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RE: THe art of submission - 3/8/2013 9:53:56 AM   
LillyBoPeep


Posts: 6873
Joined: 12/29/2010
Status: offline 		No worries :) And just remember that you aren't solely responsible for the resolution of situations like this. Ignoring you or refusing to answer questions on his part is very unproductive.

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"Obey your Master." Metallica


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RE: THe art of submission - 3/8/2013 9:54:48 AM   
OsideGirl


Posts: 14441
Joined: 7/1/2005
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Dyfrynt
Am I the only one who has a problem with his not being willing to answer the question?


If it's the same guy she was seeing before, it's not surprising. It would just be par for the course with him.


_____________________________

Give a girl the right shoes and she will conquer the world. ~ Marilyn Monroe

The Accelerated Velocity of Terminological Inexactitude

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Profile   Post #: 82
RE: THe art of submission - 3/8/2013 10:07:36 AM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Dyfrynt
Am I the only one who has a problem with his not being willing to answer the question?

No. I have a huge issue with it. If he were here and we were talking to him he'd have to talk pretty fast to convince me he wasn't submissive.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

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RE: THe art of submission - 3/8/2013 10:09:01 AM   
chatterbox24


Posts: 2182
Joined: 1/22/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Dyfrynt

A comment was made to me " I want you more submissive then you have ever been" ......... IT could have been a very benign comment but I took it as " you are not submissive enough" I also asked "what is missing" and without a response.

Am I the only one who has a problem with his not being willing to answer the question? All these hints and ideas about how to be more submissive are great, and also problematic. Defining "more submissive" is different for everyone. If he is not willing to tell you what is missing how can you fill the void? Perhaps he means to have you stumbling around in the dark, and that is a training technique I have seen used. Its effectiveness is spotty.

If I were to make a suggestion it would be to get permission, if necessary, to have a discussion about the specifics of what he is looking for.

Because THE art of submission is how to most effectively please the individual you are with.


I definitely agree with this. IT has caused issues. Now if from the beginning I had been a pleasing person, and still was having serious communication lack, I dont think I could ever feel satisfied with it. But I was very hard to talk too, and Im on a better road, so I will give time to possiblity of more open communication. Hearing honesty was not my strong suit. Nor was practicing it.

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RE: THe art of submission - 3/8/2013 10:15:22 AM   
chatterbox24


Posts: 2182
Joined: 1/22/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dyfrynt
Am I the only one who has a problem with his not being willing to answer the question?

No. I have a huge issue with it. If he were here and we were talking to him he'd have to talk pretty fast to convince me he wasn't submissive.


HI Jeff,

Do you mind elaborating?
He is dismissive not submissive. and most likely if he was here he would not debate or participate. BUt thats interesting, why would you say submissive?

_____________________________

I am like a box of chocolates, you never know what variety you are going to get on any given day.

My crazy smells like jasmine, cloves and cat nip.

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Profile   Post #: 85
RE: THe art of submission - 3/8/2013 10:16:13 AM   
ChatteParfaitt


Posts: 6562
Joined: 3/22/2011
From: The t'aint of the Midwest -- Indiana
Status: offline 		I have to agree with your statements. I certainly have an issue with him not being able to communicate with her. But some of us have past history with chatter, and I had an idea who she was talking about.

From my own POV, this man is more abusive than dominant. He does appear to be very good at keeping her on the string despite this -- and that's her fault. She's learned and grown a lot since she first began posting here. Hopefully more and more will sink in, and she's get what she needs to see this man for what he really is.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dyfrynt

A comment was made to me " I want you more submissive then you have ever been" ......... IT could have been a very benign comment but I took it as " you are not submissive enough" I also asked "what is missing" and without a response.

Am I the only one who has a problem with his not being willing to answer the question? All these hints and ideas about how to be more submissive are great, and also problematic. Defining "more submissive" is different for everyone. If he is not willing to tell you what is missing how can you fill the void? Perhaps he means to have you stumbling around in the dark, and that is a training technique I have seen used. Its effectiveness is spotty.

If I were to make a suggestion it would be to get permission, if necessary, to have a discussion about the specifics of what he is looking for.

Because THE art of submission is how to most effectively please the individual you are with.



