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RE: UK apology for India massacre? - 2/22/2013 5:23:26 PM   
YN


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quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml


quote:

ORIGINAL: YN


quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml

The figures you have for the Atlantic slave trade include those transported by all nations.

I'm pretty sure your figures are way out.

Again, I don't think it damages your argument too much - Britain has a shitty past. But, claiming 10-15 deaths caused by the UK isn't supportable.



So as the English are admitted to controlling about half the total slave trade numerically during it's course would you think it fair to think them as being responsible for a similar proportion of the deaths?


No, I think that would be way too simplistic, besides, I think there are pretty accurate records, so it would be a matter of research.

Like I say.... it's a shameful part of the UK's history but...


Actually there are not very accurate records, slaves were often smuggled by both the English and others, to avoid taxes, or in places they were not taxed simply landed and sold, the academics seriously investigating the matter often make such notes while attempting to estimate the totals.

For example Jamaica (who taxed each slave upon import)was claimed to have a slave population at a certain time of about 300,000 and the life expectancy was said to be about 4 years for a plantation slave, yet the records only record a fraction of the necessary numbers of replacements being landed.

The records of Brasil were destroyed during the revolutions, the numbers know to have been landed there can only be calculated from secondary sources.

The records of many provinces of the Spanish Americas are also in similar disarray with other facts, there are census accounts that show easily double the slave numbers that the import numbers claim, as in the case of Columbia.

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RE: UK apology for India massacre? - 2/22/2013 5:30:02 PM   
WantsOfTheFlesh


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
You'll find ww1 and ww2 were two different wars, sweetie: the numbering's a clue.

nope, leading from tha end of ww1 as i said.

< Message edited by WantsOfTheFlesh -- 2/22/2013 6:07:52 PM >

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RE: UK apology for India massacre? - 2/22/2013 5:36:19 PM   
BamaD


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Status: offline 		Not to anyone in particular
It seems that this thread has gotten off track a bit. Yes the UK has made mistakes (done bad things) in their history. Every nation has. This isn't the "lets trash the Brits". The point is would there be any point to making an apology for each incident. Wouldn't apologizing for one mean they did not regret the others? Where does it end.
(for those from UK self defence is only natural and thus not derailment)

< Message edited by BamaD -- 2/22/2013 5:37:31 PM >

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RE: UK apology for India massacre? - 2/22/2013 5:46:37 PM   
herworshipper


Posts: 22
Joined: 1/26/2010
Status: offline 		I have heard of people who stil feel bad about what the Romans did. Empires are not created by accident. Maybe apologies are pointless.

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Profile   Post #: 144
RE: UK apology for India massacre? - 2/22/2013 5:52:34 PM   
Powergamz1


Posts: 1927
Joined: 9/3/2011
Status: offline 		So what is the approved method of apologizing for atrocities while at the same time denying they ever happened, and refusing to give back the stolen goods?

Oh wait, I guess we've just seen it.

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RE: UK apology for India massacre? - 2/22/2013 6:15:31 PM   
WantsOfTheFlesh


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
quote:

ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh
nope talking bout hitlers popularity today. he's an icon.

plus didnt a lotta indian pows switch to tha japs & germans?

You are correct in that some 40 or 50,000 Indian POWs fought for Japan. How many did this to escape the death camps I cant say.

On the otherside of the equation some 2.5 Indians volountered to join the British army. The largest Volounteer force in history. So I would think the numbers speak for themselves.

yup estimated at about 2 million but outta a huge population of approx 400 million. seems tha situation was complex. its said indians were not too interested in helping britain but that changed with japan invadng their lands. nippon was known for wanting to expand their empire & didnt have a nice guy rep so perhaps it was a better tha devil ya know type situation http://www.worldwar2database.com/html/india.htm

< Message edited by WantsOfTheFlesh -- 2/22/2013 6:35:28 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 146
RE: UK apology for India massacre? - 2/22/2013 6:17:06 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

So what is the approved method of apologizing for atrocities while at the same time denying they ever happened, and refusing to give back the stolen goods?

Oh wait, I guess we've just seen it.

How far back do you take the accounting should Italy rebuild Carthage? then do the Carthigians have to pay the Lybians? And Italy has to pay the French the valie of the whole country? Unworkable.

