RE: Amanda Knox retrial?

RE: Amanda Knox retrial? (Full Version)

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Marini -> RE: Amanda Knox retrial? (3/26/2013 9:50:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: absolutchocolat FR She doesn't have to go back to Italy to be re-tried and convicted. She can be found guilty and then international travel would really be burdensome... Also, not all of us "Yanks" find her so appealing. It is difficult to tell whether justice was served in her case or not; this fiasco stinks on all sides to me. I have always wondered about this case. Something just does not add up here. Something just is not right about the whole situation. I am not saying I think she is guilty, I am just saying I think the truth is somewhere in the middle. As far as the retrial, I guess you need to know Italian law. How many times can you be tried for the same crimes in Italy? I think Amanda could happily live in the USA and throw away her passport, and not look back.

slvemike4u -> RE: Amanda Knox retrial? (3/26/2013 9:57:27 PM)
Plenty of vacation destination in the good old U S of A.....lol

tj444 -> RE: Amanda Knox retrial? (3/26/2013 11:09:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u Plenty of vacation destination in the good old U S of A.....lol she could go to countries that dont have an extradition treaty with Italy.. sounds like she wants to be found not guilty and clear her name regardless tho..

LafayetteLady -> RE: Amanda Knox retrial? (3/26/2013 11:13:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady The US Constitution DOES NOT protect US Citizens from crimes in other countries, just like people who have committed crimes in this country are not protected by their native countries laws. This may or may not be considered double jeopardy, it remains to be seen. If I were Amanda Knox I wouldn't be thumbing my nose at the Italians going, "Na, na, you can't get me." How exactly does that work ? She is home,but not due the protections of the same Constitution that protects the rest of us ? Really ? By what logic does that work,did she return from Italy as some sort of half citizen ? Since the very foundation of the US justice system is "innocence till proof of guilt" how and under what reasoning's have some of her protections been stripped away prior to a finding of guilt ? She is completely entitled to the protections afforded her in the Constitution, as long as she is in the United States, and any crime she commits is in the United States. Look at it this way.... If someone from one of those Middle Eastern countries where it is ok to murder a female family member if she is raped, did so here, are they afforded the protections of their native country for doing so, or do they have to abide by the laws of the country they commit the crime? This is essentially the same thing. Likewise, a defendant's right to face their accuser here. Not really needed in Italy, since she can be retried in absentia. If it worked the way you are assuming, then every psycho on the planet could murder, rape, rob, do whatever across the border, but once here, they would be safe. As for the double jeopardy, by Italian law, it has not attached as of yet. That CAN make a difference. Simply being an American Citizen, on American soil doesn't mean that you are immune from prosecution outside our borders. We have an extradition treaty with Italy and have for quite some time. Only time will tell how this pans out. Incidentally, she wasn't found innocent of the crimes she was accused of. "Not guilty" (which wasn't the new verdict) and "Acquittal" don't equate with innocence. The higher court simply admitted that the investigation was botched, so evidence was questionable. Neither did the higher court actually overturn the acquittal. They sent it back to the lower appeals court to review. That could mean a new trial, it could lead to them reviewing it and standing by their decision to acquit. Unsurprisingly, the OP didn't get her facts correct. Now, given that it is highly unlikely they will be able to use a lot of their evidence in a new trial, I doubt the appeals court will remand it for a new trial. Does that help you understand?

YN -> RE: Amanda Knox retrial? (3/26/2013 11:21:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady As for the double jeopardy, by Italian law, it has not attached as of yet. That CAN make a difference. Simply being an American Citizen, on American soil doesn't mean that you are immune from prosecution outside our borders. We have an extradition treaty with Italy and have for quite some time. Only time will tell how this pans out. Incidentally, she wasn't found innocent of the crimes she was accused of. "Not guilty" (which wasn't the new verdict) and "Acquittal" don't equate with innocence. The higher court simply admitted that the investigation was botched, so evidence was questionable. Neither did the higher court actually overturn the acquittal. They sent it back to the lower appeals court to review. That could mean a new trial, it could lead to them reviewing it and standing by their decision to acquit. Unsurprisingly, the OP didn't get her facts correct. Now, given that it is highly unlikely they will be able to use a lot of their evidence in a new trial, I doubt the appeals court will remand it for a new trial. A very nice summary of the matter.

