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RE: Single Payer for Dummies - 3/4/2013 2:08:54 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
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quote:

Health care only prolongs life. It can not cause death. I won't get all snarky and bring up those that get infections from being in a hospital because any of those deaths are, again, due to the infection and not the care.


Good, then we agree preventative care is the best way to go to prevent even the need for most emergency care visits.

quote:

It's typically because you don't die from inadequate access (everyone has access to ER care),


They do? Really?

http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2012/04/23/massachusetts_cites_3_hospitals_for_inappropriate_care_of_patients_in_emergency_rooms/

Health officials cited three Massachusetts hospitals in the past six months for wrongly sending away patients from their emergency rooms, in one case resulting in the death of a patient while en route to another facility.

That patient went, was turned away, then died.

Its happened before. Having the federal mandate is great, hospitals will be fined, maybe even lose their medicare contracts... but that doesnt do anything for the patient that dies.

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Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
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Profile   Post #: 61
RE: Single Payer for Dummies - 3/4/2013 7:14:59 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
quote:

Health care only prolongs life. It can not cause death. I won't get all snarky and bring up those that get infections from being in a hospital because any of those deaths are, again, due to the infection and not the care.

Good, then we agree preventative care is the best way to go to prevent even the need for most emergency care visits.
quote:

It's typically because you don't die from inadequate access (everyone has access to ER care),

They do? Really?
http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2012/04/23/massachusetts_cites_3_hospitals_for_inappropriate_care_of_patients_in_emergency_rooms/
Health officials cited three Massachusetts hospitals in the past six months for wrongly sending away patients from their emergency rooms, in one case resulting in the death of a patient while en route to another facility.
That patient went, was turned away, then died.
Its happened before. Having the federal mandate is great, hospitals will be fined, maybe even lose their medicare contracts... but that doesnt do anything for the patient that dies.


I'm sure that happens all the time. Shit is going to happen, tazzy. Get the fuck over it. There is a Federal mandate the hospital didn't follow. The hospital will pay the price for that. Are you certain the family can't sue for negligent homicide? I'm not saying they can, but if the hospital was negligent in following the law, then, wouldn't that make for a case?

Ramp up the fines and open it to civil liability if you want. I'd be okay with that.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

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Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Single Payer for Dummies - 3/4/2013 7:17:58 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

I'm sure that happens all the time. Shit is going to happen, tazzy. Get the fuck over it. There is a Federal mandate the hospital didn't follow. The hospital will pay the price for that. Are you certain the family can't sue for negligent homicide? I'm not saying they can, but if the hospital was negligent in following the law, then, wouldn't that make for a case?

Ramp up the fines and open it to civil liability if you want. I'd be okay with that.


So a fist full of money is better than a life?

Thats what is wrong with the whole system to begin with.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Single Payer for Dummies - 3/4/2013 7:45:22 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
quote:

I'm sure that happens all the time. Shit is going to happen, tazzy. Get the fuck over it. There is a Federal mandate the hospital didn't follow. The hospital will pay the price for that. Are you certain the family can't sue for negligent homicide? I'm not saying they can, but if the hospital was negligent in following the law, then, wouldn't that make for a case?
Ramp up the fines and open it to civil liability if you want. I'd be okay with that.

So a fist full of money is better than a life?
Thats what is wrong with the whole system to begin with.


Shit is always going to happen, tazzy. Always. You can't prevent accidents. No, money isn't going to replace the life, but it helps, and, it would also increase the sting of the penalty on the hospital. A bigger reminder for them the next time.




_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Single Payer for Dummies - 3/4/2013 8:07:16 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

No, money isn't going to replace the life, but it helps, and, it would also increase the sting of the penalty on the hospital.


Losing a father, bread winner, husband, son.... who knows how many other hats... can be helped by tossing money at the family? And what of those who have no family? Who is going to sue then?

Shit is going to happen... every minute of every hour of everyday.

Instead of making hospitals just financially liable, why not criminally liable as well?

Start by getting politicians out of health care. They had no business there to begin with.


_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Single Payer for Dummies - 3/5/2013 4:01:35 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
quote:

No, money isn't going to replace the life, but it helps, and, it would also increase the sting of the penalty on the hospital.

Losing a father, bread winner, husband, son.... who knows how many other hats... can be helped by tossing money at the family? And what of those who have no family? Who is going to sue then?


First off, if we're talking about a family that has lost someone, anyone, due to negligence, absolutely money is more helpful than no money. It won't heal the loss, but it helps.

quote:

Shit is going to happen... every minute of every hour of everyday.
Instead of making hospitals just financially liable, why not criminally liable as well?
Start by getting politicians out of health care. They had no business there to begin with.