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RE: THe art of submission - 3/8/2013 10:25:32 AM   
ChatteParfaitt


Posts: 6562
Joined: 3/22/2011
From: The t'aint of the Midwest -- Indiana
Status: offline
quote:

Do you mind elaborating?
He is dismissive not submissive. and most likely if he was here he would not debate or participate. BUt thats interesting, why would you say submissive?

_____________________________


Based on your own reports about your relationship with this man, he is ruled by his insecurities. This tells me (and Jeff obviously) that he's not a dominant or leadership type. He's a follower who is so completely incapable of admitting that to himself that he attempts to rule by miscommunication, deflection, and deceit.

I've seen this often enough to say it's fairly common

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RE: THe art of submission - 3/8/2013 10:29:07 AM   
OsideGirl


Posts: 14441
Joined: 7/1/2005
From: United States
Status: offline 		Chatter, I know you and I have had our go 'rounds, but I'll give you my honest opinion here.

If this is the same guy, you truly can't be surprised that he's not communicating because people to don't change unless they want to change. If you keep going back to him, he has no reason to want to change.

When you first came here, it was pretty much the same issue. He gave obtuse comments, put the blame on you and then refused to elaborate.

A good Dominant will give his submissive the tools to succeed. That means that when he throws things out there regarding the dynamic, he is concise and clear about what he wants and will supply answers to questions that can actually get him what he wants.

Being cryptic (especially after you've already had these conversations with him) is a deliberate manipulation. The worse he makes you feel, the more you're going to feel guilty and the more you're going to beg for his attention because you feel that you have failed.



_____________________________

Give a girl the right shoes and she will conquer the world. ~ Marilyn Monroe

The Accelerated Velocity of Terminological Inexactitude

(in reply to ChatteParfaitt)
Profile   Post #: 88
RE: THe art of submission - 3/8/2013 10:35:54 AM   
chatterbox24


Posts: 2182
Joined: 1/22/2012
Status: offline 		Everyone is entitled to their own personal beliefs and it is also true history can be a good predictor of the future. But its not always the case, if individuals change, so can the outcome.

Making assumptions can lead to false conclusions. The advice is good still, and with growth either things flourish or die. Only the future holds that answer. But for now, I like the challenges to myself and the strengthening of character.

one thing I do know is, regardless, what doesnt kill you makes you stronger.

and trust me I have planted the seed of caution in me so the words dont go on deaf ears.

< Message edited by chatterbox24 -- 3/8/2013 10:38:59 AM >

_____________________________

I am like a box of chocolates, you never know what variety you are going to get on any given day.

My crazy smells like jasmine, cloves and cat nip.

(in reply to ChatteParfaitt)
Profile   Post #: 89
RE: THe art of submission - 3/8/2013 10:59:50 AM   
sexyred1


Posts: 8998
Joined: 8/9/2007
Status: offline 		History with someone is an excellent predictor of the future; believe me, I know first hand.

From the sounds of this, this guy is a failure at communication, developing trust and honesty.

You don't need to explain yourself as to why you wish to have communication and honesty and if you agree to a poly anything, I have heard that it requires an open and honest dialogue between all concerned.

Whenever someone does not answer a question honestly put to them in a relationship, that to me is HUGE red flag. If he is so afraid of your response to to his replies, then that tells you something about him.

(in reply to chatterbox24)
Profile   Post #: 90
RE: THe art of submission - 3/8/2013 11:12:27 AM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: chatterbox24
He is dismissive not submissive. and most likely if he was here he would not debate or participate. BUt thats interesting, why would you say submissive?

Everyone means different things by the word "submissive" and "dominant" but CP pretty much nailed my thoughts. Let me state it another way. A dominant personality sees themselves as coming from a position of strength. Accordingly, there is no reason to be passive/aggressive. They tend to be aggressive/aggressive when pushed. When someone is passive/aggressive (which is how I interpret this behavior of his) that means they are coming from a position of weakness which is not a dominant mindset.

In my world, passive/aggressive is the realm of poorly behaved submissives. Poorly behaved doms lash out instead.

