RE: Why A Slave? (Full Version)

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tazzygirl -> RE: Why A Slave? (6/3/2013 9:03:56 PM)

quote:

By saying this, are you saying that if a man and a woman adhere strictly to gorean culture, it's not a "real relationship" anymore?


Please define "gorean culture". Many have tried, many have failed. Its been a topic of debate for as long as I have been around gor.



tazzygirl -> RE: Why A Slave? (6/3/2013 9:07:02 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

quote:

Find someone that's uncomfortable with choices and responsibility, ideally with poor life management skills and limited experience. Establish a relationship, with slowly increasing demands that are within the realm of what you know she will yield to. Shower her with attention as a reward for obedience. Show a complete disinterest whenever she is disobedient. Continue habituating her obedience until it is effectively unconditional. Give her complete freedom from having to make significant choices of her own. Allow her key life skills to deteriorate to the point where resuming an independent life feels like an impossible challenge that she is unwilling to even attempt without being forced to do so. Never waver on the point that obedience is a non-negotiable condition to staying with you, and make sure that remains her highest desire in life. If she already has an interest in kink before starting, you can play up on that, if you like, else just introduce your own interest in it, step by step.

This is exactly what that dom did, of that girl I was talking about. Sometimes, when a dom is good at such manipulation, and a woman is just the weaker type, something as close to real slavery can happen.


Which is Internal Enslavement.

http://www.freewebs.com/lone-warrior/Search/page58.html



Aswad -> RE: Why A Slave? (6/3/2013 9:18:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

Sometimes, when a dom is good at such manipulation, and a woman is just the weaker type, something as close to real slavery can happen.


I'm not sure why you qualify it with "close to", as it seems to meet the basic minimum criterion: that it be "unthinkable" to flee or disobey. Nor am I sure why you think the woman necessarily has to be weak, or that it needs to be a woman on the receiving end, as a vast majority of humans seem more than a little susceptible to this sort of thing, provided the other party takes it slow enough for them to adjust.

How many men and women stay in relationships they probably should be getting out of?

For that matter, since we're more interested in healthy relationships here:

How many more would stay in relationships that have the same control elements, but in which they thrive?

IWYW,
— Aswad.



Greta75 -> RE: Why A Slave? (6/3/2013 9:24:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
I'm not sure why you qualify it with "close to", as it seems to meet the basic minimum criterion: that it be "unthinkable" to flee or disobey.

Close to, because it's not reality, the reality is, she has a choice, but she's been manupilated into believing she has no choice. Different from real real slavery in the past, where you don't have the law on your side if you choose to leave, you'd probably be captured by police and sent back to your owner. If this woman chooses to go, no police gonna wrap her up and send her back, they will rescue her. So very very close. It's his brilliant planning that convince her she is helpless and useless without him. And it is not easy to orchestrate such manipulation, takes crazy patience and self-control.
quote:

Nor am I sure why you think the woman necessarily has to be weak,

Because this specific method is specifically exploiting on a specific woman's weakness. Not all women can be easily manupilated like this. You have mentioned yourself that it takes a certain personality. The dom is just exploiting her flaws and using it to his advantage to create his desired lifestyle. You have also agreed that it is unethical. If it was ethical, then it wouldn't be exploiting weaknesses.



Greta75 -> RE: Why A Slave? (6/3/2013 9:31:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

By saying this, are you saying that if a man and a woman adhere strictly to gorean culture, it's not a "real relationship" anymore?

Please define "gorean culture". Many have tried, many have failed. Its been a topic of debate for as long as I have been around gor.

Gorean culture is a culture where women are not treated as equal human beings. Thus the same consideration and respect that they would extend to their fellow gorean men, are not extended to the females in Gor. For them to come to earth and simply kidnap women and whip them into slaves to be sold, already shows a huge disrespect. That is the book culture.
On earth, a few Gorean masters have already been arrested when they try to re-enact Gor, including the kidnappings. It's pretty tough to execute everything to the Tee on earth. So of course I accept Gorean Human man will have to exercise flexibility, if they don't want to get into trouble with the law.



tazzygirl -> RE: Why A Slave? (6/3/2013 9:33:59 PM)

quote:

Close to, because it's not reality, the reality is, she has a choice, but she's been manupilated into believing she has no choice. Different from real real slavery in the past, where you don't have the law on your side if you choose to leave, you'd probably be captured by police and sent back to your owner. If this woman chooses to go, no police gonna wrap her up and send her back, they will rescue her. So very very close. It's his brilliant planning that convince her she is helpless and useless without him. And it is not easy to orchestrate such manipulation, takes crazy patience and self-control.


