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RE: Amanda Knox retrial? - 3/29/2013 6:41:15 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

so for what I can understand by what you say here, it is slightly different in italy if the appeal judice was "guilty" than the higher court can confirm or reduce conviction or overturn verdict, if the appeal judice was "not guilty" they can confirm or declare a mistrial.
Do you mean prosecution can never appeal to oppose a "not guilty" verdict?

Yes
With what Italy calls overturning equating to a mistrial here that greatly increases the chance of extradition.

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RE: Amanda Knox retrial? - 3/29/2013 6:44:14 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

she had no active part in the murder is way too much.

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Profile Report | Post #: 132


Here overturning a verdict is the same as a not guilty verdict, it is over right then and the defendant is free.
If a higher court declars a mistrial the guilty verdict no longer stands because it is as if the trial never happened and they have to start over again.
The prosecution does not get to appeal period.


That is not necessarily true. The appeals court could overturn a verdict but remand the case back to the lower courts for retrial. The appeal court turning over the lower court's verdict does NOT automatically mean it's over.

Again if it is a procedural thing that state can try to prove the did it right but once the defendant is declared innocent it is over

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RE: Amanda Knox retrial? - 3/29/2013 8:10:05 PM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: YN

The sad part is that due to the investigations failings, her guilt or innocence, will never be established, and further, nobody else can likely be properly tried for the killing either.

As Lafayettelady noted earlier, attempting to retry her and the other accused on what uncontaminated evidence is left will likely by a futile production, and accusing and then trying anyone else for the death would be hopeless. Only the sin of pride likely keeps the case alive at this point.

The losers are the English woman's family and the people of Italy.

Guede has already been tried and found guilty & is sitting in jail serving his sentence, he denied raping and killing the girl but his dna was all over the girl and in her and all over the room, I believe his bloody handprint was on the sheets under her body, etc and of course he also ran and needed to be brought back.. he was originally sentenced to 30 years but appealed and now apparently he might be let out as early as 2016.. I hope they keep him in jail a lot longer than that tho, I would not want him to be free and on the street and able to create more victims..

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RE: Amanda Knox retrial? - 3/29/2013 9:36:22 PM   
LafayetteLady


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From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline 		Defendant's aren't declared innocent. "Not guilty" and "acquitted" are not the same as "innocent."

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RE: Amanda Knox retrial? - 3/29/2013 10:14:12 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

Defendant's aren't declared innocent. "Not guilty" and "acquitted" are not the same as "innocent."

yes, I know that, but once aquitted always aquited.
OJ could hold a news conference tomorrow confess and they couldn't touch him for murder one

< Message edited by BamaD -- 3/29/2013 10:19:54 PM >

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RE: Amanda Knox retrial? - 3/29/2013 10:16:21 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

so for what I can understand by what you say here, it is slightly different in italy if the appeal judice was "guilty" than the higher court can confirm or reduce conviction or overturn verdict, if the appeal judice was "not guilty" they can confirm or declare a mistrial.
Do you mean prosecution can never appeal to oppose a "not guilty" verdict?

Yes
With what Italy calls overturning equating to a mistrial here that greatly increases the chance of extradition.

I am afraid that I wasn't answering the right question. If the defenddant it found not guilty there is no appeal.

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Profile   Post #: 146
RE: Amanda Knox retrial? - 3/29/2013 10:54:20 PM   
LookieNoNookie


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RE: Amanda Knox retrial? - 3/30/2013 2:19:27 AM   
eulero83


Posts: 1470
Joined: 11/4/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

so for what I can understand by what you say here, it is slightly different in italy if the appeal judice was "guilty" than the higher court can confirm or reduce conviction or overturn verdict, if the appeal judice was "not guilty" they can confirm or declare a mistrial.
Do you mean prosecution can never appeal to oppose a "not guilty" verdict?

Yes
With what Italy calls overturning equating to a mistrial here that greatly increases the chance of extradition.

I am afraid that I wasn't answering the right question. If the defenddant it found not guilty there is no appeal.


ok so that's a difference in italy both defendant and prosecutor can appeal and ask a review for appeal always it's a costitutional right, but prosecutor can never appeal if the high court finds not guilty the defendant, and high court can not order conviction so the case it's sent back to appeal court if they overturn a not guilty appeal, anyhow it's unusual that prosecutor goes on after a not guilty judgment, but also consider victim's family has a lawyer on the prosecutor side that can appeal or ask a review.

appeal and review are part of the same trial because if you are not jailed as a precautionary measure even if you are found guilty and you appeal you are not convicted, just consider some politician with a first level sentence for white collar crimes, they runned in election and now are what equates to a congressman in the usa, until their conviction is not confirmed after review they can go on with the office.

