quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro

quote:

ORIGINAL: NotSoNormalGuy

quote:



• Defendants claiming "stand your ground" are more likely to prevail if the victim is black. Seventy-three percent of those who killed a black person faced no penalty compared to 59 percent of those who killed a white.

There are, however, many ways to interpret all of the data. Taking your "Other Interesting Points bullet-point, for instance.. We could conclude any of the following.

Possibility 1) Juries/Courts are less likely to convict a defendant who stood his/her ground (legitimately or illegitimately) against a black person.
Possibility 2) More people are put in the position of having to legitimately 'stand-their-ground' against blacks than against whites
Possibility 3) What is the raw total of the numbers? If the sample size isn't quite large, the numbers may very well be statistically insignificant thus providing no conclusion. I'm not familiar with the number of stand-your-ground cases in Florida, so I have no frame of reference. These percentages could have been formed from 10 cases or 10 thousand.

There are other possibilities, these are just some of the more obvious.

NSNG

quote:


Then is could be racism.

quote:


Two examples come to mind, Michael Dunn who is facing Murder 1 for shooting a black teenager claiming they were playing their music too loud, he is invoking the Stand Your Ground Law.

quote:


Then there is Donald Montanez who ran an illegal tow truck operation. He towed a car claiming it was illegal park when it wasn't, under Florida Law the owner, Glenn Rich a black, had the right to reclaim his car without paying, Montanez wanted some $200.00. Montanez shot and killed Rich when he attempted to retrive his car. Montanez at his trial claimed he was Standing his Ground, however as the trial went on it was become clear Martinez was not indanger, he then claimed he was still standing his ground protecting his girlfriend, who on the stand under oath stated she was not indanger. It is now known the Montanez real name is Rivera with a long history of criminal convictions, using six social security numbers and five different aliases. Yet Florida saw fit to issue Montanez/Rivera a concealed weapons permit.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NotSoNormalGuy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro

quote:

ORIGINAL: NotSoNormalGuy

quote:



• Defendants claiming "stand your ground" are more likely to prevail if the victim is black. Seventy-three percent of those who killed a black person faced no penalty compared to 59 percent of those who killed a white.

There are, however, many ways to interpret all of the data. Taking your "Other Interesting Points bullet-point, for instance.. We could conclude any of the following.

Possibility 1) Juries/Courts are less likely to convict a defendant who stood his/her ground (legitimately or illegitimately) against a black person.
Possibility 2) More people are put in the position of having to legitimately 'stand-their-ground' against blacks than against whites
Possibility 3) What is the raw total of the numbers? If the sample size isn't quite large, the numbers may very well be statistically insignificant thus providing no conclusion. I'm not familiar with the number of stand-your-ground cases in Florida, so I have no frame of reference. These percentages could have been formed from 10 cases or 10 thousand.

There are other possibilities, these are just some of the more obvious.

NSNG

I have to pick this apart to even respond to it..

quote:


Then is could be racism.

Yes. It could be. I'm not sure why you included "Then [it]" since I covered the racism option in "Possibility 1".

quote:


Two examples come to mind, Michael Dunn who is facing Murder 1 for shooting a black teenager claiming they were playing their music too loud, he is invoking the Stand Your Ground Law.

If he would have invoked His first amendment right should we throw out freedom of speech?
Just because he invoked it doesn't mean he'll be successful in using it as a defense.
The prosecution must be pretty confident his defense will not stand up since they upgraded the charge to First Degree Murder in December.

quote:


Then there is Donald Montanez who ran an illegal tow truck operation. He towed a car claiming it was illegal park when it wasn't, under Florida Law the owner, Glenn Rich a black, had the right to reclaim his car without paying, Montanez wanted some $200.00. Montanez shot and killed Rich when he attempted to retrive his car. Montanez at his trial claimed he was Standing his Ground, however as the trial went on it was become clear Martinez was not indanger, he then claimed he was still standing his ground protecting his girlfriend, who on the stand under oath stated she was not indanger. It is now known the Montanez real name is Rivera with a long history of criminal convictions, using six social security numbers and five different aliases. Yet Florida saw fit to issue Montanez/Rivera a concealed weapons permit.

Once again, it sounds Montanez/Rivera is on trial for Murder. He is trying to use Stand-Your-Ground as a defense. If I assume your facts to be true, then it sounds like it's unlikely the defense will work. Once again, what is the problem here?

EDIT: Shame on you for using bits and pieces of a situation. Montanez/Rivera was found guilty over a year ago! His use of the stand-your-ground defense didn't work. Sounds like the law is protecting and not protecting guilty people who commit murder. Where's the issue here?

After nearly 12 hours of deliberation, six jurors found Montanez guilty of manslaughter and third-degree felony murder because he was committing grand theft auto when he fatally shot Glen Rich.

