thats the only one that matters!

[:D]



tazzygirl -> RE: Why A Slave? (6/3/2013 7:55:53 PM)

quote:

The thing about Gor, as compared to BDSM is, there is actually a guide book, which is the novels on what the lifestyle originated from. Of course, humans have the choice to choose what to follow and what not to follow in it, in this world of free will.


A guide book? Do share which one.

How many have you read?



Greta75 -> RE: Why A Slave? (6/3/2013 8:00:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
How many have you read?

What's there to share? It's like the bible as I said. You have the choice to follow exactly or pick and choose what you want to follow.
Our disagreement seem to be, I say, gorean men are "this" and "this", which is my impression of them from a book, which this culture originated from.
And you say, but "human goreans" are not like that!
And I agreed, because they are humans, so there is free will, they can choose to deviate where-ever and how-ever they want.



tazzygirl -> RE: Why A Slave? (6/3/2013 8:05:12 PM)

No, I am saying there are men in the books who do not share. Which is why I asked you how many books out of the series you have read.



Greta75 -> RE: Why A Slave? (6/3/2013 8:10:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

No, I am saying there are men in the books who do not share. Which is why I asked you how many books out of the series you have read.

Only after they fall inlove.



JeffBC -> RE: Why A Slave? (6/3/2013 8:10:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1
We ended up not doing, it, and I don't know how it would have worked out for him if we had, but she was trying to make their cuckold fantasy real in a way that involved sharing but not actual sex. I thought it was a very interesting idea. Maybe that's a form of "sharing" that would push a limit without shattering it.

*nods* I've come up with a solution similar to what you describe. Carol... the shy, introverted, pain-averse, vanilla girl will be loaned out to our local equivalent of Kana for some SM play (not sex). The challenge, of course, will not be whether she obeys the external commands. That's a given. The challenge will be in whether she can obey the internal commands I give her about mindset and headspace -- particularly since I'm not planning on giving her any warning so she's going to need to wrestle her "self" into line abruptly and dramatically.

In our case it isn't the concern about limits since I have no concerns about that.. it's more like how hard it is to find someone to fuck your wife that you trust to fuck your wife... and then there are the disease control issues.



tazzygirl -> RE: Why A Slave? (6/3/2013 8:12:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

No, I am saying there are men in the books who do not share. Which is why I asked you how many books out of the series you have read.

Only after they fall inlove.


lol... oh? Really? Love is a needed requirement? Not hardly. And you still are avoiding my question. How many books in the series have you read?



GotSteel -> RE: Why A Slave? (6/3/2013 8:20:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Hardly. But I do enjoy your fantasy image of consensual slavery.


I enjoy my image of it as well, it's been working for us for 5 years now as of last week.



JeffBC -> RE: Why A Slave? (6/3/2013 8:21:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
lol... oh? Really? Love is a needed requirement? Not hardly. And you still are avoiding my question. How many books in the series have you read?

Does it really matter? She is wanting to debate fictional gor. You are talking about real life gorean men. My answer would be something akin to, "Well, this isn't a book reading club. This is a discussion about real life BDSM so you can take it over to the Gorean forums." Over there, of course, she would hear the exact same answer and so have to decide whether she's more interested in fictional characters or real life people.



tazzygirl -> RE: Why A Slave? (6/3/2013 8:22:43 PM)

You do have a point. And its not that I really care to be honest. I pretty much have her pegged at this point, I was just cur4ious if she would own up to it. Guess not.



czarski -> RE: Why A Slave? (6/3/2013 8:25:46 PM)

I think we all know that this is a game. A slave can only exist within a government-enforced institution of slavery. In the absence of such official political institution, anyone held captive or otherwise physically forced is either an inmate or a victim of abduction. If psychological pressure is used instead of physical force, we're talking a victim of blackmail or psychological abuse/manipulation. If none of that is in place, there is no slave, no inmate, no hostage, no abduction victim, no subject of manipulation, - there is only a player pursuing his/her own interest.