Just0Plain0Mike -> RE: Amanda Knox retrial? (3/26/2013 11:28:07 PM)
It's the same as if someone committed a crime here in the US and then fled to another country to avoid prosecution. If they're arrested, the US will ask for extradition so that they can be tried here. It doesn't always work, Roman Polanski has been hiding in France since '78 after being accused of having sex with a 13 year old actress, but if we have an extradition treaty with the country they're supposed to turn them over.

LafayetteLady -> RE: Amanda Knox retrial? (3/27/2013 2:04:14 AM)
Thank you.

eulero83 -> RE: Amanda Knox retrial? (3/27/2013 2:19:01 AM)
It's something I already wrote but it was after some text, Amanada Knox is not to be arrested for italian law untill a conviction order is given in the new trial and it's confirmed by the review court and it will take some years, so actually there is no way extradition will be asked as she never had a guilty verdict by the review court, like her former boyfriend Sollecito, who is also accused of taking part in the murder, will not be arrested. Another user already wrote how a trial in Italy works, there are also some other differences in the whole idea of trial, for tialian costitution a defendant is considered innocent untill a guilt verdict is confirmed by the "corte di cassazione" a trial is composed in three parts a first grade judice an appeal judice and a review by the "corte di cassazione", untill the review court has not confirmed a guilty verdict from the apeal court the trial is not over and you are considered innocent for the law. Being jailed is a different matter, you are jailed only if there are strong suspicion you committed a crime and you are likely to escape trial, or it's probable you'll repeat the crime if free, there's no thing like bail so or there are evidence you are a danger for society or you are not jailed but home arrested or be under social service responsibility. A judgement of acquittal in first grade or appeal doesn't mean you are innocent or guilty but means there are no stron suspicion you committed the crime so there is no need of a cautelative measure.

Phoenixpower -> RE: Amanda Knox retrial? (3/27/2013 4:00:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Just0Plain0Mike It's the same as if someone committed a crime here in the US and then fled to another country to avoid prosecution. If they're arrested, the US will ask for extradition so that they can be tried here. It doesn't always work, Roman Polanski has been hiding in France since '78 after being accused of having sex with a 13 year old actress, but if we have an extradition treaty with the country they're supposed to turn them over. And Amanda Knox did not even flee to America...she went back home legally....

Level -> RE: Amanda Knox retrial? (3/27/2013 4:06:10 AM)
I'm sure all this will help her new book sell.

vincentML -> RE: Amanda Knox retrial? (3/27/2013 4:17:18 AM)
quote: Now, given that it is highly unlikely they will be able to use a lot of their evidence in a new trial, I doubt the appeals court will remand it for a new trial. Not sure there is any evidence. She and her bf were accused on the word of the real killer/rapist whose DNA is all over the scene and in the victim's vagina. The killer traded Amanda for a reduced sentence.

WantsOfTheFlesh -> RE: Amanda Knox retrial? (3/27/2013 5:33:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Level I'm sure all this will help her new book sell. no doubt her 4 mil advance is worth it.

tj444 -> RE: Amanda Knox retrial? (3/27/2013 6:22:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh quote: ORIGINAL: Level I'm sure all this will help her new book sell. no doubt her 4 mil advance is worth it. she has a lawyer acting on her behalf for this new trial, she has to pay him with something.. it will be long and expensive.. and also her family has already spent a small fortune supporting her and trying to help free her..

eulero83 -> RE: Amanda Knox retrial? (3/27/2013 6:57:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML Not sure there is any evidence. She and her bf were accused on the word of the real killer/rapist whose DNA is all over the scene and in the victim's vagina. The killer traded Amanda for a reduced sentence. That's not true, they have been accused a long time before Guede was arrested, and there is no possibility of having a reduced sentence trading someone in italian law as there is nothing like pleading guilty for a reduced sentence in the beginning of a trial you are always pleading innocent, he had a reduced sentence because he choosed a different kind of trial called "short ritual", he could be found guilty or innocent in the end, he just accepted that what witnesses declared during investigation and there was no need to contest them in court, but he could give his deposition and produce any kind of evidence in his favor, this reduce the sentence by one third so from 30 years conviction to 20 years, but only if you are found guilty. In the beginning Raffaele and Amanda were just part of the investigation as witness, than proof of their presence on the scene and about their active role in hiding Meredith mobile phone, so Amanda accused her employer Lumumba, he was soon found innocent as he had a strong alibi (he asked for Amanda's incrimination for defamation, she's been found guilty and sentenced to three years conviction that she already served during the first grade trial) just after Lumumba's release for the first time the name of Guede appeared.