Hmmm... this is something I completely agree with, and thought we didn't agree on...


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Single Payer for Dummies - 3/5/2013 4:39:09 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		DS, you obviously have not been listening to me if you thought that.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Single Payer for Dummies - 3/5/2013 5:21:53 AM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
quote:

It's typically because you don't die from inadequate access (everyone has access to ER care),

They do? Really?

You know, even if you ran with this idea, it's hard for me to think that emergency care on a walk-in basis is even remotely comparable to actually having access to the health care system in a non-emergency mode. I just have to believe that people avoid going to the ER for "wellness care" so instead shit that should have been small potatoes turns into big problems. THEN they go to the ER.

The study notes that social inequality is a prime driver of poor health outcomes in the US. While the average income of Americans is higher than in the other countries studied, the authors write, the US has higher levels of poverty, particularly among children. This, combined with “income inequality and lower rates of social mobility,” is one of the greatest contributing factors to both lower life expectancy and poor health overall.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/us-life-expectancy-lowest-among-industrialized-countries/5318672

The figures reported are stark. The gap in life expectancy between the most socially privileged and the most socially disadvantaged groups in American society is more than 10 years for women and more than 14 years for men. The authors write: “These gaps have widened over time and have led to at least two ‘Americas’…”
http://www.globalresearch.ca/life-expectancy-falling-for-the-poorest-americans/5305758

You can go ahead and google for other such reports. It wont' be hard to find them. But when you create a society where there are two classes -- fabulously wealthy and dirt-poor with near zero class mobility it's sort of predictable that those in the bottom class are going to suffer for it.

Yes, people are dying for these decisions. Perhaps they don't normally die in the streets and if they do I'm sure the city sweeps them up and tosses the corpses somewhere so it doesn't offend the rest of our sensibilities, but they are dying all the same. The statistics show that. There are other causes which factor prominently into this... gun violence high on that list. But poor people don't live as long as rich people in the US. That passes the "makes sense" test in my mind. I'm surprised it doesn't in yours.

< Message edited by JeffBC -- 3/5/2013 5:23:42 AM >

_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Single Payer for Dummies - 3/5/2013 5:32:17 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

You know, even if you ran with this idea, it's hard for me to think that emergency care on a walk-in basis is even remotely comparable to actually having access to the health care system in a non-emergency mode. I just have to believe that people avoid going to the ER for "wellness care" so instead shit that should have been small potatoes turns into big problems. THEN they go to the ER.


My response was dripping with sarcasm. Yes, I know many will wait until they are so sick they have no choice but to seek out an ER because they dont have the money to go to a Dr when it was manageable.

quote:

Yes, people are dying for these decisions. Perhaps they don't normally die in the streets and if they do I'm sure the city sweeps them up and tosses the corpses somewhere so it doesn't offend the rest of our sensibilities, but they are dying all the same. The statistics show that. There are other causes which factor prominently into this... gun violence high on that list. But poor people don't live as long as rich people in the US. That passes the "makes sense" test in my mind. I'm surprised it doesn't in yours.


I have posted many times about the costs of care for high BP, for example. We can pay 300 for bp meds, 15000 for a heart attack, 900 x 3 times a week dialysis treatments... which is cheaper?

So, yes, I get what you are saying.

You missed my sarcasm and the reason for the link.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to JeffBC)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Single Payer for Dummies - 3/5/2013 5:33:45 AM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline 		Actually... the response was meant for DS and I just forgot who I had quoted for the original quote. Apologies.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Single Payer for Dummies - 3/5/2013 5:37:49 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		Oops... lol... thats ok.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to JeffBC)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Single Payer for Dummies - 3/5/2013 10:15:22 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
quote:

It's typically because you don't die from inadequate access (everyone has access to ER care),

They do? Really?

