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RE: Pugsly of North Korea - 4/2/2013 6:37:45 PM   
YN


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The US is often regarded as the lackey of multinationals and of Europeans hoping to continue their colonial exploitation here.

You would be more highly regarded if you limited your "policing" to actual policing, as opposed to functioning as corporate or European tools, and especially when this activity is not only seen as adverse to the Latin Americas, but as adverse to your own people's interests as well.

Take the events since WW2 and inspect the United States role in each with the following questions in your mind -

Who actually got the United States into the matter?

Who actually profited from the United States activities?

What exactly did the working and middle classes in the United States actual get for their blood and treasure?

In almost every case you will see either a European and/or a multinational CEO staring back at you, usually smiling with a sack of money in his hand.

< Message edited by YN -- 4/2/2013 6:38:35 PM >

(in reply to LookieNoNookie)
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RE: Pugsly of North Korea - 4/2/2013 7:48:57 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

Your cite is quite clear that the russian pressence in korea durring the conflict was both minimal and surreptitious...yet you fail to mention any russian pressence before or after the conflict where as our physical pressence has been pretty much coninuous since what 45?

Then you did not read the site carefully.

Soviet soldiers were instrumental in the creation and early development of the North Korean People's Army and Korean People's Air Force, as well as for stabilizing the early years of the Northern regime. The Shineuiju Air Force Academy under Soviet leadership, under Soviet leadership, on 25 October 1945 in order to train new pilots.[2]

Soviet military aid was instrumental to equipping both North Korean and Chinese armies in Korea. The Soviet PPSh-41 (nicknamed by US forces the "Burp Gun" after the sound it made)[4] was widely supplied to both armies, as was the T-34/85 tank which was of great importance during the first offensive when no US armour or anti-tank rockets could penetrate its armour.[5]

Soviet material aid was also fundamental for the air force. By April 1950, the Soviet Union had provided 63 of the air force's 178 aircraft.


Why weren't the Soviets present after the war? Basically because the Chinese pushed them out.

In effect, Zhang Xiaoming argues that the Chinese came to feel that the Soviet Union was both an unreliable and demanding ally and took greater steps to ensure autarky from the USSR in the years following the War.[9] In 1960, China broke from the Soviet Union in an event known today as the Sino-Soviet Split, creating a rift amongst all communist powers which were expected to pick one side of the divide. This split, certainly influenced by the Korean War shaped relations between the two countries until 1989.

(in reply to thompsonx)
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RE: Pugsly of North Korea - 4/2/2013 8:03:51 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

If I remember my history correctly the russians had to fight some quarter of a million japs for korea and the americans had a walk on.

Surely you jest or you know very little of the Pacific War. The United States had to fight from island to island northward from the Philippines. The Americans had a walk on? That is a most ignorant statement. The Soviets entered the war on 9 August 1945. The Japanese announced their surrender and acceptance of the Potsdam conference conditions on 14August1945. The Americans fought for nearly four years in the Pacific; the Soviets only a few days.

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RE: Pugsly of North Korea - 4/2/2013 8:07:20 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

Not exactly. Korea was not a sovereign nation at the end of WW2. It had no governement. It was occupied by American troops to the south and Soviet troops to the north who entered the Pacific War by agreement with the Western Allies.


By that line of reasoning france,holland,netherlands,italy etc had no government????puullleeezzzzee

I do not understand your non sequetur. Perhaps you can explain it so I can answer.

(in reply to thompsonx)
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RE: Pugsly of North Korea - 4/2/2013 8:11:44 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

quote:

quote:

Which empire ae you speaing of?
The post WW2 Soviet Empire. Stalin began planning his expansion early on in the war. I suggest Stalin's Curse by Robert Gellately as an excellent source

My question remains unanswered.

Only because your mind remains closed. I don't know how I can make it any more clear than explicitly pointing to the Soviet Empire.

(in reply to thompsonx)
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RE: Pugsly of North Korea - 4/2/2013 8:33:15 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

The Soviets were conducting much of their imperialism in Europe and on the surrounding Muslim lands at the time, and the Chinese were still securing China.

From Stettin in the Baltic to Trieste in the Adriatic an iron curtain has descended across the Continent. Behind that line lie all the capitals of the ancient states of Central and Eastern Europe. Warsaw, Berlin, Prague, Vienna, Budapest, Belgrade, Bucharest and Sofia, all these famous cities and the populations around them lie in what I must call the Soviet sphere, and all are subject in one form or another, not only to Soviet influence but to a very high and, in some cases, increasing measure of control from Moscow.

quote:

But you are assuming that I buy your premise that two wrongs make a right.

