RE: Amanda Knox retrial? (Full Version)

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LafayetteLady -> RE: Amanda Knox retrial? (3/27/2013 12:25:39 PM)

There hasn't been a decision for a new trial, so no such defense fund is necessary. The case has been sent back to the appeals court for REVIEW, to make a determination if there should be a new trial. Totally different thing.




WantsOfTheFlesh -> RE: Amanda Knox retrial? (3/27/2013 12:32:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444
quote:

ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh
do ya not think tha massive fundraisers to cover her court costs didnt make much difference?

tha money shes getting for her "memoir" is massive compared to others http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/jacketcopy/2012/02/amanda-knox-gets-4-million-book-deal.html & pretty insensitive when tha kerchers refused to sue her coz they said no one should make money from tha murder of their daughter.

just hope tha book aint like tha lies she & her parents made up bout tha police & other parties http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amanda_Knox#Related_legal_proceedings

Yes, I am fully aware she got 4 million as an advance. I have no idea what funds were raised before but I expect much or all went to cover the previous court & defense costs.. this is another new trial with new court costs in addition to those.. plus the family has spent money travelling back and forth and doing whatever they could to help her.. so her lawyer or whoever negotiated a good advance for this book, so what? I expect she will be spending at least a million or even two on this new defence and then even more if years from now there are appeals etc.. Imo, a good chunk of that money is already set aside for those costs.. as far as whatever is left after that.. how easy will it be for her to get a job when she finishes her schooling? I think she will have a hard time of that since so many people want to believe she is the devil and "got away with murder"..

sorry to offend but yr post is one big lot of excuses & assumptions. dunno if ya just want to believe shes innocent. i can understand that coz tha american media was very pro knox. the case can be debated for days. yup there is doubts bout some proofs but she lied so much its pretty obvious she was involved even if she didnt kill kercher. all tha bs she gave bout tha police, tha weird testimony bout dreams of being there http://digitaljournal.com/article/309738 & then she accused a totally innocent black african guy of tha murder http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/therootdc/post/remembering-amanda-knoxs-lie/2011/10/17/gIQAtQV7rL_blog.html whose life was destroyed afterward, just doesnt look like someone pure as tha snow.

just google amanda knox fundraiser & ya will see listings of many big events. they probably covered all her & her familys expenses. they must have funded her big pr campaign too.

legal costs of a million are unlikely coz shes just paying her own way not tha prosecutions costs as well. anyway far as i know she got tha deal long before news of any new trial.




tj444 -> RE: Amanda Knox retrial? (3/27/2013 1:18:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

There hasn't been a decision for a new trial, so no such defense fund is necessary. The case has been sent back to the appeals court for REVIEW, to make a determination if there should be a new trial. Totally different thing.

I guess you dont believe in preparing for the worst but hoping for the best, huh?.. cuz if i was her, I would stash that money away should i need it down the road for the defense (she/her lawyer has said they will vigorously defend if there is a trail, that means its gonna cost a lot)..




eulero83 -> RE: Amanda Knox retrial? (3/27/2013 1:30:13 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh
then she accused a totally innocent black african guy of tha murder


There is something to add about this, in italy there are not many black people, mostly are african immigrants working and don't hang out with students, so she had a lot of good luck accusing the only other person she knew that could be confused with Guede by a witness that saw him running away from the scene...




tj444 -> RE: Amanda Knox retrial? (3/27/2013 1:50:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh

sorry to offend but yr post is one big lot of excuses & assumptions. dunno if ya just want to believe shes innocent. i can understand that coz tha american media was very pro knox. the case can be debated for days. yup there is doubts bout some proofs but she lied so much its pretty obvious she was involved even if she didnt kill kercher. all tha bs she gave bout tha police, tha weird testimony bout dreams of being there http://digitaljournal.com/article/309738 & then she accused a totally innocent black african guy of tha murder http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/therootdc/post/remembering-amanda-knoxs-lie/2011/10/17/gIQAtQV7rL_blog.html whose life was destroyed afterward, just doesnt look like someone pure as tha snow.

just google amanda knox fundraiser & ya will see listings of many big events. they probably covered all her & her familys expenses. they must have funded her big pr campaign too.

legal costs of a million are unlikely coz shes just paying her own way not tha prosecutions costs as well. anyway far as i know she got tha deal long before news of any new trial.

lol I expect her lawyer told her when she left Italy or even when she was still in jail waiting to appeal that these events were possible or even likely & if there was to be a new trial it would go on for years, which imo is why she left Italy immediately after being released and why she decided to do the book deal.. to pay for her defense if that is the way things went..