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Profile   Post #: 147
RE: UK apology for India massacre? - 2/22/2013 7:16:49 PM   
YN


Posts: 699
Status: offline 		And as noted who accepts the sincerity of any of these "apologyies?"

If King Carlos attempted to apologize for Spain, and citing the long history of the friendship and brotherhood between Latin America and Spain, he would be subject to more ridicule then if he kept his mouth shut, especially after demanding the contents of the Peruvian treasure ship.

In the case of India, David Cameron making statements of a similar nature likely falls upon a similar set of ears, especially while there soliciting for beneficial trade deals.

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Profile   Post #: 148
RE: UK apology for India massacre? - 2/23/2013 4:08:06 AM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: YN

The 10-15 million deaths caused by your English slave transportation wasn't enough of a world class atrocity to please you? It certainly topped the claim of 7 million Jews killed by the Germans or Pol Pots efforts as I claimed earlier. Never mind the hideous death toll on English plantations across the Americas.

Keep on defending England's past, you undo the work of any ten English who wish to move forward.


10 - 15 million........ Seems to me you pluck figures from thin air.

And if you ever paid attention, You would see I have already said the slave trade was abhorent.

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Profile   Post #: 149
RE: UK apology for India massacre? - 2/23/2013 4:12:50 AM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

So what is the approved method of apologizing for atrocities while at the same time denying they ever happened, and refusing to give back the stolen goods?

Oh wait, I guess we've just seen it.



You are clearly unable to distinguish between atrocity and famine, as shown by a lack of follow up to your claims regards 1943 in Bengal.

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Profile   Post #: 150
RE: UK apology for India massacre? - 2/23/2013 4:14:05 AM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: YN

In the case of India, David Cameron making statements of a similar nature likely falls upon a similar set of ears, especially while there soliciting for beneficial trade deals.


You can also note I said exactly this back near the start of the thread.

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Profile   Post #: 151
RE: UK apology for India massacre? - 2/23/2013 5:26:06 AM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

I've covered a list from the earliest national entity that could be seen as the beginning of GB/UK/England all the way through 2006 (and the OPs current refusal to consider returning stolen artifacts), with links to legitimate sources.


No you've not. You've certainly not provided any evidence for this:

quote:

A thousand years of the Empire raping the planet...


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Profile   Post #: 152
RE: UK apology for India massacre? - 2/23/2013 5:33:39 AM   
jlf1961


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From: Somewhere Texas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

I've covered a list from the earliest national entity that could be seen as the beginning of GB/UK/England all the way through 2006 (and the OPs current refusal to consider returning stolen artifacts), with links to legitimate sources.


No you've not. You've certainly not provided any evidence for this:

quote:

A thousand years of the Empire raping the planet...




Lets see, the British Empire rose in 1583, it is now 2013...

That is a span of 430 years....

430=1000 years...

Somehow the math just doesnt make sense... even if you use algebra.

And for the record, this was not about returning artifacts, it was about one old man in India demanding the UK apologize for a massacre.

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Profile   Post #: 153
RE: UK apology for India massacre? - 2/23/2013 5:39:09 AM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline 		Maybe if he'd apologised for the Indian mutiny first, the old fart might have a leg to stand on with that one, then.

As for the 430=1000, the British Empire was gone by the time the second world war started, so you can knock another fifty years off that for a start.
I wonder what colonial beastliness we were up to in the tenth century? That was back when we were effectively a Danish colony: not very imperialist, really...

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Profile   Post #: 154
RE: UK apology for India massacre? - 2/23/2013 6:18:45 AM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

Maybe if he'd apologised for the Indian mutiny first, the old fart might have a leg to stand on with that one, then.

As for the 430=1000, the British Empire was gone by the time the second world war started, so you can knock another fifty years off that for a start.
I wonder what colonial beastliness we were up to in the tenth century? That was back when we were effectively a Danish colony: not very imperialist, really...



Personally, I think the only thing the British have to apologize for is exporting Cricket. I mean come on, that game makes no sense whatsoever.

And the Spice Girls... you guys really should have kept them to yourself.

< Message edited by jlf1961 -- 2/23/2013 6:19:20 AM >

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Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

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Profile   Post #: 155
RE: UK apology for India massacre? - 2/23/2013 8:02:36 AM   
Powergamz1


Posts: 1927
Joined: 9/3/2011
Status: offline 		You can keep repeating that denier nonense all you want, anyone can scroll back through this thread and the other one, and read exactly what I've posted.
Or they can read a couple of history books and see what an enormous string of abominations you keep pretending never happened.



quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

I've covered a list from the earliest national entity that could be seen as the beginning of GB/UK/England all the way through 2006 (and the OPs current refusal to consider returning stolen artifacts), with links to legitimate sources.


