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RE: Part of the problem with guns, - 3/5/2013 3:49:32 PM   
herworshipper


Posts: 22
Joined: 1/26/2010
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I may as well weigh in with my two cents. I think that there is a good reason we have different tiers of government. City, county, state and Fed.
We should not relly on the feds to solve our problems with blanket solutions. New York City should not be prohibited from enacting and enforcing whatever gun laws make their citizens feel safe. Rural communities with lots of hunters should not be forced to make otherwise good citizens into criminals.

Having said that, i would say that criminals are a special case. People who obey laws usually do not kill people in the first place. People who are willing to murder people, especially on a regular basis will not be bothered by wether their weapon is legal or obtained via legal means.

We are number one for gun ownership? What about Switzerland? I thought everyone there was required to keep weapons at home in case they get called up by the miliary. Isn't there something similar in Israel?


(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Part of the problem with guns, - 3/5/2013 4:42:24 PM   
TricklessMagic


Posts: 248
Joined: 9/14/2009
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Getting a private gun in Israel is surprisingly difficult, at least if you do it legally. Mind you, you are talking about a nation that rose up armed from illegal arms manufacturing so while legal guns are difficult to get. Trust me, illegal guns are very easy to get. The same tools it takes to make a bicycle will let you make a Sten MKII as well, or a Steriling, or a Grease Gun, or a PPSH43 (I don't include the 41 because of the wood stock), a little more engineering intelligence and Colt 1991A1s aren't that far off, or Tokarev TT-33s for that matter. You could try Walthers if you wanted the headache or poor engineering when compared to a 1911 or Tokarev TT-33. Take some time to learn about the Khyber Pass. They are still making guns there with technology not much greater than the late eighteen hundred and the guns and ammo are sophisticated pieces. The Tokarev had for the longest time been the most replicated but now they are off to guns from Turkish manufacturers. God Bless them.

Also bear in mind Israel made a great deal of ammunition out of brass lipstick tubes. If you ever want an education in low grade weapons fabrication sit down with a Hagannah vet of the 1948 war. Or just go to Miami and look for an Orthodox Temple, you'll find lots of Palmachi sitting around if you know whom to look for. Switzerland is another story. Militia service requires storage of your service rifle in the home. Up until 1999 private ownership was incredibly easy as well as concealed carry. The the damn liberal mostly emigrating from France changed that and low and behold crime has started to rise up in Switzerland at frightening rates. Before 1999 any Swiss citizen could easily get a machine gun with some mindless paperwork, no machine gun ban registry like we got 1986. Now it is virtually impossible even though legal private machine guns have never been used in a crime in Switzerland but for one Iranian nut who used this Militia issued Sig 556 to gun down some people. So Swiss nationals got to pay the price. But yes the 2nd highest nation is Yemen and while the government passes laws the citizens don't give a fly fuck and keep their traditions.

On a side note look into the poorly fabricated guns come out of Chechnya, and the ones that came out of Vietnam during the Vietnam war.

If you've heard anything about 3D printed guns and 3D printers (God Bless defcad.org) you'll see the insurrectionist mindset is quickly growing in this country. Instead though no one really belongs to a "militia" that's pure foolishness. Too public. Now folks are preppers. Preparing for when society falls apart as the indicators show. Preparing for God knows what and then some.

If the left gets its way. The best thing the freedom loving patriots can do is to heavily arm criminals with homemade firearms. I mean dropping a good ten thousand in each state with ten rounds of ammunition per gun. A bit difficult but if ten thousand patriots did their part it wouldn't be too difficult. Set the wolves to the necks of the chickens and let them feast.

The trouble with the idea of letting anti-gun folks be is too often they act like metasticizing (spelling I know) cancer cells and they spread their disease of craven self-victimization. If we could get all the self-victimizers to stay in California, Chicago, D.C., Maryland, New York City, etc. then we could stomach them. But no they take their failed ideas and spread them to otherwise good communities and states. You ever want some context on our nation's crime problem. Watch Gangland. You'll see crime tends to follow certain demographics, and we are to P.C. of a nation to admit certain obvious facts, but we'll blame "White Flight" on why neighborhoods turn bad.