In addition, I simply cannot imagine me telling Carol to "figure it out on her own" except in very limited and specific circumstances where I really thought that:

A) She'd be able to do that
B) There was value in her working it out on her own.

More often than not it turns out that (a) wasn't true anyway so it fails and I have to spell it out. In other words, it's generally a losing strategy.

Insofar as the "dismissive" thing, that's on you. I cannot imagine why you'd give even one ounce of respect or authority to someone who dismisses you. That's just plain suicidally dangerous but it isn't my call. It's also not how one builds real loyalty and respect. In my mind, if that's true then it poisons the entire D/s exchange on both sides.


_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to chatterbox24)
Profile   Post #: 91
RE: THe art of submission - 3/8/2013 11:24:40 AM   
LillyBoPeep


Posts: 6873
Joined: 12/29/2010
Status: offline 		I really have to agree with Jeff - I don't know anything about the past history, and while I still think it's a good idea for her to make progress with her personality, there are some very big problems that aren't going to go away, without this guy fixing the way he deals with things, and communicates. if this is a past guy, who has done the same things and shown no willingness to fix them, then... eh.



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"Obey your Master." Metallica


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Profile   Post #: 92
RE: THe art of submission - 3/8/2013 11:47:49 AM   
ChatteParfaitt


Posts: 6562
Joined: 3/22/2011
From: The t'aint of the Midwest -- Indiana
Status: offline 		Based on my own observations of this relationship, he's sexually dominant and she's at least partially sexually sub, so he knows how to float her boat, and understands how to manipulate her. The thing is, she's married, he's what I would call a secondary relationship, which doesn't mean she shouldn't be emotionally invested, but it does mean she should be taking great care with how much she has invested.

I understand how marvelous it is the first time you find a man who knows how to press all your buttons, but this one seems far too emotionally unavailable for me to want anything to do with him. B/c I just don't know how to be sub to someone w/o becoming very emotionally invested.

(I know that's me, others' mileage may vary, yada yada. )

I think chatter should really take some time to think long and hard about why she has so much invested in someone who is clearly so emotionally unavailable to her.


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RE: THe art of submission - 3/8/2013 11:58:47 AM   
OsideGirl


Posts: 14441
Joined: 7/1/2005
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sexyred1

History with someone is an excellent predictor of the future; believe me, I know first hand.

Especially, when they're currently engaging the same behavior from the past.

_____________________________

Give a girl the right shoes and she will conquer the world. ~ Marilyn Monroe

The Accelerated Velocity of Terminological Inexactitude

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Profile   Post #: 94
RE: THe art of submission - 3/8/2013 6:40:37 PM   
DomMeinCT


Posts: 2355
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: chatterbox24

Everyone is entitled to their own personal beliefs and it is also true history can be a good predictor of the future. But its not always the case, if individuals change, so can the outcome.

Making assumptions can lead to false conclusions. The advice is good still, and with growth either things flourish or die. Only the future holds that answer. But for now, I like the challenges to myself and the strengthening of character.
one thing I do know is, regardless, what doesnt kill you makes you stronger.

and trust me I have planted the seed of caution in me so the words dont go on deaf ears.


What challenges to yourself? Getting better at not getting caught cheating by your husband? Not admitting to him this time around that you're still cheating with the same guy?

What strengthening of character? Yours?

You're still cheating on your husband, still neglecting your kids, still endangering your family's stability with this behavior.
It's unbelievable how much kind advice you've been given, and it most likely wouldn't have been the same some of from those folks had they known you were doing it under the guise of lying and sneaking behind a spouse's back.


< Message edited by DomMeinCT -- 3/8/2013 6:41:17 PM >

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The meeting of two personalities is like the contact of two chemical substances:
if there is any reaction, both are transformed.
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RE: THe art of submission - 3/8/2013 7:29:13 PM   
ARIES83


Posts: 3648
Status: offline

< Message edited by ARIES83 -- 3/8/2013 7:30:04 PM >

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530 DAYS

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RE: THe art of submission - 3/8/2013 9:42:29 PM   
littlewonder


Posts: 15659
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt


quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

I would guess that what he meant was don't argue. Don't talk back. Don't do it with a grimace. Do it with a smile on your face and mean it. Actually mean it. Don't tell him you don't like something....just do it with a "Yes Sir" and nothing else. Don't dawdle. Do things for him that he likes and without him having to ask. Do things you know that would make his life easier. When he wants something don't say "wait a minute". Jump up and do it and if you can't, explain why you couldn't (dinner was burning) and hope for the best. Apologize when you know you are wrong.



