RE: gun control and tragedies (Full Version)

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tazzygirl -> RE: gun control and tragedies (3/14/2013 6:25:57 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

you my dear chaps are to humour what ex lax is to dysentry


[sm=rofl.gif]



Kirata -> RE: gun control and tragedies (3/14/2013 6:33:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50

Your latest effort of summarising shit that never happened is beyond mere gold.

Oh dear, this is sad. But apparently it's necessary. Okay, school time.

You have from the start favorably contrasted Australia's approach to guns to the one we have in America. But aside from Australia's onerous restrictions on what kinds of guns its citizens are allowed to possess, the major difference is that Australia does not accept self-defense as a legitimate reason for issuing a license to purchase or carry a firearm. Accordingly, arguing in favor of Australia's approach to guns is inherently an argument against defensive carry.

See how that works now? Very good. You're welcome. Don't stand up.

K.



Owner59 -> RE: gun control and tragedies (3/14/2013 6:45:46 PM)

How many mass killings have there been in Australia, since the gun ban there?



Not that reality matters to the discussion.....







Kirata -> RE: gun control and tragedies (3/14/2013 6:55:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

How many mass killings have there been in Australia, since the gun ban there?

Not that reality matters to the discussion.....

How much has assault and rape increased in Australia since the gun ban?

Not that thousands of defenseless victims matter to the discussion.

K.




tweakabelle -> RE: gun control and tragedies (3/14/2013 7:21:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50

Your latest effort of summarising shit that never happened is beyond mere gold.

Oh dear, this is sad. But apparently it's necessary. Okay, school time.

You have from the start favorably contrasted Australia's approach to guns to the one we have in America. But aside from Australia's onerous restrictions on what kinds of guns its citizens are allowed to possess, the major difference is that Australia does not accept self-defense as a legitimate reason for issuing a license to purchase or carry a firearm. Accordingly, arguing in favor of Australia's approach to guns is inherently an argument against defensive carry.

See how that works now? Very good. You're welcome. Don't stand up.

K.

Oh dear, this is sad. But apparently it's necessary. Okay, school time.

The major difference between US and Australian approaches to gun ownership is that, in the US, the Second Amendment is a "right" to possess arms, while Australians are required to possess a valid license to possess guns. I would have thought this to be so glaringly obvious that it's almost self-evident but it seems not.

Whether guns are licensed or held as a "right" does not imply anything in relation to how those guns might be legally carried. So I cannot find any basis for your claim that "arguing in favor of Australia's approach to guns is inherently an argument against defensive carry."

See how that works now? Very good. You're welcome.

quote:

How has assault and rape increased in Australia since the gun ban?


Good question. Would you like to supply us with an answer?

To the best of my knowledge, no one here has claimed that there has been a significant change in these stats since tighter restrictions on gun ownership were introduced. I have never heard anyone here claim that increases in the incidence of assault and rape (if any) are because of, or even related to the changes in gun laws. There's a good reason for that - anyone who made such a claim would be inviting universal derision and ridicule.

Finally the law changes did not introduce a blanket gun "ban" - they imposed restrictions of the kinds of weapons that Australians could legally possess. There is a world of difference between an unqualified "gun ban" and restrictions on gun ownership. Any Australian of good character can get a gun license, provided they have a valid reason for doing do.



BamaD -> RE: gun control and tragedies (3/14/2013 8:05:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50

Your latest effort of summarising shit that never happened is beyond mere gold.

Oh dear, this is sad. But apparently it's necessary. Okay, school time.

You have from the start favorably contrasted Australia's approach to guns to the one we have in America. But aside from Australia's onerous restrictions on what kinds of guns its citizens are allowed to possess, the major difference is that Australia does not accept self-defense as a legitimate reason for issuing a license to purchase or carry a firearm. Accordingly, arguing in favor of Australia's approach to guns is inherently an argument against defensive carry.

See how that works now? Very good. You're welcome. Don't stand up.

K.

Oh dear, this is sad. But apparently it's necessary. Okay, school time.

The major difference between US and Australian approaches to gun ownership is that, in the US, the Second Amendment is a "right" to possess arms, while Australians are required to possess a valid license to possess guns. I would have thought this to be so glaringly obvious that it's almost self-evident but it seems not.

Whether guns are licensed or held as a "right" does not imply anything in relation to how those guns might be legally carried. So I cannot find any basis for your claim that "arguing in favor of Australia's approach to guns is inherently an argument against defensive carry."