What I've told some antis is very simple. No compromise. If anything I'm going to work on circumventing their desires in every way possible. If I can (and I'm in the middle of trying) put out a free booklet on legitimate homemade guns and ammo and show that armed resistance is not only possible but easy, then I'm going to. And by easy I mean nothing more sophisticated then a low-grade welding torch and a dremel. And I hope others learn to do so as well. That should the left's dream of a gun free America ever start to begin, it'll be short lived, and the cancer of their existence shall be cleansed by those who value liberty over government weak security. Remember a war on America's armed forces is a fool's errand, but a war on the constituents of anti-guns is more than plausible for a war for liberty has no collateral damage, just necessary evils. Just a hypothetical we should bear in mind.


(in reply to herworshipper)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Part of the problem with guns, - 3/5/2013 5:05:28 PM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SUSSEXDOMMALE

I think both sides miss the point

Guns for hunting, by the rednecks are all good. 12 bore shot guns, .22 rifles etc are for hunting.

BUT

Handguns, semi automatic rifles, machine guns etc are not for hunting. There is no logical reason that these can be sold.

the stats do not lie

Compare the UK (where even hand guns are illegal and the usa. in 2012 the UK has 312 fatal shootings. The USA has 14000+

uk population around 60 million

usa population around 310 million

On the face of it both are developed to a similar level, and have many things in common. Gun murder rate, thankfully is not one of them

Violent crime UK vs US

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_tot_cri-crime-total-crimes

UK population 60 Mil/6.5 Mil violent crimes =10.8% violent crime rate

US population 310 Mil/11.9 Mil violent crimes = 3.8% violent crime rate

Maybe YOU need to get your shit together before telling someone else how to run their country.

_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Part of the problem with guns, - 3/5/2013 9:20:30 PM   
TizzyTara


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Joined: 11/30/2012
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I saw a photo on fb of a really pretty hand gun - it had a pink handle with a skull on it - well, I wasn't keen on the skull bit - but I liked the pink colour. I think guns are good for self defence. And if Americans gave up their guns then they would all become victims and get killed by the criminals with guns. I say, everyone should carry a gun.

(in reply to epiphiny43)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Part of the problem with guns, - 3/5/2013 9:38:58 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TizzyTara

I say, everyone should carry a gun.



This is a ridiculous position. Carrying a firearm means carrying a load of personal responsibility right along with it. Not everyone wants that. Many people are terrified of the things.

I say, a bad guy should never know for sure which of the law-abiding citizens around him might be packing.

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Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Part of the problem with guns, - 3/5/2013 10:35:28 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

ORIGINAL: SUSSEXDOMMALE

I think both sides miss the point

Guns for hunting, by the rednecks are all good. 12 bore shot guns, .22 rifles etc are for hunting.

BUT

Handguns, semi automatic rifles, machine guns etc are not for hunting. There is no logical reason that these can be sold.

the stats do not lie

Compare the UK (where even hand guns are illegal and the usa. in 2012 the UK has 312 fatal shootings. The USA has 14000+

uk population around 60 million

usa population around 310 million

On the face of it both are developed to a similar level, and have many things in common. Gun murder rate, thankfully is not one of them

Violent crime UK vs US

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_tot_cri-crime-total-crimes

UK population 60 Mil/6.5 Mil violent crimes =10.8% violent crime rate

US population 310 Mil/11.9 Mil violent crimes = 3.8% violent crime rate

Maybe YOU need to get your shit together before telling someone else how to run their country.



and the sherrif agrees with you!

Milwaukee County Sheriff David Clarke - You Have A Duty To Protect Your Family




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(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Part of the problem with guns, - 3/5/2013 11:06:36 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


quote:

ORIGINAL: TizzyTara

I say, everyone should carry a gun.



This is a ridiculous position. Carrying a firearm means carrying a load of personal responsibility right along with it. Not everyone wants that. Many people are terrified of the things.

I say, a bad guy should never know for sure which of the law-abiding citizens around him might be packing.

I agree, carring is too serious for everyone to do it, and concealed carry keeps the bad guys guessing.

