RE: gun control and tragedies

RE: gun control and tragedies (Full Version)

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Hillwilliam -> RE: gun control and tragedies (3/15/2013 5:24:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Nosathro There seems to be some arguement on the cause and effort of laws on guns, Australia passes a gun control law restricting the ownership of firearms, the rate of violent crime goes up. Well let Us look at the State of Louisiana, one of the most liberal gun law states, very little on restrictions, it is also has one of highest rate of homicide. Now that is cause and effect. http://www.nbcnews.com/business/most-least-safe-states-america-756544 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_States_by_state Louisiana, murder rate 9.6/ 100,000 The District of Columbia has some of the strictest gun control laws in the country and the murder rate = 21.8/100,000 Are you still going to claim cause and effect?

Focus50 -> RE: gun control and tragedies (3/15/2013 5:31:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: Focus50 Your latest effort of summarising shit that never happened is beyond mere gold. Oh dear, this is sad. Bingo - but in that "makes my eyes water" comical kinda way. quote: You have from the start favorably contrasted Australia's approach to guns to the one we have in America. But aside from Australia's onerous restrictions on what kinds of guns its citizens are allowed to possess, the major difference is that Australia does not accept self-defense as a legitimate reason for issuing a license to purchase or carry a firearm. Accordingly, arguing in favor of Australia's approach to guns is inherently an argument against defensive carry. Whoa, hang on a sec...! This looks suspiciously like an attempt to discuss - and by reason and rationale. Hmmm.... You're Kirata? There is the usual unjustified smug, though not so much in this particular paragraph.... Smellin' an ambush, but.... Ya know what; kudos (yes, the sincere variety rather than the usual deserved raspberry) What you've done is make a reasonable assessment (dunno about "onerous" restrictions but that can slide) but your conclusion is flawed. Kirata: "Accordingly, arguing in favor of Australia's approach to guns is inherently an argument against defensive carry." Not for the first time, you're only addressing half an equation. A need for "defensive carry". Your 2nd amendment enables both sides (offender/defender) to carry, hence you feel the need to arm yourselves to feel safe. And so the gun culture only escalates there. Not so, here. Here you need a valid reason to obtain a shooter's licence. And you're right, personal or home defense ain't it. Very few would-be offenders risk being caught with a firearm because of the greater consequences or simply because firearms are harder to obtain, esp handguns. They're mostly the preference of the hardcore criminal variety. And if the offenders (generally) aren't carrying...? There, I've taken you seriously on a point. On form, this is where you piss it away in a torrent of smug. In which case, normal programming has been great entertainment at my end.... [;)] Focus.

Yachtie -> RE: gun control and tragedies (3/15/2013 5:38:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle This is a blatant attempt to insinuate and/or contrive a connection between 'gun bans' (sic) and rape and assault. Is there any connection between gun possession and repelling criminal activity? The answer is found in whether guns have and/or are being used for such purpose. If the the answer to that is affirmative, removing such could result in increasing criminal activity. Stop hiding behind irrelevant statistics That's hysterical, as it's the statistics in this case which allow one to postulate the correlation between gun possession and crime. That's how one attempts at measuring the broad scope of it. and come out and state what you really believe or else agree that the stats you quoted are irrelevant to this topic. More hysterics. What K. believes is irrelevant to the statistics themselves which you are attempting to dance past. God how I love how liberals argue.

Nosathro -> RE: gun control and tragedies (3/15/2013 6:26:54 AM)
Well something interesting Kennesaw Georgia the town that requires everyone to carry a gun by law, the law was passed in 1982 reports Aggravated Assault is up, 2010 it was 13, 2011 is was 12, then in 2012 it jumped to 20. http://www.kennesaw-ga.gov/crime-statistics

Nosathro -> RE: gun control and tragedies (3/15/2013 6:30:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam quote: ORIGINAL: Nosathro There seems to be some arguement on the cause and effort of laws on guns, Australia passes a gun control law restricting the ownership of firearms, the rate of violent crime goes up. Well let Us look at the State of Louisiana, one of the most liberal gun law states, very little on restrictions, it is also has one of highest rate of homicide. Now that is cause and effect. http://www.nbcnews.com/business/most-least-safe-states-america-756544 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_States_by_state Louisiana, murder rate 9.6/ 100,000 The District of Columbia has some of the strictest gun control laws in the country and the murder rate = 21.8/100,000 Are you still going to claim cause and effect? Yep by your link District of Columbia in 2010 had 131 murders 99 were murder by gun. Louisina had 437 murders 351 of those murders were by gun. By the way some of those strict laws of Washington DC were overturned in court in 2008.