Greta75 -> RE: Why A Slave? (6/3/2013 8:36:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
lol... oh? Really? Love is a needed requirement? Not hardly. And you still are avoiding my question. How many books in the series have you read?

Not every single book, as the science fi bit was really boring, only the slavegirl stuffs interests me.
From what I have gathered though, Gorean men, the aliens that live in Gor, did not believe in exclusivity until they start developing attachment to their slave. It's truly a universe where women have no rights. It appears to me also that it's as easily for a free woman to be forced into slavery against her will. That's what happened to earth women that was kidnapped there anyway.
Human Goreans, I will also agree that it is possible that they may not require affection to feel the need not to share, but at the same time, they're humans, so it's gorean mix with whatever culture they grew up with.
But I usually avoid Gorean men like I avoid Muslim men, because of their guide book, and really not truly knowing the extent of what they follow.




tazzygirl -> RE: Why A Slave? (6/3/2013 8:38:30 PM)

Might wanna brush up on your definitions. [;)]

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/slave



Aswad -> RE: Why A Slave? (6/3/2013 8:38:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

In the practical implementation thereof BDSM folks seem to more usually align it with a negative like "doormat".


This is particularly prevalent with the ones that are usually vocal about being "slaves" rather than "subs", it seems.

Anyway, here's an example of one perfectly legal way to go about getting a slave:

Find someone that's uncomfortable with choices and responsibility, ideally with poor life management skills and limited experience. Establish a relationship, with slowly increasing demands that are within the realm of what you know she will yield to. Shower her with attention as a reward for obedience. Show a complete disinterest whenever she is disobedient. Continue habituating her obedience until it is effectively unconditional. Give her complete freedom from having to make significant choices of her own. Allow her key life skills to deteriorate to the point where resuming an independent life feels like an impossible challenge that she is unwilling to even attempt without being forced to do so. Never waver on the point that obedience is a non-negotiable condition to staying with you, and make sure that remains her highest desire in life. If she already has an interest in kink before starting, you can play up on that, if you like, else just introduce your own interest in it, step by step.

Of course, most would consider that unethical, even if you set up a safety net that will rehabilitate her if you ever leave (one way or the other).

I wonder how many would call themselves "slaves" if the outcome of the above was held to be a canonical example of what a slave is.

For reference, a girl subjected to that sort of treatment was recently involved in a trial up here, filed by a third party. She obeyed his order to remain within line of sight of his prison cell, right up to the point when she was declared incompetent and carted off to the psych ward for forced rehabilitation. I think we can both agree that qualifies as a "real slave" for any practical purpose. The interesting question being whether it can exist within the framework of a healthy relationship. I think it can (as in, I know it can, but some might disagree on calling it a healthy relationship).

Either way, being a slave doesn't strike me as a badge of honor or necessarily "more sexy" or whatever.

It's just one flavor among many.

IWYW,
— Aswad.



JeffBC -> RE: Why A Slave? (6/3/2013 8:39:57 PM)

quote:

A slave can only exist within a government-enforced institution of slavery

I can think of 27 million people who would disagree with you.

Just to save you the time let me pull the relevant sections of the article that dispute your viewpoint...
While slavery is illegal across the globe, the SumAll Foundation noted, there are 27 million slaves worldwide,

In other words, there is no government supported slavery anywhere in the world but there are 27 million people that folks like the New York Times think the word "slave" is proper to describe. I'm guessing those 27 million people would agree with the NYT more than you.

I think you ought to write the New York Times and lecture them on their word usage. I'm sure their editors will be happy to receive your feedback since it's so obvious "we all know it".



Aswad -> RE: Why A Slave? (6/3/2013 8:43:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

In our case it isn't the concern about limits since I have no concerns about that.. it's more like how hard it is to find someone to fuck your wife that you trust to fuck your wife... and then there are the disease control issues.


This appears to be the primary issue for the Goreans I've spoken to.

I mean, who wants an STD or a ruined slave?

IWYW,
— Aswad.



tazzygirl -> RE: Why A Slave? (6/3/2013 8:44:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
lol... oh? Really? Love is a needed requirement? Not hardly. And you still are avoiding my question. How many books in the series have you read?