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Part of the problem with guns, - 3/6/2013 1:37:55 AM   
Nosathro


Posts: 3319
Joined: 9/25/2005
From: Orange County, California
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

ORIGINAL: SUSSEXDOMMALE

I think both sides miss the point

Guns for hunting, by the rednecks are all good. 12 bore shot guns, .22 rifles etc are for hunting.

BUT

Handguns, semi automatic rifles, machine guns etc are not for hunting. There is no logical reason that these can be sold.

the stats do not lie

Compare the UK (where even hand guns are illegal and the usa. in 2012 the UK has 312 fatal shootings. The USA has 14000+

uk population around 60 million

usa population around 310 million

On the face of it both are developed to a similar level, and have many things in common. Gun murder rate, thankfully is not one of them

Violent crime UK vs US

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_tot_cri-crime-total-crimes

UK population 60 Mil/6.5 Mil violent crimes =10.8% violent crime rate

US population 310 Mil/11.9 Mil violent crimes = 3.8% violent crime rate

Maybe YOU need to get your shit together before telling someone else how to run their country.


Not what the graph shows total crimes by country US 11, 877,218, UK 6, 523,706. seems the US by the graph on your links is almost twice the total crime then the UK.

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Part of the problem with guns, - 3/6/2013 1:41:51 AM   
Nosathro


Posts: 3319
Joined: 9/25/2005
From: Orange County, California
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

ORIGINAL: SUSSEXDOMMALE

I think both sides miss the point

Guns for hunting, by the rednecks are all good. 12 bore shot guns, .22 rifles etc are for hunting.

BUT

Handguns, semi automatic rifles, machine guns etc are not for hunting. There is no logical reason that these can be sold.

the stats do not lie

Compare the UK (where even hand guns are illegal and the usa. in 2012 the UK has 312 fatal shootings. The USA has 14000+

uk population around 60 million

usa population around 310 million

On the face of it both are developed to a similar level, and have many things in common. Gun murder rate, thankfully is not one of them

Violent crime UK vs US

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_tot_cri-crime-total-crimes

UK population 60 Mil/6.5 Mil violent crimes =10.8% violent crime rate

US population 310 Mil/11.9 Mil violent crimes = 3.8% violent crime rate

Maybe YOU need to get your shit together before telling someone else how to run their country.



and the sherrif agrees with you!

Milwaukee County Sheriff David Clarke - You Have A Duty To Protect Your Family





Yep and he defended himself for saying it all on a radio show that specializes in conspricies.

http://www.jsonline.com/watchdog/noquarter/sheriff-david-a-clarke-jr-defends-remarks-he-made-on-conspiracypeddling-radio-show-q08rui4-192158541.html

http://beforeitsnews.com/opinion-liberal/2013/03/sheriff-david-clarke-divisive-mentally-unstable-should-be-recalled-and-committed-take-away-his-guns-please-2456554.html

< Message edited by Nosathro -- 3/6/2013 1:43:58 AM >

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Part of the problem with guns, - 3/6/2013 2:59:28 AM   
MariaB


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Joined: 4/3/2007
Status: offline
Ban all guns in America and the market for guns will just go underground. Banning guns is taking a defense weapon out of the hands of a good citizen and leaving them in the hands of underground criminals.

I do however, believe all semi and fully automatic weapons should be banned unless the owner has gone through strict licensing laws and has good reason to own one. Why would anyone but a criminal want to own a weapon capable of killing on mass?


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(in reply to Nosathro)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Part of the problem with guns, - 3/6/2013 5:24:39 AM   
Yachtie


Posts: 3593
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


quote:

ORIGINAL: TizzyTara

I say, everyone should carry a gun.


This is a ridiculous position. Carrying a firearm means carrying a load of personal responsibility right along with it. Not everyone wants that.


Quite so. Many wish to not be personally responsible for anything.


_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Part of the problem with guns, - 3/6/2013 5:37:33 AM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline
There are people that enjoy firing semi-automatic weapons. Just like there are people who enjoy driving a car that can go 160 MPH. Those that like firing semi-automatic weapons should go through safety classes. The government should not determine what is or is not a good reason. Just like the government should not determine whether someone has a need or good reason to own and drive a Ferrari.