You know, even if you ran with this idea, it's hard for me to think that emergency care on a walk-in basis is even remotely comparable to actually having access to the health care system in a non-emergency mode. I just have to believe that people avoid going to the ER for "wellness care" so instead shit that should have been small potatoes turns into big problems. THEN they go to the ER.
The study notes that social inequality is a prime driver of poor health outcomes in the US. While the average income of Americans is higher than in the other countries studied, the authors write, the US has higher levels of poverty, particularly among children. This, combined with “income inequality and lower rates of social mobility,” is one of the greatest contributing factors to both lower life expectancy and poor health overall.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/us-life-expectancy-lowest-among-industrialized-countries/5318672
The figures reported are stark. The gap in life expectancy between the most socially privileged and the most socially disadvantaged groups in American society is more than 10 years for women and more than 14 years for men. The authors write: “These gaps have widened over time and have led to at least two ‘Americas’…”
http://www.globalresearch.ca/life-expectancy-falling-for-the-poorest-americans/5305758
You can go ahead and google for other such reports. It wont' be hard to find them. But when you create a society where there are two classes -- fabulously wealthy and dirt-poor with near zero class mobility it's sort of predictable that those in the bottom class are going to suffer for it.
Yes, people are dying for these decisions. Perhaps they don't normally die in the streets and if they do I'm sure the city sweeps them up and tosses the corpses somewhere so it doesn't offend the rest of our sensibilities, but they are dying all the same. The statistics show that. There are other causes which factor prominently into this... gun violence high on that list. But poor people don't live as long as rich people in the US. That passes the "makes sense" test in my mind. I'm surprised it doesn't in yours.


I have no disagreement that preventive medicine is cheaper and better than reactive medicine. Living healthy is cheaper than reactive medicine, too, but that isn't as juicy as drugs to correct poor lifestyles. Clean living would also reduce the need for many physician visits (no, not all), and would reduce the amount of medications we rely on.

This would also be likely to not be a huge problem with the Ceiling and Floor plan.




_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to JeffBC)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Single Payer for Dummies - 3/5/2013 11:08:28 AM   
JeffBC


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Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Living healthy is cheaper than reactive medicine, too, but that isn't as juicy as drugs to correct poor lifestyles. Clean living would also reduce the need for many physician visits (no, not all), and would reduce the amount of medications we rely on.

This is true. How it is handled in Canada though is that if you are trying to stop smoking, stop drinking, or other clean living crap you are not demonized. Quite the contrary you are swept into the system with open arms. BC, at least, gets it that whether or not you feel the person shouldn't have done these things to start with you still have to deal with the status quo. They did do them and now they are unhealthy and it's best to fix that.

quote:

This would also be likely to not be a huge problem with the Ceiling and Floor plan.

Can you elaborate on how this "ceiling and floor plan" is different than "an insurance plan"? In the end, isn't it just saying "here's what's covered"? What am I missing here?

I'd like to return to a point you made earlier though. YOu were, I thought, espousing the idea that people really did have access to medical care because they could do the "walk into the ER" thing. My rebuttal was "yes and it costs them between 10 and 14 years of their lifespan". More, it seems sort of obvious that it would have some non-trivial effect even though I can see several ways to debate the 10-14 year figure.

Honestly, the two most sensible parts of BC that I see are

a) The health care system
b) The minimum wage

There is just so much less suffering here and it's so much cheaper all the way around. I'd love to see similar things imported into the US.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Single Payer for Dummies - 3/5/2013 5:44:34 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Living healthy is cheaper than reactive medicine, too, but that isn't as juicy as drugs to correct poor lifestyles. Clean living would also reduce the need for many physician visits (no, not all), and would reduce the amount of medications we rely on.

This is true. How it is handled in Canada though is that if you are trying to stop smoking, stop drinking, or other clean living crap you are not demonized. Quite the contrary you are swept into the system with open arms. BC, at least, gets it that whether or not you feel the person shouldn't have done these things to start with you still have to deal with the status quo. They did do them and now they are unhealthy and it's best to fix that.
quote:

This would also be likely to not be a huge problem with the Ceiling and Floor plan.

Can you elaborate on how this "ceiling and floor plan" is different than "an insurance plan"? In the end, isn't it just saying "here's what's covered"? What am I missing here?
I'd like to return to a point you made earlier though. YOu were, I thought, espousing the idea that people really did have access to medical care because they could do the "walk into the ER" thing. My rebuttal was "yes and it costs them between 10 and 14 years of their lifespan". More, it seems sort of obvious that it would have some non-trivial effect even though I can see several ways to debate the 10-14 year figure.
Honestly, the two most sensible parts of BC that I see are
a) The health care system
b) The minimum wage
There is just so much less suffering here and it's so much cheaper all the way around. I'd love to see similar things imported into the US.


Well, we seem to be getting along quite well, and I'm sure that's going to take a hit right about.... now.

I don't see health care as a right. I don't see how something that has to be produced by someone else can be a right. Morally, it's correct to provide care to someone when it's needed, but that's still not a right. If I have a right to something, to me, that means I get to make the decisions regarding that thing. Private Property rights means I get to decide what happens to my private property. If I'm not the one making those decisions, then, do I actually own those rights? Until I trade those rights away, they are mine. I might decide to barter for something, or use a monetary exchange. All in all, there is some manner of transfer of those rights. For me to decide what you have to do with private property you have rights over, is an infringement of those rights.

