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RE: Muslim thugs - 3/27/2013 8:45:10 PM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani

Can you read? Did Jesus say you can have four wives and I'll have 9?

Here you go

Much as it pains me to be in the position of appearing to defend MrBukani, there isn't a single pane in that chart that quotes Jesus. And should it occur to someone to trot out the argument, any presumption that "one jot or one tittle" includes every bizarro law to be found in the Pentateuch is patently absurd in the context of Christ's teachings, despite the appeal that notion holds for wacko fundamentalists and certain quarrelsome atheists. In short, a picture of swiss cheese has more connection to the Moon than that chart has to anything that Jesus ever said.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 3/27/2013 9:35:57 PM >

(in reply to GotSteel)

Post #: 141

RE: Muslim thugs - 3/27/2013 11:58:35 PM

tweakabelle

Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

[The claim that Islam is more thuggish towards women than other religions has been] Dismissed, not disproven.

As you are no doubt aware, claims need to be proven. Thus far in this thread, there has been no evidence of substance advanced to support this claim. OTOH evidence has been advanced to establish that the kind of thuggishness described in the OP is not prevalent in all majority Muslim cultures. We might also note that all major religions relegate women to a subordinate role. Furthermore, the kind of thuggishness described in the OP seems to be replicated in Christian texts (eg. Deuteronomy).

All of which suggests that thuggishness towards women is not unique to Islam, nor is it universal within Islam. Therefore, it seems to me that the claim that Islam is more thuggish towards women than other religions is dead in the water. If you wish to assert that the claim is still viable it becomes incumbent on you to advance serious evidence to substantiate the claim, and offer compelling reasons why the evidence mentioned above isn't convincing.

Until such evidence and analysis is provided, there doesn't appear to be any reason to take the claim seriously. As things stand, the only rational options are to either dismiss it completely or modify the claim to such an extent that it becomes meaningless.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 3/28/2013 12:12:00 AM >

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Post #: 142

RE: Muslim thugs - 3/28/2013 12:28:16 AM

Kirata

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From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

the kind of thuggishness described in the OP is not prevalent in all majority Muslim cultures... Furthermore, the kind of thuggishness described in the OP seems to be replicated in Christian texts (eg. Deuteronomy).

Deuteronomy is not a "Christian text," and comparing acts of mayhem by Islamic Radicals in the present to the those committed by primitive tribes thousands of years ago is more of an indictment than a defense.

K.

(in reply to tweakabelle)

Post #: 143

RE: Muslim thugs - 3/28/2013 3:26:21 AM

Politesub53

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

Deuteronomy is not a "Christian text," and comparing acts of mayhem by Islamic Radicals in the present to the those committed by primitive tribes thousands of years ago is more of an indictment than a defense.

K.[/font][/size]

You dont have to go back far to find mayhem committed in the name of Christianity.

(in reply to Kirata)

Post #: 144

RE: Muslim thugs - 3/28/2013 4:04:33 AM

Level

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Joined: 3/3/2006
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Large groups of Christians stoning or beating rape victims?

ALL religious groups have done terrible things in the name of their religion. In GENERAL, they have moved beyond that, EXCEPT for Islam.

If I had a daughter, and if I waa sending her abroad for whatever reason, and my choices were to send her to either Sweden, Japan, and New Zealand, OR Iran, Pakistan, and Yemen, hmmmm, which group would I prefer?

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to Politesub53)

Post #: 145

RE: Muslim thugs - 3/28/2013 4:45:16 AM

tweakabelle

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Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

Deuteronomy is not a "Christian text," and comparing acts of mayhem by Islamic Radicals in the present to the those committed by primitive tribes thousands of years ago is more of an indictment than a defense.

K.[/font][/size]

You dont have to go back far to find mayhem committed in the name of Christianity.

Actually crimes against women are still occurring in Christendom. Under the so-called 'foetal personhood' laws currently operative in some US States, a woman miscarrying can end up in prison serving a life sentence for murder.
'
Is 'legal' thuggery of this nature such a far cry from the 'religious' thuggery in the OP?

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Post #: 146

RE: Muslim thugs - 3/28/2013 5:29:24 AM

Kirata

Posts: 15477
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From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Under the so-called 'foetal personhood' laws currently operative in some US States, a woman miscarrying can end up in prison serving a life sentence for murder.

And what U.S. states would those be, hmmm? Specifically.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Is 'legal' thuggery of this nature such a far cry from the 'religious' thuggery in the OP?