I never paid any attention to any of the media about her trial & being in jail, only now and the fact that there isnt any dna evidence of hers is what speaks volumes to me.. btw, I am not an American so if the American media was pro knox, that media coverage was before I even came to the US.. what i base my belief that she is innocent is that if she was involved then there would be dna & other evidence which there is not one bit.. As far as her "confession" goes.. I discount it since lots of innocent people eventually break down after hour after hour after hour of police interrogation (I believe hers was 30 hours long) and have admitted to crimes when they were no where near the crime scene or had a thing to do with it.. some of those innocent people end up spending decades in jail, all because they cant stand up to the interrogation they are put under..

You go ahead and believe what you want, you wont change my mind on it since again, there is no evidence she or her boyfriend had anything to do with it..




eulero83 -> RE: Amanda Knox retrial? (3/27/2013 2:26:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

There hasn't been a decision for a new trial, so no such defense fund is necessary. The case has been sent back to the appeals court for REVIEW, to make a determination if there should be a new trial. Totally different thing.


again you are thinking like it would work in the US in italy it's different any trial is composed by two judice and a review, always! you are not guilty or innocent untill the review isn't over, the review court can only cancel part of or the whole the appeal judgment but only if the appeal court did mistakes in law application, so they don't examinate proofs but only judges' job, if you had a conviction verdict during the appeal the review court can only give a shorter conviction or acquitance, if you are acquitted by the review court the trial is over and no-one can appeal and there can't be a new trial, but if they delet a not guilty verdict the appeal has to be repeted because the review court can't order a conviction, and you are free untill the hypothetical guilty verditc is declared definitve by the review court, so after 4 years.

so a full ritual trial in italy works this way:

step one
first level judgement : not guilty ----> prosecutor is cool with this ----> you are free and no other trial can start
'----> prosecutor is not cool with this ----> you are free but there will be an appeal judgement
first level judgement : guilty ----> you are not cool with this ----> you are in jail and there will be an appeal judgement
step 2
appeal judgement : not guilty ----> prosecutor is cool with this ----> you are free (if you were not since the first judice) and no other trial can start
'----> prosecutor is not cool with this ----> you are free (if you were not since the first judice) but there will be a review
appeal judgement : guilty ----> you are not cool with this ----> you are in jail and there will be a review
step 3
review verdict: the appeal was fine ----> if you were free and during appeal found guilty you'll be arrested and convicted, if you where convicted you can't have a new trial if no new proofs are found, if during appeal found not guilty it's over and you can be charged again
review verdict: the appeal judges did bad ----> if you were found guilty in appeal conviction is reduced or you are acquitted and no other trial can start if no new proofs are found, it you where found not guilty in appeal you are not arrested but step 2 is repeted by other judges not the same who did the mess




WantsOfTheFlesh -> RE: Amanda Knox retrial? (3/27/2013 3:02:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444
lol I expect her lawyer told her when she left Italy or even when she was still in jail waiting to appeal that these events were possible or even likely & if there was to be a new trial it would go on for years, which imo is why she left Italy immediately after being released and why she decided to do the book deal.. to pay for her defense if that is the way things went..

tha decision to retry her was deemed a surprise http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/9956090/Amanda-Knox-ready-to-fight-after-judges-order-new-murder-trial.html

quote:


what i base my belief that she is innocent is that if she was involved then there would be dna & other evidence which there is not one bit.. As far as her "confession" goes.. I discount it since lots of innocent people eventually break down after hour after hour after hour of police interrogation (I believe hers was 30 hours long) and have admitted to crimes when they were no where near the crime scene or had a thing to do with it.. some of those innocent people end up spending decades in jail, all because they cant stand up to the interrogation they are put under..

tha accounts of what happened during interrogation conflict & far as i know it wasnt proven that she was mistreated.

quote:

You go ahead and believe what you want, you wont change my mind on it since again, there is no evidence she or her boyfriend had anything to do with it..

knew i couldnt change yr mind coz i saw how prepared you were to make excuses bout her reasons for tha book deal etc. [X(]




LookieNoNookie -> RE: Amanda Knox retrial? (3/27/2013 4:49:46 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie



Semantics essentially...the result is the same.