I also don't believe anyone has a right to a certain wage floor. If the value your work isn't worth whatever is decided the minimum wage is, what gives you the right to earn that wage? Business owners trade their dollars for your work. You give up the rights to your labor in exchange for their rights over some of their money. The more valuable your labor, the more money you should get in exchange. If your wage isn't worth shit, why should you get paid more than shit?

I also take issue with the Federal Government not negotiating reimbursements. I think it is wrong for government to simply put a price on something, regardless of whether or not the Market agrees (or in which direction it disagrees). If you negotiate a price, then both sides come away with something.

What would happen if every single physician in the US decided that Medicare/Medicaid didn't pay enough and that they weren't going to accept Medicare as payment? No, that would never happen, and that's mostly because I do believe physicians, by and large, are seeking humanitarian ends in becoming physicians. But, what if? What would happen? What would the response of Government be?

What would happen if we just made the decision that the minimum wage should be $20/hr? Quit pussyfooting around with the little increases here and there and just jump it up? Would the value of an unskilled laborer's labor miraculously increase? What would happen to the guy that had been working his ass off for 15 years and finally made it to $20/hr? Now, you have entry level workers making the same?!? Unions should worship raising the minimum wage. That's pretty much a guarantee to come up during the next contract negotiations, if not forced sooner. Wages going up without comparable increases in production will only mean inflation. And, now, you have a person making $20/hr that has a real value equal to what we have now. What happens? More pressure to increase the minimum wage.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to JeffBC)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Single Payer for Dummies - 3/5/2013 6:54:55 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

I don't see health care as a right. I don't see how something that has to be produced by someone else can be a right. Morally, it's correct to provide care to someone when it's needed, but that's still not a right. If I have a right to something, to me, that means I get to make the decisions regarding that thing. Private Property rights means I get to decide what happens to my private property. If I'm not the one making those decisions, then, do I actually own those rights? Until I trade those rights away, they are mine. I might decide to barter for something, or use a monetary exchange. All in all, there is some manner of transfer of those rights. For me to decide what you have to do with private property you have rights over, is an infringement of those rights.


Is health care a luxury? Nope. Its something everyone will access at some point in their lives.

I see it as a necessity, not only for the individual but for society as a whole. I see it as no different than the police department, fire department, paid for by our taxes.

Would we be screwed if they decided to stop practicing? Sure. Will they? Nope.

As far as refusing Medicare, they have three contracting options. That bit doesnt make for a great sound bite so they leave that part out.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Single Payer for Dummies - 3/6/2013 5:49:24 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
quote:

I don't see health care as a right. I don't see how something that has to be produced by someone else can be a right. Morally, it's correct to provide care to someone when it's needed, but that's still not a right. If I have a right to something, to me, that means I get to make the decisions regarding that thing. Private Property rights means I get to decide what happens to my private property. If I'm not the one making those decisions, then, do I actually own those rights? Until I trade those rights away, they are mine. I might decide to barter for something, or use a monetary exchange. All in all, there is some manner of transfer of those rights. For me to decide what you have to do with private property you have rights over, is an infringement of those rights.

Is health care a luxury? Nope. Its something everyone will access at some point in their lives.


What do you need more, tazzy, food or health care? I completely agree that health care is a need. It is not a right, however. Huge difference. And, because it is a need, there have been entrepreneurs who have built their lives around filling that need, or at least, offering options for people to get that need filled. Why do these people not have the right to determine the exchange rate of the products or services they offer?

quote:

I see it as a necessity, not only for the individual but for society as a whole. I see it as no different than the police department, fire department, paid for by our taxes.


Do the police have to protect you?

Are taxes everyone pays the only way firefighters are paid?

It is damn good that there are options available for the provision of health care. If nothing else, it is humane.

quote:

Would we be screwed if they decided to stop practicing? Sure. Will they? Nope.


Agreed. But, that wasn't the question. What would the response of government be if they did? How about if half the providers quit? What would government do if enough providers simply stopped providing?

quote:

As far as refusing Medicare, they have three contracting options. That bit doesnt make for a great sound bite so they leave that part out.


Regardless of how many options are available, what if they stopped seeing those patients or didn't accept that plan? What would the next step be for government?


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Single Payer for Dummies - 3/6/2013 7:10:21 AM   
tj444


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Joined: 3/7/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
What would the response of government be if they did? How about if half the providers quit? What would government do if enough providers simply stopped providing?