Do you seriously want to compare the sanctioning of countless horric executions of females, including underage girls, with laws designed to punish attacks on pregnant women by making the perpetrator(s) subject to a murder charge if she loses her pregnancy, and to multiple murder charges if she dies along with her unborn?

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 3/28/2013 6:05:40 AM >

(in reply to tweakabelle)

Post #: 147

RE: Muslim thugs - 3/28/2013 6:22:33 AM

tweakabelle

Posts: 7522
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From: Sydney Australia
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quote:

Kirata
[...] laws designed to punish attacks on pregnant women by making their perpetrators subject to a murder charge if she loses her pregnancy, and to multiple murder charges if she dies along with her unborn?

Such a laudable 'intent'. Such a shame that, in reality, these laws fail abjectly to live up to these ideals and are used instead as yet another religiously-/State-inspired attempt to control and police womens' reproduction.

"Rennie Gibbs is accused of murder, but the crime she is alleged to have committed does not sound like an ordinary killing. Yet she faces life in prison in Mississippi over the death of her unborn child.

Gibbs became pregnant aged 15, but lost the baby in December 2006 in a stillbirth when she was 36 weeks into the pregnancy. When prosecutors discovered that she had a cocaine habit – though there is no evidence that drug abuse had anything to do with the baby's death – they charged her with the "depraved-heart murder" of her child, which carries a mandatory life sentence."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jun/24/america-pregnant-women-murder-charges

A recent thread here centred around the case of Bei Bei Shuai, facing murder charges in Indianapolis. Shuai miscarried following a suicide attempt, after her married lover deserted her upon learning of her pregnancy. http://www.collarchat.com/m_4399976/mpage_1/tm.htm

"In Alabama at least 40 cases have been brought under the state's "chemical endangerment" law. Introduced in 2006, the statute was designed to protect children whose parents were cooking methamphetamine in the home and thus putting their children at risk from inhaling the fumes. "."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jun/24/america-pregnant-women-murder-charges

Such noble intentions indeed. I am sure they offer so much reassurance to women imprisoned because of them. Should those women console themselves by reminding themselves that the road to Hell is paved with good intentions?

The history of religious and political attempts to control, regulate and police womens' reproduction capacity is as old as patriarchy. The manner in which these US laws are used are recent manifestations of these attempts. The despicable religiously-inspired attempts to control and police womens' reproduction capacity in the OP are another more primitive more barbaric variation on the same theme.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 3/28/2013 6:31:09 AM >

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Post #: 148

RE: Muslim thugs - 3/28/2013 7:14:47 AM

Kirata

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From: USA
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If you want me to have sympathy for pregnant women who stuff cocaine up their noses, or kill a 33 week old fetus with rat poison because they can't handle losing their fucking boyfriend, you're barking up the wrong tree. The intent of the laws is noble, and I certainly oppose them being misused, but you aren't going to wring any pity out of me with examples like that. Moreover, to equate the misuse of a well-intentioned law with the routine, institutionalized, and horrific murder of women is in my view both dishonest and disgusting.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 3/28/2013 7:24:06 AM >

(in reply to tweakabelle)

Post #: 149

RE: Muslim thugs - 3/28/2013 7:55:16 AM

tweakabelle

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From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline

.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 3/28/2013 7:56:51 AM >

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Post #: 150

RE: Muslim thugs - 3/28/2013 8:06:52 AM

tweakabelle

Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

If you want me to have sympathy for pregnant women who stuff cocaine up their noses, or kill a 33 week old fetus with rat poison because they can't handle losing their fucking boyfriend, you're barking up the wrong tree. The intent of the laws is noble, and I certainly oppose them being misused, but you aren't going to wring any pity out of me with examples like that. Moreover, to equate the misuse of a well-intentioned law with the routine, institutionalized, and horrific murder of women is in my view both dishonest and disgusting.

K.

Whatever gave you the idea that I regard you as a fountain of compassion? Such a fanciful notion indeed! Please accept my assurance that nothing could be further from the truth.

What is disgusting and dishonest is the way these laws are used to imprison women for contrived offences as part of a larger religiously-inspired project to subvert the Supreme Court's Roe vs Wade decision and to re-impose control over women's reproductive rights. This need to control police and regulate women' fertility is found in the Maldives practice and the US practice, a fact that no amount of self-righteous grandstanding by any one can erase.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 3/28/2013 8:09:36 AM >

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Post #: 151

RE: Muslim thugs - 3/28/2013 8:37:10 AM

MorningStar01

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To the very first post...The christian/catholic church would have burnt her alive for owning a fucking cat back in the day. And now it's the Muslims who are evil? We have have been murdering women for about 1700 years....but let's pretend the "new kids on the block" are evil. Anyone ever heard the phrase.."The pot calling the kettle black ?