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Profile   Post #: 148
RE: Amanda Knox retrial? - 3/30/2013 2:26:17 AM   
eulero83


Posts: 1470
Joined: 11/4/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: YN

The sad part is that due to the investigations failings, her guilt or innocence, will never be established, and further, nobody else can likely be properly tried for the killing either.

As Lafayettelady noted earlier, attempting to retry her and the other accused on what uncontaminated evidence is left will likely by a futile production, and accusing and then trying anyone else for the death would be hopeless. Only the sin of pride likely keeps the case alive at this point.

The losers are the English woman's family and the people of Italy.

Guede has already been tried and found guilty & is sitting in jail serving his sentence, he denied raping and killing the girl but his dna was all over the girl and in her and all over the room, I believe his bloody handprint was on the sheets under her body, etc and of course he also ran and needed to be brought back.. he was originally sentenced to 30 years but appealed and now apparently he might be let out as early as 2016.. I hope they keep him in jail a lot longer than that tho, I would not want him to be free and on the street and able to create more victims..


In italy average jail time for murder is 12 years and he asked for "short ritual trial" that means he has a 30% discount on conviction, yes sure he didn't admit but asking short ritual equates more or less to pleading guilty that is not possible in italy, during trial you always plead innocent.

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Profile   Post #: 149
RE: Amanda Knox retrial? - 3/30/2013 5:24:06 AM   
Hillwilliam


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Status: offline 		Thanks for all the info in Italian court practices eulero.

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RE: Amanda Knox retrial? - 3/30/2013 6:31:41 AM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

yes, I know that, but once aquitted always aquited.
OJ could hold a news conference tomorrow confess and they couldn't touch him for murder one


Laws in the UK were changed for this very reason. Criminals were writing bigraphies gloating about getting away with murder, which didnt go down too well with the locals. Now there can be a new trial ONLY if new evidence comes to light. The evidence is tested in the Supreme court to see if it is indeed admissable.

Those found guilty have always had the same right, so this is just giving that right to the victims and thier families.

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Profile   Post #: 151
RE: Amanda Knox retrial? - 3/30/2013 6:42:48 AM   
ShockTherapy


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Status: offline 		Oh, the prosecutor can't admit when he's wrong (gee, sounds like alotta Dominants I know) .. and he has a certain contempt for Americans.

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Profile   Post #: 152
RE: Amanda Knox retrial? - 3/30/2013 7:02:44 AM   
eulero83


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ShockTherapy
Oh, the prosecutor can't admit when he's wrong (gee, sounds like alotta Dominants I know) .. and he has a certain contempt for Americans.


I understand this could seem odd to you but Italy is not a kind of "bananas republic" where people blame american's imperialism for their problems.

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Profile   Post #: 153
RE: Amanda Knox retrial? - 3/30/2013 7:03:24 AM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83

In italy average jail time for murder is 12 years and he asked for "short ritual trial" that means he has a 30% discount on conviction, yes sure he didn't admit but asking short ritual equates more or less to pleading guilty that is not possible in italy, during trial you always plead innocent.

I see.. I know he had a short trial.. which is also apparently a closed proceeding, no reporters and such so totally private.. but he also appealed (twice?) and got his sentence reduced.. sounds like he got a pretty good deal to me.. (given that all the evidence does point to him killing her & guilty).. If I was the girls family I would be very upset by that.. 12 years seems too short as it is..

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Profile   Post #: 154
RE: Amanda Knox retrial? - 3/30/2013 8:40:59 AM   
eulero83


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Joined: 11/4/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83

In italy average jail time for murder is 12 years and he asked for "short ritual trial" that means he has a 30% discount on conviction, yes sure he didn't admit but asking short ritual equates more or less to pleading guilty that is not possible in italy, during trial you always plead innocent.