New trial based on new information.

The Italians didn't do that. Charges are the same. Therefore, they are in violation of the US constitution which protects us.
Did you bother to read Bita's very concise explanation in post #30?


It's embarrassing to admit but....I can't read.




LookieNoNookie -> RE: Amanda Knox retrial? (3/27/2013 4:52:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

I'm sure all this will help her new book sell.


With a forward by O.J.




FullCircle -> RE: Amanda Knox retrial? (3/27/2013 5:09:22 PM)

If she gets convicted she can run for the Italian presidency.

It's a prerequisite.




tj444 -> RE: Amanda Knox retrial? (3/27/2013 5:16:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444
lol I expect her lawyer told her when she left Italy or even when she was still in jail waiting to appeal that these events were possible or even likely & if there was to be a new trial it would go on for years, which imo is why she left Italy immediately after being released and why she decided to do the book deal.. to pay for her defense if that is the way things went..

tha decision to retry her was deemed a surprise http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/9956090/Amanda-Knox-ready-to-fight-after-judges-order-new-murder-trial.html

quote:


what i base my belief that she is innocent is that if she was involved then there would be dna & other evidence which there is not one bit.. As far as her "confession" goes.. I discount it since lots of innocent people eventually break down after hour after hour after hour of police interrogation (I believe hers was 30 hours long) and have admitted to crimes when they were no where near the crime scene or had a thing to do with it.. some of those innocent people end up spending decades in jail, all because they cant stand up to the interrogation they are put under..

tha accounts of what happened during interrogation conflict & far as i know it wasnt proven that she was mistreated.

quote:

You go ahead and believe what you want, you wont change my mind on it since again, there is no evidence she or her boyfriend had anything to do with it..

knew i couldnt change yr mind coz i saw how prepared you were to make excuses bout her reasons for tha book deal etc. [X(]

I seriously doubt it was a surprise, perhaps more likely wishful thinking that it was over and its not.. I am sure the book deal isnt just about the money, it is also her chance to tell her side of what happened.. I really doubt her book will change anyones mind about her guilt or innocence tho..
However, my mind is made up only cuz there is no evidence she or her boyfriend were in the girls room or had anything to do with her murder.. if there was a sex orgy (as the prosecutors claim) then why only one guys dna in the room and on the girls body? it simply doesnt make sense to me.. the investigators and prosecutors botched the case, plain and simple, even the time of death has been questioned as being wrong..
Knox was in a country that spoke a different language and with very different laws, being accused of a brutal crime and not knowing what rights she had, that would be incredibly scary and intimidating to anyone.. and I would consider a 30 hour interrogation to be mistreatment.. just as i would consider that mistreatment in the US or Canada.. sheesh, that would have most normal people admitting to being on the grassy knoll and shooting Kennedy!.. [8|]




Politesub53 -> RE: Amanda Knox retrial? (3/27/2013 6:04:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

Because she is an American citizen who is presently residng on American soil.
She is therefore entitled to the protections of our constitution.
When Iran issued a Fatwah on Salmon Rushdie and sentenced him to death, you didn't see us shipping him over did you? why? He was protected as a US citizen by our constitution and the Iranians could go pound sand.
Did you bother to read Bita's very concise explanation in post #30 of when the US wll extradite someone?


Way to miss the point (again) She was tried in Italy and is subject to Italian law. Your constitution has no bearing on the rest of the world, even if you think it does.




LafayetteLady -> RE: Amanda Knox retrial? (3/27/2013 7:48:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


I seriously doubt it was a surprise, perhaps more likely wishful thinking that it was over and its not.. I am sure the book deal isnt just about the money, it is also her chance to tell her side of what happened.. I really doubt her book will change anyones mind about her guilt or innocence tho..
However, my mind is made up only cuz there is no evidence she or her boyfriend were in the girls room or had anything to do with her murder.. if there was a sex orgy (as the prosecutors claim) then why only one guys dna in the room and on the girls body? it simply doesnt make sense to me.. the investigators and prosecutors botched the case, plain and simple, even the time of death has been questioned as being wrong..
Knox was in a country that spoke a different language and with very different laws, being accused of a brutal crime and not knowing what rights she had, that would be incredibly scary and intimidating to anyone.. and I would consider a 30 hour interrogation to be mistreatment.. just as i would consider that mistreatment in the US or Canada.. sheesh, that would have most normal people admitting to being on the grassy knoll and shooting Kennedy!.. [8|]


Questioning regularly takes place for that long, everywhere.