See how that works now? Very good. You're welcome.

quote:

How has assault and rape increased in Australia since the gun ban?


Good question. Would you like to supply us with an answer?

To the best of my knowledge, no one here has claimed that there has been a significant change in these stats since tighter restrictions on gun ownership were introduced. I have never heard anyone here claim that increases in the incidence of assault and rape (if any) are because of, or even related to the changes in gun laws. There's a good reason for that - anyone who made such a claim would be inviting universal derision and ridicule.

Finally the law changes did not introduce a blanket gun "ban" - they imposed restrictions of the kinds of weapons that Australians could legally possess. There is a world of difference between an unqualified "gun ban" and restrictions on gun ownership. Any Australian of good character can get a gun license, provided they have a valid reason for doing do.

What is a "valid" reason?



tweakabelle -> RE: gun control and tragedies (3/14/2013 8:55:26 PM)

"Applicants for a gun owner’s licence in Australia are required to prove genuine reason to possess a firearm, for example, hunting, target shooting, collection, pest control, and narrow occupational uses. In law, personal protection is not a genuine reason"
http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/australia

The GunPolicy.org site, is hosted by the Sydney School of Public Health, part of the University of Sydney. Its contents are far more reliable than some of the fanciful, often wholly fictitious claims I have seen made here (and elsewhere) about Australian gun laws and policies by 'pro-gun' posters and others. There appears to be an awful lot of misinformation and often plain lies about Australian gun control laws and policies circulating in the US. The NRA seems to be the source of most of this misinformation/lies (eg. Someone here made the claim that 'rapes and home invasions have tripled in Aust. since the gun ban (sic)' on the basis of NRA info or should I say NRA propaganda)



Kirata -> RE: gun control and tragedies (3/14/2013 8:58:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

The major difference between US and Australian approaches to gun ownership is that, in the US, the Second Amendment is a "right" to possess arms, while Australians are required to possess a valid license to possess guns. I would have thought this to be so glaringly obvious that it's almost self-evident but it seems not.

And I would have thought it glaringly obvious that while the 2nd Amendment is the reason for the differences, that is not the same thing as the differences in the laws themselves, which, if you were paying attention, you might have noticed was the actual topic.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

I cannot find any basis for your claim that "arguing in favor of Australia's approach to guns is inherently an argument against defensive carry."

Really? Well let me tell you then. Australia's gun laws do not accept self-defense as a legitimate reason for issuing a permit to purchase or carry a weapon. And if that sounds familiar, it's because you quoted it and then ignored it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
quote:

How has assault and rape increased in Australia since the gun ban?

Good question. Would you like to supply us with an answer? To the best of my knowledge, no one here has claimed that there has been a significant change in these stats since tighter restrictions on gun ownership were introduced.

Now you're just making shit up. The statistics were posted, direct from the website of the Australian government, and you commented on them at the time, proposing the argument that they do not prove causation, ignoring the fact that you can't prove they don't, and despite that the only claim being advanced was that they reflect a worsening situation since the inception of the ban, from which people can draw their own conclusions. That is if you don't mind, of course.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Finally the law changes did not introduce a blanket gun "ban" - they imposed restrictions of the kinds of weapons that Australians could legally possess.

Nobody claimed otherwise, so this is just verbiage thrown in for show. You might want to try a costume for greater effect.

K.



Owner59 -> RE: gun control and tragedies (3/14/2013 9:18:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

How many mass killings have there been in Australia, since the gun ban there?

Not that reality matters to the discussion.....

How much has assault and rape increased in Australia since the gun ban?

Not that thousands of defenseless victims matter to the discussion.

K.




Ummmm....

Can`t answer or won`t? [8|]

This insincerity, is why the NRA/GOP will lose this fight.....



stef -> RE: gun control and tragedies (3/14/2013 9:20:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Hey, all I can do is try. I cant convert the hard core nut cases who believe guns solve everything.

Has anyone here said, at any time, that guns solve anything? You're venturing into RealOne and Sanity levels of strawman here.



BamaD -> RE: gun control and tragedies (3/14/2013 9:24:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: stef


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Hey, all I can do is try. I cant convert the hard core nut cases who believe guns solve everything.

Has anyone here said, at any time, that guns solve anything? You're venturing into RealOne and Sanity levels of strawman here.