And yet, in her mind, she has no choice. In her mind, there is no way out. In her mind, she is bound to him completely.

Stockholm syndrome ring a bell? This isnt all that much different.

quote:

Because this specific method is specifically exploiting on a specific woman's weakness. Not all women can be easily manupilated like this. You have mentioned yourself that it takes a certain personality. The dom is just exploiting her flaws and using it to his advantage to create his desired lifestyle. You have also agreed that it is unethical. If it was ethical, then it wouldn't be exploiting weaknesses.


Everyone has weaknesses that someone else can exploit. No one is exempt

He said most would consider that unethical. I have been in such a relationship. I didnt consider it unethical. Just merely him being a dominant who knew what he wanted and how to get it.



Greta75 -> RE: Why A Slave? (6/3/2013 9:35:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
He said most would consider that unethical. I have been in such a relationship. I didnt consider it unethical. Just merely him being a dominant who knew what he wanted and how to get it.

But you are fully aware of his actions and are in control of your own mind and actions, feeling like you have given permission makes a huge difference, and are not in tears crying about it, wanting to get out.
This other female was, she truly believe she has no escape, it was her reality in her mind.



tazzygirl -> RE: Why A Slave? (6/3/2013 9:42:52 PM)

quote:

Gorean culture is a culture where women are not treated as equal human beings.


No, we arent. We are different. Would it suprise you to know that, in the fantasy of the books, only 3% of the female population were slaves? The rest were not slaves. Many were not equal. Some even ruled "cities". Now bring that to earth. men have bosses, female bosses, that they do respect. Men have wives and daughters that they do respect. Men have female friends that they do respect.

quote:

Thus the same consideration and respect that they would extend to their fellow gorean men, are not extended to the females in Gor.


I completely disagree. As on earth, women in the "books" owned businesses, ran families, even ran cities and commanded Warriors.

quote:

For them to come to earth and simply kidnap women and whip them into slaves to be sold, already shows a huge disrespect.


To the victors go the spoils. Earth girls are easy... HAH! Couldnt resist that pun. You seem to have a misunderstanding of the place of women on gor. Barbarians, regardless of the culture, are seldom afforded any respect on the level you seem to be demanding. But even slaves were respected for the talents they possessed.

And lets not forget the main character in the books was from earth himself.

quote:

On earth, a few Gorean masters have already been arrested when they try to re-enact Gor, including the kidnappings.
It's pretty tough to execute everything to the Tee on earth. So of course I accept Gorean Human man will have to exercise flexibility, if they don't want to get into trouble with the law.


Would it surprise you to know that, in the books, men didnt kidnap women from their own city? And in those same books men lived by the rules of their cities. Keeping that in mind, men on earth should live by the rules of the community they live in. if the law says no kidnapping, then its no kidnapping.




JeffBC -> RE: Why A Slave? (6/3/2013 9:44:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75
Close to, because it's not reality, the reality is, she has a choice, but she's been manupilated into believing she has no choice.

One of the most important things in the books from my standpoint is that you cannot enslave a free person and you cannot free a slave. It has nothing to do with gender although Norman's gender biases are evident. The truth both on Gor and on Earth is that the only thing you can EVER do is manipulate someone into believing they have no choice.

Let me ask you a question... if I told Carol to cook me breakfast and she refused what could I do about it? I could glare at her. If that didn't work I could escalate and punish her in some way. But what if that didn't work? What if a gun to the head wouldn't work? The bottom line is that I cannot make her cook breakfast. I can only shape the choices she has and perceives she has and then let her decide what to do. Can you imagine me grabbing her arms and trying to move her around even enough to scramble eggs if she was actively resisting the whole time -- or even just being dead weight?

Do you have any idea how hard it would be to capture a human who didn't want to be captured -- and was willing to back up that desire with their life and the life of anyone around them?



tazzygirl -> RE: Why A Slave? (6/3/2013 9:44:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
He said most would consider that unethical. I have been in such a relationship. I didnt consider it unethical. Just merely him being a dominant who knew what he wanted and how to get it.