Not every single book, as the science fi bit was really boring, only the slavegirl stuffs interests me.
From what I have gathered though, Gorean men, the aliens that live in Gor, did not believe in exclusivity until they start developing attachment to their slave. It's truly a universe where women have no rights. It appears to me also that it's as easily for a free woman to be forced into slavery against her will. That's what happened to earth women that was kidnapped there anyway.
Human Goreans, I will also agree that it is possible that they may not require affection to feel the need not to share, but at the same time, they're humans, so it's gorean mix with whatever culture they grew up with.
But I usually avoid Gorean men like I avoid Muslim men, because of their guide book, and really not truly knowing the extent of what they follow.



And yet you applied the fantasy to a real woman in a real relationship. Dont you see the hypocrisy there? You, who are arguing that the books are different from the reality, are really trying to stand by the "few" books you have read and trying to apply that to a real relationship.

Fantasy in BDSM would be the Story of O, most of the porn flicks, "no limit" slaves.

Its obvious you do not know the extent of what they follow by your posts here, which is what I took exception at. Perhaps you should go read the gorean boards here, there is such a section.

Allow me to restate... some gorean man share, some do not. Some BDSM men share, some do not. The act of sharing doesnt make anyone gorean any more than it makes someone BDSM.

If you have questions, ask. Just dont assume based upon your own limited knowledge and the fantasy world you have come to know.



Aswad -> RE: Why A Slave? (6/3/2013 8:47:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: czarski

I think we all know that this is a game.


Do we, now?

I know it's a game for some, certainly, but some of us prefer to go beyond suspense of disbelief.

quote:

A slave can only exist within a government-enforced institution of slavery.


This is bullshit, and even contradicts the dictionary definition of the term.

By the way, have you read Aristotle's thoughts on natural slavery?

quote:

In the absence of such official political institution, anyone held captive or otherwise physically forced is either an inmate or a victim of abduction. If psychological pressure is used instead of physical force, we're talking a victim of blackmail or psychological abuse/manipulation.


None of which is incompatible with- or necessary for- slavery.

Read up on internal enslavement, for instance.

quote:

If none of that is in place, there is no slave, no inmate, no hostage, no abduction victim, no subject of manipulation, - there is only a player pursuing his/her own interest.


Yeah, that, or a slave, which is a legitimate interest to pursue, from either side of the kneel.

IWYW,
— Aswad.



Greta75 -> RE: Why A Slave? (6/3/2013 8:52:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
And yet you applied the fantasy to a real woman in a real relationship.
Dont you see the hypocrisy there? You, who are arguing that the books are different from the reality, are really trying to stand by the "few" books you have read and trying to apply that to a real relationship.


By saying this, are you saying that if a man and a woman adhere strictly to gorean culture, it's not a "real relationship" anymore?

I don't understand your point.

I have not said your relationship is any less real, I simply said I believe you on what you said that it is possible for human goreans to be those things due to making the decision to combine their own culture and upbringing values with Gorean values.





Greta75 -> RE: Why A Slave? (6/3/2013 8:57:17 PM)

quote:

Find someone that's uncomfortable with choices and responsibility, ideally with poor life management skills and limited experience. Establish a relationship, with slowly increasing demands that are within the realm of what you know she will yield to. Shower her with attention as a reward for obedience. Show a complete disinterest whenever she is disobedient. Continue habituating her obedience until it is effectively unconditional. Give her complete freedom from having to make significant choices of her own. Allow her key life skills to deteriorate to the point where resuming an independent life feels like an impossible challenge that she is unwilling to even attempt without being forced to do so. Never waver on the point that obedience is a non-negotiable condition to staying with you, and make sure that remains her highest desire in life. If she already has an interest in kink before starting, you can play up on that, if you like, else just introduce your own interest in it, step by step.

This is exactly what that dom did, of that girl I was talking about. Sometimes, when a dom is good at such manipulation, and a woman is just the weaker type, something as close to real slavery can happen.



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