I see.. I know he had a short trial.. which is also apparently a closed proceeding, no reporters and such so totally private.. but he also appealed (twice?) and got his sentence reduced.. sounds like he got a pretty good deal to me.. (given that all the evidence does point to him killing her & guilty).. If I was the girls family I would be very upset by that.. 12 years seems too short as it is..


well actually the murder took place in 2007 so to 2016 it's 9 years, I mean that between all the convicted murder in italy average time they spent in jail is 12 years.
it's not a closed proceeding, if you want you can request all documentation, it's just that defendant accept what witness declared as true and there is no need to challenge them in court (90% of time this equates in pleading guilty but judges have to act as you plead innocent), so judges have written depositions, defendant's one included, they have written expert reports from both side, and decide if you are to be acquitted or guilty. As a defendant if in first level judgment you got the maximum conviction you always appeal twice or better you appeal and ask review, as you don't need a reason to have it granted it's your right (as we consider them part of the same trial), if you already had the top conviction can only be reduced.

What happened is that after first level judgment he was condamned to lifetime jail as lifetime is not a number his 1/3 conviction discount for saving judges time and poeple's tax money law prescribe 30 years conviction instead lifetime, during appeal judges decided he was elegible for mitigating reasons, for all kind of crimes there are six of them: high moral or social motivation pushed to commit the crime, rage caused by victim behaviour pushed to commit the crime, offender acted under suggestion of a crowd during a riot, little damages were caused, acting in association but being involved only in hiding culpirt identity, done all the possible to repair damages, but a judge can also decide for general mitigating reasons and this brougt the sentence from lifetime to 24 years (like amanda and raffaele first conviction) so reduced to 16 years for the 1/3 reduction, than actual jail time depends on conduct and can be released on parole before sentenced time, it could be out of jail during day in order to work and come back to jail for the night at first, later can get better if this works out. Anyhow it's true there is no right proportion between how brutal crimes and more common crimes are punished.

< Message edited by eulero83 -- 3/30/2013 8:46:51 AM >

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RE: Amanda Knox retrial? - 3/30/2013 1:38:12 PM   
Powergamz1


Posts: 1927
Joined: 9/3/2011
Status: offline 		They are exactly the same in America. Everyone is innocent unless proven guilty in a court of law... of course Italy don't play that...


quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

Defendant's aren't declared innocent. "Not guilty" and "acquitted" are not the same as "innocent."



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Profile   Post #: 156
RE: Amanda Knox retrial? - 3/30/2013 2:00:00 PM   
eulero83


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

They are exactly the same in America. Everyone is innocent unless proven guilty in a court of law... of course Italy don't play that...


quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

Defendant's aren't declared innocent. "Not guilty" and "acquitted" are not the same as "innocent."




if you want to go on with steretype and prejudice I could tell that more than 2000 years ago while in Italy in court of law, lawyer and judges followed the "affirmanti incumbit probatio" principle, your ancestor were painted in red and blu howling to the moon.

< Message edited by eulero83 -- 3/30/2013 2:01:00 PM >

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RE: Amanda Knox retrial? - 3/30/2013 4:33:39 PM   
YN


Posts: 699
Status: offline 		Roman law is the basis for more of the world's legal systems then any other, the Anglos still use Latin words and principles even in their "common law" system.

If it is a Latin legal word, it usually is or describes a principle borrowed from the laws of Rome.


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RE: Amanda Knox retrial? - 3/30/2013 5:21:45 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: YN

Roman law is the basis for more of the world's legal systems then any other, the Anglos still use Latin words and principles even in their "common law" system.

If it is a Latin legal word, it usually is or describes a principle borrowed from the laws of Rome.




Roman law itself wasnt used in the UK once the Romans left, but some terms and concepts did indeed creep into our "Common law" system. Roman influence, IE Latin, returned to the UK with the Normans after 1066. The Anglo-Saxon laws were the first in Western Europe to be expressed in a language other than Latin.

In Scottish law, Roman law was used as a guide if no existing laws covered the situation. I could be wrong but I think Roman law itself grew from the Etruscans.

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Profile   Post #: 159
RE: Amanda Knox retrial? - 3/30/2013 5:53:24 PM   
eulero83


Posts: 1470
Joined: 11/4/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: YN

Roman law is the basis for more of the world's legal systems then any other, the Anglos still use Latin words and principles even in their "common law" system.

If it is a Latin legal word, it usually is or describes a principle borrowed from the laws of Rome.




not always... as latin was international language during middleage, later it become french and now it's of course english, so for example "habeas corpus" comes from the "magna charta", anywhay "affirmanti incumbit probatio" means that it's accusator's duty to provide proofs, but I didn't mean to go off topic it's just that after 8 pages of posts reading something like in italy civil rights are not guaranteed is annoying

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