Regardless of how many options are available, what if they stopped seeing those patients or didn't accept that plan? What would the next step be for government?

that would be like them going on strike.. how long could they hold out without working? how much will it cost them for each day they stopped providing? Imo, I would say that the govt can hold out a lot longer than strikers can.. especially when the mortgages on their McMansions are due and what doctor wants to tell his/her spouse that they gotta return that new mercedes?

And in Canada, certain medical workers are considered an essential service and they cant really strike, sometimes they do try but tend to get legislated back to work (while the union & the govt continue to work on an agreement on raises, etc or arbitration).. Striking has not really worked very well for them..

Not to mention that striking is pretty bad PR for those providers..

just sayin'

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RE: Single Payer for Dummies - 3/6/2013 7:43:08 AM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Well, we seem to be getting along quite well, and I'm sure that's going to take a hit right about.... now.

Heh... good guess but incorrect :)

I don't see them as "rights" either. Let's be clear here. I believe in the fact that there are wolves and sheep. I believe the wolves will always prey on the sheep. However, I also understand that humans are not sheep. In fact we're the most vicious and capable predator on the planet. What that means is that if you rile the sheep too much you end up with "off with their heads". That is the automatic rebalancing action to going too far (however "too far" is defined"). So I'd like to give everyone access to health care because I believe it stabilizes the society and pacifies the sheep. I see it as cheap lubrication in the gears of society. I'm betting that wasn't the bleeding heart answer you were looking for.

With minimum wage I just am currently looking at that as the best way to handle what is happening right now in the economy. As I have said (and documented) before, too much money has sloshed over to one corner of the pool. There isn't enough money left to make an economy happen. Poor people just plain don't buy shit because they cannot and the rich cannot make up for that. Realistically, a functioning economy needs both supply and demand but the demand part has to have some cash to back up it's demands with. So in my head I ponder things like legislating min/max ratios of some sort to prevent the crap that is going on now. Just to be clear, in the US corporations are paying something like 20x more than they need to for talent at the upper levels. It's just plain theft. It's not honoring the "return maximum to shareholders" principle. It's not really doing much of anything other than shovelling a bunch of money to people who don't deserve it because they have accumulated enough wealth = power to change the rules.

Also, on the minimum wage side I dislike financing the Walton's payroll for them. If they (or any business) is paying below living wages for workers then it gets made up in public assistance or people starve. I'd rather force the business model to reflect reality. While I was at it I'd want to take a look at cutting two jobs into one in order to avoid paying benefits and other crap like that.

Insofar as the "miraculous increase", it's already happened. Worker productivity has steadily gone up over the last 30 years. It's just the workers saw none of that increase go to them. In fact, labor wages declined while capital wealth increased. So it's not like there isn't enough productivity to solve the problem. We just need to find some way to stop CEO pay multiples in the 400-500:1 range.

By the way, I live in a place that has done what you said. Yup, they pay a lot more to a McDonald's worker here than in the states. Accordingly, I pay more for a burger when I go into McDonalds. Rather than terminating the economy it seems to actually promote an economy. Money in motion is what we want to see and by making the costs of that burger equal the real costs of the burger they have encouraged more motion and less shifting of cost from private to public sector. Fast food joints, gas stations and the like seem to do just fine here.

Finally, I admit to an aesthetic value here. As much as I get wolves & sheep I'd prefer if people were not suffering in misery if that's possible. But I readily grant that's only an aesthetic and bears nothing other than subjective weight... at least in the US which doesn't really acknowledge anything like "human rights". Here in Canada things are different and there are specific delineated human rights and the supreme court makes decisions based on them.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Single Payer for Dummies - 3/6/2013 8:46:24 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
What would the response of government be if they did? How about if half the providers quit? What would government do if enough providers simply stopped providing?
Regardless of how many options are available, what if they stopped seeing those patients or didn't accept that plan? What would the next step be for government?

that would be like them going on strike.. how long could they hold out without working? how much will it cost them for each day they stopped providing? Imo, I would say that the govt can hold out a lot longer than strikers can.. especially when the mortgages on their McMansions are due and what doctor wants to tell his/her spouse that they gotta return that new mercedes?
And in Canada, certain medical workers are considered an essential service and they cant really strike, sometimes they do try but tend to get legislated back to work (while the union & the govt continue to work on an agreement on raises, etc or arbitration).. Striking has not really worked very well for them..
Not to mention that striking is pretty bad PR for those providers..
just sayin'


Striking? No. How about "retiring?"

Gov: We're only going to pay you $X amount.

Care Providers: Okay. We're done. <closes down>


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to tj444)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Single Payer for Dummies - 3/6/2013 8:49:24 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline
quote:


Care Providers: Okay. We're done. <closes down>


And goes where?  Bangladesh?



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Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 80
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