I see all these things as having to do with the art of submission, which I suppose you could call 'pleasing 101.'

We've talked on other threads (not just you and I, but the forum as a whole) about submission being about obedience, and it is, but it is ALSO about being pleasing. If Himself asks for a diet coke and I grumble as I get up to go fetch it, sure, I'm being obedient, but I'm not being pleasing. Being pleasing is saying: Do you need more ice? Can I get you anything else? And having a big smile and an obvious willingness to be found pleasing as I say it.

It's what *I* look for in a sub, not just being willing to obey, but being willing to please.




I don't see it as some kind of art of submission. It's caring about your partner. I don't see it being about bdsm either. Remember, I grew up in a traditional world. What i just described is just typical stuff a wife does for her husband to make him happy which in the end makes her happy and in the end they're both happy together in their marriage.

And why I suggested she try this with her husband if she wants her marriage to survive. She just may find that things will change for the better and she won't need to look outside her marriage for a little piece on the side to make her life a little more exciting. It's sad when I see marriages destroyed because both have forgotten the person they fell in love with and how to be partners together.



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Nothing has changed
Everything has changed

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RE: THe art of submission - 3/8/2013 9:46:44 PM   
littlewonder


Posts: 15659
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: chatterbox24
His response. I dont feel you need to know that. and maybe I dont need to know that. My comment was With disclosure comes trust. Then I left it alone.
I have no desire to participate with these other's, so maybe I dont need to know. But that is one example of a nondisclosure.


Nope. You don't have a right to know. You're married. He's got his extras. You obviously have yours.

As far as I'm concerned, he doesn't have to answer anything and neither do you. It's not like you both are married to one another and it's not like either of you are probably being honest with your other partners. So this basically makes this all a fuckbuddy scenario. When I was single and doing the fuckbuddy thing, it was wham, bam, thank you ma'am. I'll see you next week, same time, same place. No questions asked, no talking about our lives apart, no nothing except a little fucking and playing. Then we both went home to our real lives. For all I knew, he could have been married, he could have been in a relationship. I didn't know and I didn't care. It was what it was. And from what I can make out, that's basically what you have here. So, imo.....more submissive....he means, pretend to be a slave for a little while. Call him Master for a little bit. Give him a blowjob, do a little "Oh please Master....don't make me wear this pretty little dress that shows my tits and makes me wet". <as you give a coy smile>

He wants you to just get more into your roleplaying. Watch a few pornos and I'm sure you'll figure it out.




< Message edited by littlewonder -- 3/8/2013 9:54:39 PM >

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RE: THe art of submission - 3/9/2013 12:43:09 AM   
in2anything


Posts: 2
Joined: 1/23/2013
Status: offline 		What a great way to take it down to the basics. This makes the most sense to me. Be honest, direct, open...and don't be afraid to ask, it only shows you want to please.

(in reply to ARIES83)
Profile   Post #: 99
RE: THe art of submission - 3/9/2013 6:24:35 AM   
kallisto


Posts: 1185
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

quote:

ORIGINAL: chatterbox24
His response. I dont feel you need to know that. and maybe I dont need to know that. My comment was With disclosure comes trust. Then I left it alone.
I have no desire to participate with these other's, so maybe I dont need to know. But that is one example of a nondisclosure.



Nope. You don't have a right to know. You're married. He's got his extras. You obviously have yours.

And from what I can make out, that's basically what you have here. So, imo.....more submissive....he means, pretend to be a slave for a little while. Call him Master for a little bit. Give him a blowjob, do a little "Oh please Master....don't make me wear this pretty little dress that shows my tits and makes me wet". <as you give a coy smile>

He wants you to just get more into your roleplaying. Watch a few pornos and I'm sure you'll figure it out.



littlewonder took the words right out of my mouth ... my thoughts exactly.

(in reply to littlewonder)
Profile   Post #: 100
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