Fightdirecto -> RE: Amanda Knox retrial? (3/27/2013 7:04:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Marini As far as the retrial, I guess you need to know Italian law. How many times can you be tried for the same crimes in Italy? I lived in Italy for a number of years in the mid-1970's and learned a little about Italian law. Under Italian law, a person can be tried for the same crime as many times as the prosecutors can convince the Court that they should be re-tried. So, hypothetically, Knox could be re-tried for the murder, acquitted, re-tried, acquitted, re-tried, acquitted, re-tried, acquitted, re-tried, acquitted, re-tried, acquitted - until she is convicted (at which case, she could appeal her conviction and get another re-trial) or dies of old age.

WantsOfTheFlesh -> RE: Amanda Knox retrial? (3/27/2013 7:18:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tj444 quote: ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh quote: ORIGINAL: Level I'm sure all this will help her new book sell. no doubt her 4 mil advance is worth it. she has a lawyer acting on her behalf for this new trial, she has to pay him with something.. it will be long and expensive.. and also her family has already spent a small fortune supporting her and trying to help free her.. do ya not think tha massive fundraisers to cover her court costs didnt make much difference? tha money shes getting for her "memoir" is massive compared to others http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/jacketcopy/2012/02/amanda-knox-gets-4-million-book-deal.html & pretty insensitive when tha kerchers refused to sue her coz they said no one should make money from tha murder of their daughter. just hope tha book aint like tha lies she & her parents made up bout tha police & other parties http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amanda_Knox#Related_legal_proceedings

Mammiloveshergir -> RE: Amanda Knox retrial? (3/27/2013 7:28:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto quote: ORIGINAL: Marini As far as the retrial, I guess you need to know Italian law. How many times can you be tried for the same crimes in Italy? I lived in Italy for a number of years in the mid-1970's and learned a little about Italian law. Under Italian law, a person can be tried for the same crime as many times as the prosecutors can convince the Court that they should be re-tried. So, hypothetically, Knox could be re-tried for the murder, acquitted, re-tried, acquitted, re-tried, acquitted, re-tried, acquitted, re-tried, acquitted, re-tried, acquitted - until she is convicted (at which case, she could appeal her conviction and get another re-trial) or dies of old age. hypothetically yes but in fact only if every time new evidence is produced after the old verdict and before a re-trial, or proof the old trial was flawed

YN -> RE: Amanda Knox retrial? (3/27/2013 7:51:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mammiloveshergir quote: ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto quote: ORIGINAL: Marini As far as the retrial, I guess you need to know Italian law. How many times can you be tried for the same crimes in Italy? I lived in Italy for a number of years in the mid-1970's and learned a little about Italian law. Under Italian law, a person can be tried for the same crime as many times as the prosecutors can convince the Court that they should be re-tried. So, hypothetically, Knox could be re-tried for the murder, acquitted, re-tried, acquitted, re-tried, acquitted, re-tried, acquitted, re-tried, acquitted, re-tried, acquitted - until she is convicted (at which case, she could appeal her conviction and get another re-trial) or dies of old age. hypothetically yes but in fact only if every time new evidence is produced after the old verdict and before a re-trial, or proof the old trial was flawed The examining magistrate (and the judicial police investigators) would find himself in very hot water if he did not explain how this "new evidence" was actually new evidence he had found and not missed earlier due to lack of diligence in his investigations in such a case. You are not entitled to keep some evidence as insurance against an acquittal (or a conviction) to haul out and use in such a case, the "new evidence" both of guilt and of innocence must be genuinely new evidence not available during the earlier trial. In a case concerning ongoing organized crime, none expects the court to ever hear the full truth, but a murder that isn't properly investigated questions the sincerity and competence of the prosecuting authorities.