No you've not. You've certainly not provided any evidence for this:

quote:

A thousand years of the Empire raping the planet...




_____________________________

"DOMA is unconstitutional as a deprivation of the equal liberty of persons that is protected by the Fifth Amendment" Anthony McLeod Kennedy

" About damn time...wooot!!' Me

(in reply to Moonhead)
Profile   Post #: 156
RE: UK apology for India massacre? - 2/23/2013 8:08:34 AM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

I've covered a list from the earliest national entity that could be seen as the beginning of GB/UK/England all the way through 2006 (and the OPs current refusal to consider returning stolen artifacts), with links to legitimate sources.




quote:

A thousand years of the Empire raping the planet...



You still have not explained how an empire that has only been in existence for 430 years has been raping the planet for a thousand.


_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to Powergamz1)
Profile   Post #: 157
RE: UK apology for India massacre? - 2/23/2013 8:20:48 AM   
Powergamz1


Posts: 1927
Joined: 9/3/2011
Status: offline 		Try again. Actually read a history book instead of cherry picking factoids.


The inhabitants of that rock started crowning kings and killing other people in the name of the Crown in 871AD.
They formalized that into empire building in 1066, and the current Crown traces it's domain via coat of arms back to Henry C. in 1153.

So the trail of bodies and stolen lands that built the Anglo/British/English/UK/GB/Commonwealth goes back at least 10 centuries.

For the record, denying that holocaust by playing word and number games, is no better than using the same tricks to deny the Armenian holocaust, or the Shoah.



quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

I've covered a list from the earliest national entity that could be seen as the beginning of GB/UK/England all the way through 2006 (and the OPs current refusal to consider returning stolen artifacts), with links to legitimate sources.


No you've not. You've certainly not provided any evidence for this:

quote:

A thousand years of the Empire raping the planet...




Lets see, the British Empire rose in 1583, it is now 2013...

That is a span of 430 years....

430=1000 years...

Somehow the math just doesnt make sense... even if you use algebra.

And for the record, this was not about returning artifacts, it was about one old man in India demanding the UK apologize for a massacre.



_____________________________

"DOMA is unconstitutional as a deprivation of the equal liberty of persons that is protected by the Fifth Amendment" Anthony McLeod Kennedy

" About damn time...wooot!!' Me

(in reply to jlf1961)
Profile   Post #: 158
RE: UK apology for India massacre? - 2/23/2013 8:22:12 AM   
Powergamz1


Posts: 1927
Joined: 9/3/2011
Status: offline 		Bullshit.
quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

I've covered a list from the earliest national entity that could be seen as the beginning of GB/UK/England all the way through 2006 (and the OPs current refusal to consider returning stolen artifacts), with links to legitimate sources.




quote:

A thousand years of the Empire raping the planet...



You still have not explained how an empire that has only been in existence for 430 years has been raping the planet for a thousand.




_____________________________

"DOMA is unconstitutional as a deprivation of the equal liberty of persons that is protected by the Fifth Amendment" Anthony McLeod Kennedy

" About damn time...wooot!!' Me

(in reply to jlf1961)
Profile   Post #: 159
RE: UK apology for India massacre? - 2/23/2013 8:41:14 AM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline 		First the kingdom of England came into existence in 927AD, after a gathering of kings (note the plural) at Edmont Bridge. This meeting effectively united all the kingdoms on the Island under one rule.

Of course, you conveniently forgot about William the Conqueror's invasion, and the conquest of Wales by Edward I, who was a Norman king.

England's move toward empire building could be traced to the Plantagenet Kings during the Hundred Years war, but they only wanted France, something to do with various royal marriages between the two royal families, but that is more of a line of succession disagreement than an actual attempt at empire building.

Now before you use the phrase, "read a book" I suggest you do some fucking research. My personal library is mostly history texts covering the period from Ancient Greece to the modern era, and they are the sources I used for all my college papers and master's degree work.

And even using the date you plucked out of the air, it still does not add up to a thousand years.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to Powergamz1)
Profile   Post #: 160
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