But you are fully aware of his actions and are in control of your own mind and actions, feeling like you have given permission makes a huge difference, and are not in tears crying about it, wanting to get out.
This other female was, she truly believe she has no escape, it was her reality in her mind.



Oh wow, how wrong you are. There were times I wanted out. There were times I was so confused I didnt know which way to turn. My best friends shoulder wore a lot of my tears then. It was a very very hard process. But, in the end, I loved him deeply, for the man he was.. which was extremely dominant and very determined. he set his course and would not waver. I was part of that course.



Aswad -> RE: Why A Slave? (6/3/2013 9:45:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Which is Internal Enslavement.


Exactly, but it's often more effective to outline the process than to refer to it by name in such a context. Most people know of cases where it's gone horribly, horribly wrong, and can relate to the power of the process involved, whereas it's easier to dismiss the influence when it's referred to by a BDSM buzzword.

Freedom and slavery are in the mind, as they've always been, with or without legal repercussions to make things more convenient for the owner. But slavery is sort of a magic thing in most people's minds. The average Roman slave knew two important things: (a) there were horrible consequences to getting caught for runing away, and (b) the likelihood of getting caught was next to nothing. Few chose to risk it. The prospect was too daunting.

Just like the prospect of leaving can be daunting to someone deep in the hold of internal enslavement:

0. Loss of the main source of purpose, direction, emotional support, identity, confidence, etc.
1. Overcoming the habits and identity elements of a lifetime to leave someone you love.
2. Facing friends, relatives, officials and professionals that don't understand.
3. Learning to live all over again as an adult, while not sure one even can.
4. Readjusting to a completely different life and rebuilding your identity.
5. Potentially little to no support network (an illusion, if you're ethical).
6. Facing shame, doubt and other phases of processing your past.
7. Going it alone or accepting a victim label to get help.
8. [... etc ...]

And that's not even covering basic things like substituting generalized stress tolerance for conditional stress tolerance, replacing self discipline with imposed discipline, and so forth. Very few things can motivate someone to endure all those changes, particularly if they're not "all miserable, all the time", and I'm inclined to think a lot of people would rather kill themselves than go through all that, if you've done it right. (Though, again, as a matter of ethics, you should set up some sort of safety net.) At that point, you've basically got ownership without the paperwork.

Easier to do with informed consent, easier to do if you're nice, and easier to do without a preexisting dynamic to interfere with pattern formation.

But absolutely doable, and perfectly legal in most jurisdictions.

IWYW,
— Aswad.



tazzygirl -> RE: Why A Slave? (6/3/2013 9:47:58 PM)

Good thing most dont know how to do it. [;)]



Greta75 -> RE: Why A Slave? (6/3/2013 9:48:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Oh wow, how wrong you are. There were times I wanted out. There were times I was so confused I didnt know which way to turn. My best friends shoulder wore a lot of my tears then. It was a very very hard process. But, in the end, I loved him deeply, for the man he was.. which was extremely dominant and very determined. he set his course and would not waver. I was part of that course.

Are you still with him?



Greta75 -> RE: Why A Slave? (6/3/2013 9:53:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
No, we arent. We are different. Would it suprise you to know that, in the fantasy of the books, only 3% of the female population were slaves? The rest were not slaves. Many were not equal. Some even ruled "cities". Now bring that to earth. men have bosses, female bosses, that they do respect. Men have wives and daughters that they do respect. Men have female friends that they do respect.

Yes there are plenty of free women, and the description of free women is as if they would never experience pleasures of flesh, that if they did, they would have to be enslaved.
I am not aware they don't enslave free women from their own cities, but I was pretty sure there was some free women who ended up being kidnapped into slaves as well, but probably from wandering into another territory. And then I am not sure if even if she can prove she is a free woman, will she ever be able to free herself and be a free woman again. Frankly, the fantasy is fun, the reality of living in a world like that for a woman is bone chilling. But it's culture too, we've all be raised to think that we have choices as human beings. In Gor, there is this huge possibility that your choice will be taken away from you, just be at the wrong place at the wrong time. And the difference is this. If this happen on earth, they are seen as bad people. But not in Gor, those are seen as, just normal culture. Not a criticism of Gor either, as once ya into bdsm, anything goes, it depends on individual kinks. We simply try to focus on whether it was consensual or not, all other elements, what they choose to do, it just another kink.



tazzygirl -> RE: Why A Slave? (6/3/2013 9:56:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Oh wow, how wrong you are. There were times I wanted out. There were times I was so confused I didnt know which way to turn. My best friends shoulder wore a lot of my tears then. It was a very very hard process. But, in the end, I loved him deeply, for the man he was.. which was extremely dominant and very determined. he set his course and would not waver. I was part of that course.