eulero83 -> RE: Amanda Knox retrial? (3/27/2013 8:01:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto quote: ORIGINAL: Marini As far as the retrial, I guess you need to know Italian law. How many times can you be tried for the same crimes in Italy? I lived in Italy for a number of years in the mid-1970's and learned a little about Italian law. Under Italian law, a person can be tried for the same crime as many times as the prosecutors can convince the Court that they should be re-tried. So, hypothetically, Knox could be re-tried for the murder, acquitted, re-tried, acquitted, re-tried, acquitted, re-tried, acquitted, re-tried, acquitted, re-tried, acquitted - until she is convicted (at which case, she could appeal her conviction and get another re-trial) or dies of old age. I am italian, and I can tell you it's wrong, a trial in italy is composed in 3 parts judgement n° 1 judgement n°2 and review, an important thing is you are to be presumed innocent untill the review court has not expressed it's definitive innocence or guilt verdict, defendant is to be jailed during trial only if there are strong suspicions at your charge (a different judge will decide about it before the trial) and one of the following there is probable flight danger or the accused will probably destroy important evidence or will probably repeat the crime, it can be more common for a murder charge but it's unusual to be jailed more likely home arrest are ordered, the trial ends only when the third verdict confirm the 2nd judgement, but if one of the judgement are in favor of the defendant there is no more such a strong suspicion on him, so being to be considere as innocent and being misisng one of the reason to justify conviction the accused is released but not fully acquitted. You can't be prosecuted twice it's just we have a different way to build a trial. Said this it works this way after investigation there are strong evidence against you (the law say what to consider strong and what not) prosecutor can order your arrest (in italy prosecutor is a kind of judge) or decide only a notification is needed, at this point your lawyer will defend you in a preliminary trial that judge about the prosecutor decision, if the preliminary judge decide that the evidence respect all the criteria the law requires gives the autorization to go on with the trial or that there are no reason to go on, if he confirm the accuse he has to see what kind of precautionary measure the law impose for that case, it can be giving up your passaport or being obbligated to report in a police station daily, being controlled by social services, home arrested or if needed jailed. Than you are to defend yourself in a first grade of judice, if you are found not guilty you are released and the prosecutor can ask for the 2nd judgment (it's quite uncommon for the prosecutor to do such a thing) if you are found guilty you can ask fo the second judgment (defendant almost always asks for it), during second judgement the trial is repeted and you can take any new evidence you need, 90% of the times 2nd judgement is on the defendant side or with a verdict in his favour or becuse it gives a shorter sentence, mostly because on a second try it's easier to find a reasonable doubt or mitigating reasons, both prosecutor or defendant can ask for a review of the 2nd judgement (it's very very uncommon that the prosecutor asks for such a review the defendant asks quite often) the review court never consider evidence but can decide only if the 2nd judgement respected the laws if it's not orders to repeat 2nd judgemet or to delete part of the verdict (it usually gives a verdict in favour of the defendant most of the time reducing the sentence). It's quite uncommon what happened and it means appeal judges didn't respected all the procedures giving an advantage to the defendant.

tj444 -> RE: Amanda Knox retrial? (3/27/2013 10:57:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh do ya not think tha massive fundraisers to cover her court costs didnt make much difference? tha money shes getting for her "memoir" is massive compared to others http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/jacketcopy/2012/02/amanda-knox-gets-4-million-book-deal.html & pretty insensitive when tha kerchers refused to sue her coz they said no one should make money from tha murder of their daughter. just hope tha book aint like tha lies she & her parents made up bout tha police & other parties http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amanda_Knox#Related_legal_proceedings Yes, I am fully aware she got 4 million as an advance. I have no idea what funds were raised before but I expect much or all went to cover the previous court & defense costs.. this is another new trial with new court costs in addition to those.. plus the family has spent money travelling back and forth and doing whatever they could to help her.. so her lawyer or whoever negotiated a good advance for this book, so what? I expect she will be spending at least a million or even two on this new defence and then even more if years from now there are appeals etc.. Imo, a good chunk of that money is already set aside for those costs.. as far as whatever is left after that.. how easy will it be for her to get a job when she finishes her schooling? I think she will have a hard time of that since so many people want to believe she is the devil and "got away with murder".. there was no dna evidence to show know was involved in the murder so I would say the kerchers would not have won any lawsuit and that is at least one of the reasons they didnt try.. Imo, the kerchers are just as confused about these strange court proccedings & laws as every one else is and while the prosecutors came up with all sorts of wild ideas of what might have gone on, I personally dont believe them one bit and perhaps the kerchers privately wonder if the prosecutors know wtf they are doing.. Imo, the prosecutors bungled the whole thing, supposed evidence was left on the floor etc in the apartment for weeks after the murder instead of handled properly as evidence should be.. I personally dont believe knox or her boyfriend had anything to do with the murder, imo that Guede dude acted alone.. he was the only one that fled and the only one whose dna evidence was all over the girls body, etc.. btw, apparently he could be released from jail as early as 2016..

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