Guns like war never solve anything but the can determine who does solve things



Kirata -> RE: gun control and tragedies (3/14/2013 9:26:09 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Can`t answer or won`t? [8|]

This insincerity, is why the NRA/GOP will lose this fight.....

And this is evidence that you haven't even bothered to follow this thread, you're just dropping in to pollute it with pot-shots without having a clue what you're talking about.

K.



BamaD -> RE: gun control and tragedies (3/14/2013 9:36:28 PM)

Gun ownership in Australia is a privilage thus an individual needs to prove to the government why they need one.
Gun ownership in America is a right so the Government needs to prove why an individual shouldn't have one to block it.
Americans and Australians thus have a disconect on the subject, we have a completly different fram of reference.
American gun grabbers do not seem to understand the difference.



tazzygirl -> RE: gun control and tragedies (3/14/2013 9:38:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: stef


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Hey, all I can do is try. I cant convert the hard core nut cases who believe guns solve everything.

Has anyone here said, at any time, that guns solve anything? You're venturing into RealOne and Sanity levels of strawman here.


Considering many have said that removing guns wont solve anything... yeah. [;)]



tweakabelle -> RE: gun control and tragedies (3/14/2013 9:43:51 PM)

quote:

Kirata

quote:

tweakabelle

I cannot find any basis for your claim that "arguing in favor of Australia's approach to guns is inherently an argument against defensive carry."


Really? Well let me tell you then. Australia's gun laws do not accept self-defense as a legitimate reason for issuing a permit to purchase or carry a weapon. And if that sounds familiar, it's because you quoted it and then ignored it.


My point was the laws that govern issuing gun licences do not necessarily imply anything about how those arms must be carried and therefore are not "inherently an argument against defensive carry." I still await the reason for your insistence that there is an "inherent" connection between the two.


quote:

tweakabelle
quote:

Kirata

How has assault and rape increased in Australia since the gun ban?


Good question. Would you like to supply us with an answer? To the best of my knowledge, no one here has claimed that there has been a significant change in these stats since tighter restrictions on gun ownership were introduced.
quote:


Kirata
Now you're just making shit up. The statistics were posted, direct from the website of the Australian government ......


There appears to be some confusion about what the word 'here' means. By "no one here" I meant "no one here in Australia" as opposed to the USA. You appear to be interpreting "no one here" as "no one here at CollarMe". Which is unintended but not unreasonable. My lack of clarity is responsible for this confusion. Below is a version of version of the paragraph in question, slightly amended to eliminate that lack of clarity:

To the best of my knowledge, no one here [in Australia] has claimed that there has been a significant change in these stats since tighter restrictions on gun ownership were introduced. I have never heard anyone here [in Australia] claim that increases in the incidence of assault and rape (if any) are because of, or even related to the changes in gun laws. There's a good reason for that - anyone who made such a claim would be inviting universal derision and ridicule.
I invite your response.

And I still await your answer to the question "How has assault and rape increased in Australia since the gun ban?



Kirata -> RE: gun control and tragedies (3/14/2013 9:46:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: stef
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Hey, all I can do is try. I cant convert the hard core nut cases who believe guns solve everything.

Has anyone here said, at any time, that guns solve anything? You're venturing into RealOne and Sanity levels of strawman here.

Well credit where due, it's a step up from the gutter of sexual "stroking your gun" comments that featured in her earlier posts.

K.



tazzygirl -> RE: gun control and tragedies (3/14/2013 9:47:50 PM)

I figured you were done by now. [;)]



PeonForHer -> RE: gun control and tragedies (3/14/2013 9:51:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: stef
Has anyone here said, at any time, that guns solve anything?


What? Jeez, if we can't take that as at least implied by gun-fans, the days of gun-freedom are numbered indeed.



BamaD -> RE: gun control and tragedies (3/14/2013 9:52:57 PM)

How does not thinking that a gun ban will solve anything prove you believe that guns will solve everything unless you are using binary thinking one or the other on off black white?



dcnovice -> RE: gun control and tragedies (3/14/2013 9:54:17 PM)

quote:

Has anyone here said, at any time, that guns solve anything?

Weren't there heart-warming tales earlier in the thread about how guns saved the lives of kids who were home alone when intruders arrived? (Or was that a different gun thread? They kinda blur after a while.)

The NRA's Armed Citizen Blog has page after page of similarly edifying examples.

If guns don't solve anything, what's the point of owning one (or twenty or several hundred)?



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