As for being in a foreign country, with a different language, laws, etc. If you are going to live in a foreign country, don't you think it behooves you to know their laws?




BamaD -> RE: Amanda Knox retrial? (3/27/2013 7:55:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

Because she is an American citizen who is presently residng on American soil.
She is therefore entitled to the protections of our constitution.
When Iran issued a Fatwah on Salmon Rushdie and sentenced him to death, you didn't see us shipping him over did you? why? He was protected as a US citizen by our constitution and the Iranians could go pound sand.
Did you bother to read Bita's very concise explanation in post #30 of when the US wll extradite someone?


Way to miss the point (again) She was tried in Italy and is subject to Italian law. Your constitution has no bearing on the rest of the world, even if you think it does.


Many European countries refuse to extridite to the U S if the defendent is facing the death penalty because it is against their principles.
Are you saying that while they have rhat right a US court cannot refuse to extridite because double jepardy is against ours?
It seems that you have missed the point.




Hillwilliam -> RE: Amanda Knox retrial? (3/27/2013 8:55:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

Because she is an American citizen who is presently residng on American soil.
She is therefore entitled to the protections of our constitution.
When Iran issued a Fatwah on Salmon Rushdie and sentenced him to death, you didn't see us shipping him over did you? why? He was protected as a US citizen by our constitution and the Iranians could go pound sand.
Did you bother to read Bita's very concise explanation in post #30 of when the US wll extradite someone?


Way to miss the point (again) She was tried in Italy and is subject to Italian law. Your constitution has no bearing on the rest of the world, even if you think it does.


In order to be extradited, an AMERICAN court will have to order it. In that court, she is afforded the protections of our constitution.
Just because another country asks for us to extradite someone doesn't mean we will send them over. Our courts say yea or nay.
If we, or anyone else, asks for a British citizen residing on your soil, your courts can say "no".
Even a non citizen can request asylum in the host country and it is up to the courts of the host country to say yea or nay according to the laws of the host country.

You didn't pay attention to my example of Rushdie did you?[8|]




tazzygirl -> RE: Amanda Knox retrial? (3/27/2013 9:05:09 PM)

~FR

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/17/world/europe/britain-refuses-to-extradite-computer-hacker-sought-in-us.html?_r=0

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/18/nyregion/portugal-refuses-to-extradite-george-wright.html

http://turtletalk.wordpress.com/2013/01/16/ontario-appeals-court-refuses-to-extradite-aboriginal-drug-couriers-to-us-because-of-harsh-sentences-and-prisoner-abuses/

Bars to extradition

By enacting laws or concluding treaties or agreements, countries determine the conditions under which they may entertain or deny extradition requests. Common bars to extradition include:

*Failure to fulfill dual criminality: generally the act for which extradition is sought must constitute a crime punishable by some minimum penalty in both the requesting and the requested parties.

*Political nature of the alleged crime: most countries refuse to extradite suspects of political crimes.

*Possibility of certain forms of punishment: some countries refuse extradition on grounds that the person, if extradited, may receive capital punishment or face torture. A few go as far as to cover all punishments that they themselves would not administer.
**Death penalty: Many countries, such as Australia, Canada, Macao,[3] and most European nations, will not allow extradition if the death penalty may be imposed on the suspect unless they are assured that the death sentence will not be passed or carried out.
**Torture, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment: Many countries will not extradite if there is a risk that a requested person will be subjected to torture, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment. In the case of Soering v United Kingdom, the European Court of Human Rights held that it would violate Article 3 of the European Convention on Human Rights to extradite a person to the United States from the United Kingdom in a capital case. This was due to the harsh conditions on death row and the uncertain timescale within which the sentence would be executed.

*Jurisdiction: Jurisdiction over a crime can be invoked to refuse extradition. In particular, the fact that the person in question is a nation's own citizen causes that country to have jurisdiction.
**Own nationals: Some countries, such as France,[4][5] Germany,[6] Russia, Austria, the People's Republic of China,[7] the Republic of China (Taiwan)[8] and Japan,[9] forbid extradition of their own nationals. These countries often have laws in place that give them jurisdiction over crimes committed abroad by or against citizens. By virtue of such jurisdiction, they prosecute and try citizens accused of crimes committed abroad as if the crime had occurred within the country's borders. Some nations refuse to extradite their own citizens, holding trials for the persons themselves (see e.g. trial of Xiao Zhen).