Back to the OP, I agree in general about the different perspectives depending on where you live. This does not apply to just city and rural areas, but applies to where people have been raised or where their parents were raised. I will say that I have felt a greater need to carry a weapon in cities for personal protection more than rural areas. Though I do carry a .22 Pistol that fires LR rounds in my car around where I live now (rural). Mainly for vermin control or the occasional wild animal that has been hit by a car and needs to be given a quick death.


quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB

I do however, believe all semi and fully automatic weapons should be banned unless the owner has gone through strict licensing laws and has good reason to own one. Why would anyone but a criminal want to own a weapon capable of killing on mass?




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Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Part of the problem with guns, - 3/6/2013 5:49:55 AM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
Status: offline
quote:

US 36 violent crimes/thousand population based on the population of 330M
UK 109 violent crimes/thousand population based on the population of 60M


'Violent crime' is defined quite differently in each country.

Didn't we hammer all this stuff to death only a month or so ago?

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Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Part of the problem with guns, - 3/6/2013 5:54:27 AM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

US 36 violent crimes/thousand population based on the population of 330M
UK 109 violent crimes/thousand population based on the population of 60M


'Violent crime' is defined quite differently in each country.

Didn't we hammer all this stuff to death only a month or so ago?

It's fun to point out innumeracy and lies.

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

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Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Part of the problem with guns, - 3/6/2013 5:56:33 AM   
Lucylastic


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anyone using nationmaster needs their head examining

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RE: Part of the problem with guns, - 3/6/2013 5:57:22 AM   
DesideriScuri


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Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
quote:

US 36 violent crimes/thousand population based on the population of 330M
UK 109 violent crimes/thousand population based on the population of 60M

'Violent crime' is defined quite differently in each country.
Didn't we hammer all this stuff to death only a month or so ago?


"If at first you don't succeed, get a bigger hammer." First heard stated by Jesse James who claimed it was the mantra of Monster Garage.


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Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Part of the problem with guns, - 3/6/2013 6:30:05 AM   
Yachtie


Posts: 3593
Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB

Why would anyone but a criminal want to own a weapon capable of killing on mass?



I've always thought governments were criminal.


_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to MariaB)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Part of the problem with guns, - 3/6/2013 6:48:03 AM   
TricklessMagic


Posts: 248
Joined: 9/14/2009
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I own a dozen firearms capable of mass killing and I'm not a criminal. I have met hundreds of people who own firearms capable of mass killing and they were not criminals. Let's turn this around.

"Why would anyone but a chicken-shit, good-for-nothing, craven self-victimizing, coward want only criminals and government stooges to have firearms capable of mass killing?"

I've got a theory that gun grabbers are either fools, fascists, traitors, targets, cowards, suicidal, expendable, craven self-victimizers, and masochists. Sorry for repeating myself.

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Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Part of the problem with guns, - 3/6/2013 7:23:21 AM   
Nosathro


Posts: 3319
Joined: 9/25/2005
From: Orange County, California
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB

Ban all guns in America and the market for guns will just go underground. Banning guns is taking a defense weapon out of the hands of a good citizen and leaving them in the hands of underground criminals.

I do however, believe all semi and fully automatic weapons should be banned unless the owner has gone through strict licensing laws and has good reason to own one. Why would anyone but a criminal want to own a weapon capable of killing on mass?



Studies show that most criminals get their guns legally. The only criminals will have guns is a myth much like many doomsday theories.

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Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Part of the problem with guns, - 3/6/2013 7:26:07 AM   
Nosathro


Posts: 3319
Joined: 9/25/2005
From: Orange County, California
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TricklessMagic

I own a dozen firearms capable of mass killing and I'm not a criminal. I have met hundreds of people who own firearms capable of mass killing and they were not criminals. Let's turn this around.

"Why would anyone but a chicken-shit, good-for-nothing, craven self-victimizing, coward want only criminals and government stooges to have firearms capable of mass killing?"

I've got a theory that gun grabbers are either fools, fascists, traitors, targets, cowards, suicidal, expendable, craven self-victimizers, and masochists. Sorry for repeating myself.


Let see James Patrick Wonder, Raul Rodrigues, Jake England, I could go on, all law bidding gun owners, then they killed people. And I don't fit any of your catagories....

(in reply to TricklessMagic)
Profile   Post #: 40
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