Rule -> RE: gun control and tragedies (3/15/2013 6:45:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Nosathro There seems to be some arguement on the cause and effort of laws on guns, Australia passes a gun control law restricting the ownership of firearms, the rate of violent crime goes up. Well let Us look at the State of Louisiana, one of the most liberal gun law states, very little on restrictions, it is also has one of highest rate of homicide. Now that is cause and effect. http://www.nbcnews.com/business/most-least-safe-states-america-756544 I rather suspect that it has more to do with the kind of people that live there than with the liberal gun laws.

deathtothepixies -> RE: gun control and tragedies (3/15/2013 6:50:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam quote: ORIGINAL: Nosathro There seems to be some arguement on the cause and effort of laws on guns, Australia passes a gun control law restricting the ownership of firearms, the rate of violent crime goes up. Well let Us look at the State of Louisiana, one of the most liberal gun law states, very little on restrictions, it is also has one of highest rate of homicide. Now that is cause and effect. http://www.nbcnews.com/business/most-least-safe-states-america-756544 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_States_by_state Louisiana, murder rate 9.6/ 100,000 The District of Columbia has some of the strictest gun control laws in the country and the murder rate = 21.8/100,000 Are you still going to claim cause and effect? District of Columbia 10,065 inhabitants per square mile Louisiana 105.0 inhabitants per square mile Dont suppose that would make any difference would it? The old apples and oranges comparisomes at work again

Hillwilliam -> RE: gun control and tragedies (3/15/2013 6:57:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: deathtothepixies quote: ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam quote: ORIGINAL: Nosathro There seems to be some arguement on the cause and effort of laws on guns, Australia passes a gun control law restricting the ownership of firearms, the rate of violent crime goes up. Well let Us look at the State of Louisiana, one of the most liberal gun law states, very little on restrictions, it is also has one of highest rate of homicide. Now that is cause and effect. http://www.nbcnews.com/business/most-least-safe-states-america-756544 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_States_by_state Louisiana, murder rate 9.6/ 100,000 The District of Columbia has some of the strictest gun control laws in the country and the murder rate = 21.8/100,000 Are you still going to claim cause and effect? District of Columbia 10,065 inhabitants per square mile Louisiana 105.0 inhabitants per square mile Dont suppose that would make any difference would it? The old apples and oranges comparisomes at work again That's what I was pointing out. His assertion of weak laws as THE cause of more murders was incorrect. There are other factors in play.

Nosathro -> RE: gun control and tragedies (3/15/2013 7:21:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam quote: ORIGINAL: deathtothepixies quote: ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam quote: ORIGINAL: Nosathro There seems to be some arguement on the cause and effort of laws on guns, Australia passes a gun control law restricting the ownership of firearms, the rate of violent crime goes up. Well let Us look at the State of Louisiana, one of the most liberal gun law states, very little on restrictions, it is also has one of highest rate of homicide. Now that is cause and effect. http://www.nbcnews.com/business/most-least-safe-states-america-756544 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_States_by_state Louisiana, murder rate 9.6/ 100,000 The District of Columbia has some of the strictest gun control laws in the country and the murder rate = 21.8/100,000 Are you still going to claim cause and effect? District of Columbia 10,065 inhabitants per square mile Louisiana 105.0 inhabitants per square mile Dont suppose that would make any difference would it? The old apples and oranges comparisomes at work again That's what I was pointing out. His assertion of weak laws as THE cause of more murders was incorrect. There are other factors in play. So in states with restrictive gun laws their death are proof the laws don't work, but in states where there are liberal or no gun laws you don't care. Well you must be really happy with Texas, 1,245 murders of those 805 killed by guns. That would be 3.2 per 100,000

PeonForHer -> RE: gun control and tragedies (3/15/2013 7:30:33 AM)
quote: And of course not it said the government could enfringe your right to buy one it said nothing about the government buying it for you. It is a right not an entitlement. From what I can make out, the 2nd Amendment does not, in fact, talk about 'right to buy' at all. The entire text is: "A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed." So, if the government, through its agents (police or army), acts to stop someone stealing guns from a gun-shop, it is infringing the gun-thief's right to keep and bear arms. As far as I can see, there are only two options for a government here: either stay out of of any battle between gun-shop-proprietor and gun-thief, or provide guns free of charge to all who ask for them.

Hillwilliam -> RE: gun control and tragedies (3/15/2013 8:19:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Nosathro So in states with restrictive gun laws their death are proof the laws don't work, but in states where there are liberal or no gun laws you don't care. Well you must be really happy with Texas, 1,245 murders of those 805 killed by guns. That would be 3.2 per 100,000 I didn't say that. Your reading comprehension is lacking. I said that what you pointed out was correlation, not "cause and effect" as you claimed. You used Texas just now Texas with 3.2murders/100,000 population has only 15% of the murders PER CAPITA as DC with its stricter laws. You just showed data that totally disproves your assertion of 'cause and effect'.

trishahood -> RE: gun control and tragedies (3/15/2013 8:50:20 AM)
Well for me, gun control is a non issue if people are looking for ways to improve public safety. My personal feeling is that guns should be off limits until you get a handle on automobile related deaths. With over 60,000 automobile related deaths each year.. over 20,000 of those CRIMINAL.. it seems that going after 12K Homicides a year by gun.. a percentage of that 12K JUSTIFIABLE homicide.. you are barking up the wrong tree. Insert screaming goat here. It's just a bunch of noise to make people fearful so they will give up the guns. The government is spending us into oblivion and sees a Greece style crash coming. The last thing any of them want when it finally does come down.. is an armed public. So we are now talking about gun control and the use of armed drones on US soil. So no.. guns.. are a non issue. Let your representatives know that... or vote them out.