Are you still with him?


Oh no. He finally agreed to let me go. I started begging to leave 3 months after moving in. 4 years later he agreed. I left a few times, always went back... I felt like I needed him far too much, and he always took me back. We are both much happier now, I think, with our decision.



Greta75 -> RE: Why A Slave? (6/3/2013 10:06:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Oh no. He finally agreed to let me go. I started begging to leave 3 months after moving in. 4 years later he agreed. I left a few times, always went back... I felt like I needed him far too much, and he always took me back. We are both much happier now, I think, with our decision.

But why did you leave him if you enjoyed being with him in such a relationship? That took some serious strength to leave.
My view of this other chick is that she'll commit suicide when she chooses to leave, because to me, her state of mind was that bad.
I don't know if your man deprived you of friends and family contact, this woman was deprived big time. And she's too ashame to call her family and tell her family what happened to her, when she just disappeared from them, just like that, and knowing Asian parents, they would probably disown her because of the disgrace rather than try to help her.



tazzygirl -> RE: Why A Slave? (6/3/2013 10:06:46 PM)

quote:

Yes there are plenty of free women, and the description of free women is as if they would never experience pleasures of flesh, that if they did, they would have to be enslaved.


And yet the books also spoke about tying a FW to the slave ring at the end of the Master's bed. It really pays to read more than just a few books. Even in the fantasy there was a recognition that what happened in private was perfectly acceptable.

quote:

I am not aware they don't enslave free women from their own cities, but I was pretty sure there was some free women who ended up being kidnapped into slaves as well, but probably from wandering into another territory. And then I am not sure if even if she can prove she is a free woman, will she ever be able to free herself and be a free woman again.


A FW who acted in a slavish manner could be collared... because by her actions she was begging for it. Once collared, only a man can make her free again.

quote:

Frankly, the fantasy is fun, the reality of living in a world like that for a woman is bone chilling. But it's culture too, we've all be raised to think that we have choices as human beings. In Gor, there is this huge possibility that your choice will be taken away from you, just be at the wrong place at the wrong time.


Yes, we have been raised that way. I have all the choices in the world. I choose to live as his slave. And its more than just the wrong place at the wrong time, else the slave population would have been far greater than 3%.

quote:

If this happen on earth, they are seen as bad people. But not in Gor, those are seen as, just normal culture. Not a criticism of Gor either, as once ya into bdsm, anything goes, it depends on individual kinks. We simply try to focus on whether it was consensual or not, all other elements, what they choose to do, it just another kink.


The difference? Kink isnt a part of my world. Its a part of the man's if he desires. I have had non-sexual relationships, because thats what the man wanted. I have had relationships with totally non-kink included sex.. because thats what he wanted. I have been tossed against the wall, stripped bare, and told to stand there for hours while he went about his paperwork. I have spent hours acting as a table for a man so he had a table for his lap top.

Anything may go.. to a point. My point became when he said no.

As far as anything goes and it being consensual... it was hardly consensual when I was washing down walls, pulling out the stove to scrub behind it, getting up at 3 am to make him coffee when I didnt come in from work until 1 am.

The only consent with the men I prefer to engage in a relationship need is the consent to start the relationship. At that point, consent is given to cover everything. The minute I say "no", I cease to be his slave.



Aswad -> RE: Why A Slave? (6/3/2013 10:07:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

Close to, because it's not reality, the reality is, she has a choice, but she's been manupilated into believing she has no choice.


The human mind has no ability to choose an option it cannot conceive of.

The options you have is the intersection between the options you truly have and the options you believe yourself to have.

quote:

Different from real real slavery in the past, where you don't have the law on your side if you choose to leave, you'd probably be captured by police and sent back to your owner.