(in reply to searching4mysir)

Post #: 152

RE: Muslim thugs - 3/28/2013 8:39:49 AM

FunCouple5280

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Joined: 10/30/2012
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So, you believe in the idea that we can't strive for better becuase we bad in the past? that is is a very grim philosophy in life MS01.....

< Message edited by FunCouple5280 -- 3/28/2013 8:40:32 AM >

(in reply to MorningStar01)

Post #: 153

RE: Muslim thugs - 3/28/2013 8:42:53 AM

Level

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Joined: 3/3/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MorningStar01

Back in the day.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to MorningStar01)

Post #: 154

RE: Muslim thugs - 3/28/2013 8:51:08 AM

MorningStar01

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Joined: 3/26/2013
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Oh...well ...we can murder a woman yesterday and say that today is a new day and absolve ourselves and throw stones today. I don't see how Joan of Arc could relate to that idea. Do you ? "Oooo but we didn't mean it...sorry". That doesn't work for me. Yes the abuse of women is wrong...but we in the west are experts and have been at since the birth of the christian/catholic church. It is called denial.

(in reply to Level)

Post #: 155

RE: Muslim thugs - 3/28/2013 8:52:37 AM

blaso

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From: My Father, let my country awake!
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

In the Maldives, a 15 year old girl was raped and became pregnant. The thugs that run the country now want to publicly whip her (100 strokes) to punish her for being a rape victim.

I wonder if there is actually a verse in the Koran-e-Sharif that supports their decision.

I am not a Muslim, but I have read the Koran, and I don't remember any "verse" which will give them the power to punish her.

Ludicrous would be an understatement.

God (if at all He exists) bless her soul.

_____________________________

With darkness, light is truth.

(in reply to DarkSteven)

Post #: 156

RE: Muslim thugs - 3/28/2013 8:55:09 AM

blaso

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From: My Father, let my country awake!
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

In the Maldives, a 15 year old girl was raped and became pregnant. The thugs that run the country now want to publicly whip her (100 strokes) to punish her for being a rape victim.

I wonder if there is actually a verse in the Koran-e-Sharif that supports their decision.

I am not a Muslim, but I have read the Koran, and I don't remember any "verse" which will give them the power to punish her.

Ludicrous would be an understatement.

God (if at all He exists) bless her soul.

_____________________________

With darkness, light is truth.

(in reply to DarkSteven)

Post #: 157

RE: Muslim thugs - 3/28/2013 8:59:53 AM

FunCouple5280

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So just because some ancestral twit burned a french woman at the stake, we have to turn a blind eye to gender injustice today? Take your head out of you butt MS01.

(in reply to MorningStar01)

Post #: 158

RE: Muslim thugs - 3/28/2013 9:12:40 AM

MorningStar01

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Fun couple? Do you know that the Old Testament states that women have no souls..like dogs....er...fact. That is today...not back in the day. Oh..I belivee that dogs do have souls as it is a blatant ffact that women do. Still...best to make excuses and pretend times have changed. They haven't...men rule the world and religion and in the west we have pretended that men still don't treat women like scum. Here is the news....they do ! Hmmm no female Catholic preists...because they are scum and hoars...that is true through Islam and Christianity. Don't be fooled by male lies of respect and equality...they say what you want to hear...not the truth of their true beliefs. Sorry for the wake up call.

(in reply to FunCouple5280)

Post #: 159

RE: Muslim thugs - 3/28/2013 9:42:45 AM

FunCouple5280

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Yeah you can say that stuff is in the bible, but if it were excluded it wouldn't be the bible, now would it?

It is a historical text, if you can't evolve past it, that is another issue. I would say you would be hard pressed to find a measurable percentage above 1% of the christian community that would believe women don't have souls. So, you are merely making and absurdly extreme argument. Now, I am not claiming that there is total global gender equality anywhere. Sure there is work to be done and some of us care enough to work on it.

I am just sick of people like you that would prefer we all sit there and grovel at an atrocity because we too have sins and faults....NO SHIT!! I doubt you are perfect. As long as people know they still have to improve and are striving to improve, we can look at an incident like this and be critical.

No matter how much improvement we still have to make, it is still a sin/immoral/unjust(whatever you want to say) to turn a blind eye to an evil act.

If you want to discuss the inequity of christianity, please do, but do it in the right forum and context. Otherwise, you look like a fool defending the torure and rape of a woman by Islamists.

(in reply to MorningStar01)

Post #: 160

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