Musicmystery -> RE: gun control and tragedies (3/15/2013 9:01:56 AM)
Yet liberal NY had the lowest gun murder rate in 2012 -- due to getting guns off the streets. Deciding whether that's a good idea or not is one thing; pretending that looser laws inherently create lower murder rates is just not true. quote: Bloomberg compared New York’s murder rate — the lowest rate per 100,000 residents amongst the 25 most populated cities — to other famous cities in the country. If the city had the murder rate of Chicago, cops would be investigating more than 1,400 homicides this year, Bloomberg said. If the city had Detroit’s murder rate, cops would be called to more than 4,400 killings this year, he added. Police Commissioner Raymond Kelly said that the drop in murders and shootings stem from a wide range of strategies that include deploying more officers in crime-ridden areas and the controversial stop-and-frisk tactic. “We’re taking 8,000 weapons annually out of the hands of people we stop, 800 of them illegal guns,” Kelly said. Guns are the leading cause of murders in the city this year, killing 237 people. Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/murders-fall-record-city-article-1.1229273#ixzz2NcnEHmDJ

tazzygirl -> RE: gun control and tragedies (3/15/2013 9:03:40 AM)
Auto deaths are down. Since NHTSA began recording alcohol-related statistics in 1982, drunk driving fatalities have decreased 52% from 21,113 in 1982. Since the inception of The Century Council and our national efforts to fight drunk driving, drunk driving fatalities have declined 35% from 15,827 in 1991. (Source: NHTSA/FARS, 2011) http://www.centurycouncil.org/drunk-driving/drunk-driving-fatalities-national-statistics quote: With over 60,000 automobile related deaths each year.. over 20,000 of those CRIMINAL.. Got a source for that? I cannot find a single source stating there has ever been 60,000 auto related deaths. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_motor_vehicle_deaths_in_U.S._by_year Nor is there one stating 20000 were criminal. A link would be nice. [:D]

FunCouple5280 -> RE: gun control and tragedies (3/15/2013 9:14:30 AM)
At times, the US has made firearms available to its citizenry. FYI The CMP used to help sell cheap surplus rifles to the public. I just checked, still some affordable ones. Not nearly as cheap as they used to be. The CMP is the goverment sponsored Civilian Marksmenship program. Was a big deal after WWII not so much any more.

lovmuffin -> RE: gun control and tragedies (3/15/2013 9:49:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: trishahood Well for me, gun control is a non issue if people are looking for ways to improve public safety. My personal feeling is that guns should be off limits until you get a handle on automobile related deaths. With over 60,000 automobile related deaths each year.. over 20,000 of those CRIMINAL.. it seems that going after 12K Homicides a year by gun.. a percentage of that 12K JUSTIFIABLE homicide.. you are barking up the wrong tree. Insert screaming goat here. It's just a bunch of noise to make people fearful so they will give up the guns. The government is spending us into oblivion and sees a Greece style crash coming. The last thing any of them want when it finally does come down.. is an armed public. So we are now talking about gun control and the use of armed drones on US soil. So no.. guns.. are a non issue. Let your representatives know that... or vote them out. I think the second paragraph could have stood by itself. It pretty much sums it up exactly.

tazzygirl -> RE: gun control and tragedies (3/15/2013 9:54:28 AM)
Yeah, since the first one isnt backed by facts.

DomYngBlk -> RE: gun control and tragedies (3/15/2013 9:56:30 AM)
And the second is some stupidity tossed out by the right wing nutball media machine

FunCouple5280 -> RE: gun control and tragedies (3/15/2013 9:57:56 AM)
After the first paragraph, has a point though...Of all the shit that is going to bite us in the ass, why concern ourselves with item #73 on that list? People get distracted by guns......

BamaD -> RE: gun control and tragedies (3/15/2013 10:09:16 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Nosathro quote: ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam quote: ORIGINAL: Nosathro There seems to be some arguement on the cause and effort of laws on guns, Australia passes a gun control law restricting the ownership of firearms, the rate of violent crime goes up. Well let Us look at the State of Louisiana, one of the most liberal gun law states, very little on restrictions, it is also has one of highest rate of homicide. Now that is cause and effect. http://www.nbcnews.com/business/most-least-safe-states-america-756544 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_States_by_state Louisiana, murder rate 9.6/ 100,000 The District of Columbia has some of the strictest gun control laws in the country and the murder rate = 21.8/100,000 Are you still going to claim cause and effect? Yep by your link District of Columbia in 2010 had 131 murders 99 were murder by gun. Louisina had 437 murders 351 of those murders were by gun. By the way some of those strict laws of Washington DC were overturned in court in 2008. And of course since the majority of muders in D C weren't committed with guns they aren't a problem. This high murder rate in D C got there under the ban so don't try to pretend that it being overturned is the cause.

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