Police have never been omnipresent until the modern era, and most battered spouses go back to their abusers, so I'm inclined to think you're grossly overestimating the actual probabilities, as well as their influence on perceived risks. There is no need for the law when you can simply call her and tell her to get her ass back to you, with a reasonable expectation that she'll do precisely that, no matter what you've done.

quote:

If this woman chooses to go, no police gonna wrap her up and send her back, they will rescue her.


Rescue is a complicated proposition, and depends on circumstances. As a rule, she will eventually talk her way out of the clutches of her 'rescuers' and find her way back to you, unless she's actually declared incompetent or otherwise restrained against her will. Either way, that strikes me as non-consensual trauma inflicted by a third party, so I'm inclined to label it a problem, rather than a solution.

quote:

So very very close. It's his brilliant planning that convince her she is helpless and useless without him. And it is not easy to orchestrate such manipulation, takes crazy patience and self-control.


As evidenced by the number of utter losers that have done it, neither brilliance, nor crazy patience, nor self control is required. Results will be better with someone competent, of course, but that applies to any endeavour. Basically, if you can't think longer than "I wanna stick my dick in here", you'll find it hard to accomplish anything with a woman, willing or not.

quote:

Because this specific method is specifically exploiting on a specific woman's weakness.


No, it's exploiting human weaknesses. The ones I mentioned in the example paragraph will get better results per unit time invested, but that's a question of optimal strategy. Still, I'll cede that some people are vastly better suited than others, and that some people are largely impervious unless you bring force and/or isolation to the table.

quote:

Not all women can be easily manupilated like this. You have mentioned yourself that it takes a certain personality.


I don't care to make a binary division.

quote:

The dom is just exploiting her flaws and using it to his advantage to create his desired lifestyle.


"Flaws" is your assessment. "Traits" is mine.

If that sort of relationship is what both parties want, then those traits aren't flaws, but rather strengths that facilitate the mutually desired outcome.

quote:

You have also agreed that it is unethical. If it was ethical, then it wouldn't be exploiting weaknesses.


I never said it's unethical. I said many would consider it unethical.

With informed consent, I have no reservations against the use of Internal Enslavement techniques, for instance.

IWYW,
— Aswad.



tazzygirl -> RE: Why A Slave? (6/3/2013 10:08:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Oh no. He finally agreed to let me go. I started begging to leave 3 months after moving in. 4 years later he agreed. I left a few times, always went back... I felt like I needed him far too much, and he always took me back. We are both much happier now, I think, with our decision.

But why did you leave him if you enjoyed being with him in such a relationship? That took some serious strength to live.
My view of this other chick is that she'll commit suicide when she chooses to leave, because to me, her state of mind was that bad.
I don't know if your man deprived you of friends and family contact, this woman was deprived big time. And she's too ashame to call her family and tell her family what happened to her, when she just disappeared from them, just like that.


Because my leaving was what needed to happen for him to be truly happy. And when he realized that, he agreed.

The fact that she can contact her family tells me she doesnt really want to leave. She wants him to change. And until she realizes he wont change, she wont leave.



Aswad -> RE: Why A Slave? (6/3/2013 10:16:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

One of the most important things in the books from my standpoint is that you cannot enslave a free person and you cannot free a slave.


In essence, this comes down to a person's state of mind. Few things are immutable about humans. It's probably quite possible to change the state of mind of anyone to anything, given the right skillset, motivation and time. Effectively, there's a significant hysteresis involved, though. Once you come down on one side of the fence, there's a barrier to climbing it again. This is a property you'll find in many systems.

The key point is that it doesn't suffice to take the collar off a slave, or slap one on a free person. On some level, they have to seize freedom or relinquish it. You can't do either for them. But you can influence them in a direction. For instance, it's quite possible to use a temporary condition of slavery to raise awareness of freedom and prod someone to come down on the opposite side of the fence from what they're living like, which wasn't all that uncommon as a theme in the books.

quote:

It has nothing to do with gender although Norman's gender biases are evident.


NFS.

quote:

The truth both on Gor and on Earth is that the only thing you can EVER do is manipulate someone into believing they have no choice.


Agreed. Or manipulate someone into realizing they do have a choice.

quote:

Do you have any idea how hard it would be to capture a human who didn't want to be captured -- and was willing to back up that desire with their life and the life of anyone around them?


Such a human is pretty much the definition of a Free Wo/Man in a Gorean context (depending on what aspect you're discussing- lol- we've played with this a bit, haven't we?).

IWYW,
— Aswad.



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