NSNG

quote:

ORIGINAL: Charles6682

I live in Florida too.Some parts of Florida are safer than others..Some areas are very nice and safe.While other areas are "crime ridden" with boarded up houses,garbage everywhere.Most urban areas have these same problems.There are some parts in Florida where less guns would be a good thing.
Like the urban areas.You can't expect the same laws in some rural county of Florida to have the same impact in the more urban areas of Florida.

Another thing that needs reform here in Florida is the "Stand Your Ground" laws.I am glad to see that the study to reform "Stand Your Ground" by Governor Rick Scott has all but been ignored.The Lt.Governor had to resign last week due to corruption.These Florida Republicans need to go as they have proven they do not have Floridas best interest at heart.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro

First of all I don't feel any shame...

You never do. Well you don't either

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro

when you say innocent people who defend their lives" are you referring to people like Michael Dunn, Rodriguez and Montanez?

Okay, I'm gonna take a wild guess here. Just gimmie a second.
A Second is up but I know your answer anyway, Dunn, Rodriguez and Montanez, just armed law abiding gun owners protecting their 2nd Amendment rights against unarmed innocent crazed liberals.
K.

quote:

First of all I don't feel any shame, what did you want the entire record of trial? This thread as a part of the conversation is that guns in the public hand and being allowed to carry them make it safer, and reduces crime for the criminals including those suicide (that is a crime?) are now in fear of armed citizens. My question is are they? In using the Montanez/Rivera case show that a career criminal who should not have been able to legally obtain firearms and a concealed weapons permit, did. In Florida getting a concealed weapons permit is a matter of an 8 hour class, a few forms and paying a fee, no back ground check. The only reason Montanez/Rivera was discovered, the State Prison did a background check. Further in the Michael Dunn case, we also see a “law abiding gun owner” use his 2nd Amendment rights to kill a teenage for playing his music too loud. This type of incident is not the first of it kind. In Texas a man, Raul Rodriguez was convicted of murder, he used the Texas stand your ground law as his defense and also he had a concealed weapons permit, in fact at trial witness testified Rodriguez bragged that with his concealed weapons permit, and the stand your ground law he could kill anybody and get away with it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


No Dunn did not use his 2nd admendment rights, he abused them.

And an innocent person is dead.

Rodriguez was convicted, proving that stand your ground DID NOT PROTECT him.

Considering he had to attend a class it appears he learned something, "I can get away with murder"
Rivera no doubt used a fake, "clean" id what do you want gun shops to do get a DNA test?

How about a background check, they require a finger print card but that is only put on file. The State Prison did a check of his fingers prints, that is how they found out about him

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


No Dunn did not use his 2nd admendment rights, he abused them.

And an innocent person is dead.

Rodriguez was convicted, proving that stand your ground DID NOT PROTECT him.

Considering he had to attend a class it appears he learned something, "I can get away with murder"
Rivera no doubt used a fake, "clean" id what do you want gun shops to do get a DNA test?

How about a background check, they require a finger print card but that is only put on file. The State Prison did a check of his fingers prints, that is how they found out about him

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


No Dunn did not use his 2nd admendment rights, he abused them.

And an innocent person is dead.

Rodriguez was convicted, proving that stand your ground DID NOT PROTECT him.

Considering he had to attend a class it appears he learned something, "I can get away with murder"
Rivera no doubt used a fake, "clean" id what do you want gun shops to do get a DNA test?

How about a background check, they require a finger print card but that is only put on file. The State Prison did a check of his fingers prints, that is how they found out about him

1 That would be abusing his rights not exersicing them, it is a right to bear arms there is no right to commit murder.

2 The comment allegdly made by Rodriguiz proves that he didn't learn anything in class.

So you are saying Rodriguiz did not learn to be a law abiding gun owner, yet he gets to keep his gun and look what happen

3 So now you want every gun shop to have someone certified to take fingerprints?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro

Now here is a good story on one of those NRA law abiding gun owners if there is such a thing..

http://americablog.com/2013/02/vigilante-walmart-shopper-opens-fire-on-shoplifter-hits-three-cars.html

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Violent rimes is down in all states.....not just the ones with liberal gun rules......The rush to self-congratulate reveals a defensiveness....a rush to judgment.



Do the gun-rag`s consideration of Florida`s "crime figures" take into account crimes like the one George Zimmerman committed....the crimes that CC caused or contributed to?

quote:

ORIGINAL: RacerJim



Do the anti-2nd Amendment proponents take into account that George Zimmerman has not been convicted of having committed a crime...the incident that a young punk caused?

quote:

ORIGINAL: RacerJim

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Violent rimes is down in all states.....not just the ones with liberal gun rules......The rush to self-congratulate reveals a defensiveness....a rush to judgment.



Do the gun-rag`s consideration of Florida`s "crime figures" take into account crimes like the one George Zimmerman committed....the crimes that CC caused or contributed to?

Do the anti-2nd Amendment proponents take into account that George Zimmerman has not been convicted of having committed a crime...the incident that a young punk caused?