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extradition#Bars_to_extradition

Courts refuse to extradite all the time.




LafayetteLady -> RE: Amanda Knox retrial? (3/27/2013 11:11:31 PM)

It will be years before the US has to answer this question.

However, she is only partially protected by our constitution should extradition be ordered. It is by no means that she has blanket protection because she is back in the US.

Double jeopardy and the death penalty are very different. Plus the US is using the term "acquitted" but she actually wasn't. This is all still one trial process in Italy, so double jeopardy has not attached.

I have no clue as to Knox's guilt or innocence, but as I said before, if a US citizen had the kind of protection everyone is discussing here, people could commit any crime and return to the US without having to face penalty. Everyone must follow the laws of the country they are in when they are in it. If they don't, having returned to their native country alone will not protect them from the justice system of another country. Exceptions to this would of course be those nations whose laws tend to be barbaric, i.e. women can be murdered for "bringing shame" to their family, and of course, those countries where they are claiming political type crimes.




BamaD -> RE: Amanda Knox retrial? (3/27/2013 11:28:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

It will be years before the US has to answer this question.

However, she is only partially protected by our constitution should extradition be ordered. It is by no means that she has blanket protection because she is back in the US.

Double jeopardy and the death penalty are very different. Plus the US is using the term "acquitted" but she actually wasn't. This is all still one trial process in Italy, so double jeopardy has not attached.

I have no clue as to Knox's guilt or innocence, but as I said before, if a US citizen had the kind of protection everyone is discussing here, people could commit any crime and return to the US without having to face penalty. Everyone must follow the laws of the country they are in when they are in it. If they don't, having returned to their native country alone will not protect them from the justice system of another country. Exceptions to this would of course be those nations whose laws tend to be barbaric, i.e. women can be murdered for "bringing shame" to their family, and of course, those countries where they are claiming political type crimes.

I am not saying anything that would give Americans blanket protection. The verdict was overturned. Here that constituts double jepardy.
This would most likly be her lawers argument against extradition.
Italy does not get to decide which of our priciple come into play.
example
A canadian citizen crosses the border blows up a school killing 100 people, 85 of them children.
If Canada refuses to extridite because of the death penalty. Hasn't this person gotten away with murder because he is a Canadian citizen.

I DO NOT KNOW CANADA'S POSITION ON THIS IT IS ONLY AN EXAMPLE

P S barbaric laws are those laws the speaker doesn't agree with.




Politesub53 -> RE: Amanda Knox retrial? (3/28/2013 3:01:18 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

Many European countries refuse to extridite to the U S if the defendent is facing the death penalty because it is against their principles.
Are you saying that while they have rhat right a US court cannot refuse to extridite because double jepardy is against ours?
It seems that you have missed the point.



FFS this isnt a retrial, its a continuation of an existing case.





WantsOfTheFlesh -> RE: Amanda Knox retrial? (3/28/2013 5:34:23 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444
I seriously doubt it was a surprise, perhaps more likely wishful thinking that it was over and its not..

why doubt its a surprise when thats how it is reported all over tha place unless ya have a counterfactual?

quote:


I am sure the book deal isnt just about the money, it is also her chance to tell her side of what happened.. I really doubt her book will change anyones mind about her guilt or innocence tho..

yup i agree its also knoxys apologia. i think it would change minds coz it is being given massive publicity. shes not postponing tha publicity despite tha retrial either.

quote:

However, my mind is made up only cuz there is no evidence she or her boyfriend were in the girls room or had anything to do with her murder.. if there was a sex orgy (as the prosecutors claim) then why only one guys dna in the room and on the girls body? it simply doesnt make sense to me.. the investigators and prosecutors botched the case, plain and simple, even the time of death has been questioned as being wrong..

tha sex orgy thing was postulation based on tha evidence they had but wouldnt preclude moving tha body. all sorts of things are questioned in trials including time of death. i agree tho they mishandled tha dna evidence but thats not enough to say she had no involvement in tha murder. her bahaviour, changes to her story & extreme lies are real causes to think tha opposite. do ya not even consider it suspicious that she sent a totally innocent guy to prison for weeks until tha police found he couldnt have been involved?




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