You are assuming that I am assuming something that I never assumed.

quote:

The Communists and many of the Europeans had been at a cold war since the 1917 revolution, and we could proceed to swap torts back through the 1920's if you like.

Stalin was busy conducting a war within the borders of his own land and nearby nations through the 1930s with agricultural collectives, show trials, and freight transfer of humans to the gulags in the far east. He decimated the command of his armed forces and caused tens of millions to starve, especially in the Ukraine. And let's not forget the nonagression pact he made with Hitler which included the division of Poland.

quote:

However in prior times, the Soviets did not have the military that they ended WW2 with. Unfortunately for them the United States also was far more powerful that it would have been without this war, and took up the challenge, since Europe was too devastated.

Unfortunately for the Soviets that the United States was powerful enough to take up the challenge? Exactly. The challenge was Soviet expansionism. Well tough shit for that most ruthless regime!

(in reply to YN)
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RE: Pugsly of North Korea - 4/3/2013 6:08:18 AM   
Zonie63


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quote:

ORIGINAL: YN

The US is often regarded as the lackey of multinationals and of Europeans hoping to continue their colonial exploitation here.


LOL. To listen to Europeans tell it, they would claim that they're the lackeys and that America exploits them.

But here, you're claiming that the U.S. is the lackey, and that Europeans are the puppet masters. That seems closer to the truth in my mind, considering the direction U.S. policy has taken since World War II.

quote:


You would be more highly regarded if you limited your "policing" to actual policing, as opposed to functioning as corporate or European tools, and especially when this activity is not only seen as adverse to the Latin Americas, but as adverse to your own people's interests as well.


There are some Americans who are concerned with their country's reputation and how America is regarded in the world. There are some Americans who would agree that our government functions as a corporate tool to the detriment of our own people as well as people in other parts of the world. But from what I can see of the foreign lobby here in America, as well as glimpses of the foreign press and opinions from around the world, they still seem to playing the same game as the U.S. government and the major political factions. These foreign critics of America don't seem willing to acknowledge or give moral support to any third party movements to try to change things for the better.

That's why I get somewhat frustrated by America's critics from abroad, since it seems like all they do is sit there and complain, without really wanting to actually do something to help change the situation.

quote:


Take the events since WW2 and inspect the United States role in each with the following questions in your mind -

Who actually got the United States into the matter?


As far as WW2 is concerned, the countries directly responsible for getting the U.S. into the war were those which declared war on us first: Japan, and then a few days later, Germany and Italy. We didn't attack or declare war first; they did.

Regarding events since WW2, they were pretty much an outgrowth of consequences as a result of that war. The European nations were weakened and losing their empires, while the U.S. was concerned with the Soviet Union and the potential loss of Western hegemony in the world. The U.S. government was acting more as an "Ally" and not strictly pro-American (or even pro-democracy).

But all of this was done with the apparent assent of the American people. The people made their choice at the polls, and they supported those politicians who formulated America's foreign policies. Many Americans were scared and felt they were in danger during the Cold War, so they supported the politicians whom they felt would best protect them and their interests. Foreign policy itself became a much more important issue in the eyes of Americans, often diverting their attention away from domestic policies. While we may have been somewhat neutral and isolationist in the past, Americans were openly convinced that they had to support a different course from now on. There's this belief that "if only we had acted sooner," then we might have prevented the massive devastation and loss of life in World War II.

Americans didn't really see themselves or their government as a "tool," or at least, it just didn't seem that obvious at the time. It was a new situation for them, with the advent of the Cold War and nuclear weapons, and they probably didn't really know what to make of it. So, they trusted the politicians, our foreign policy experts, our military leaders...they figured they knew what was best for America's survival and national interests. Our survival was linked to the survival of other Western powers.

quote:


Who actually profited from the United States activities?


Quite a few people, I'm sure, both within the United States and outside of the United States.

quote:


What exactly did the working and middle classes in the United States actual get for their blood and treasure?


A lot of working and middle class Americans did actually do pretty well, compared to previous generations of Americans. There was a huge post-war boom which improved the standard of living all across America during the 1950s and 60s. But it was apparently only a short-term windfall, as things started to go sour in the 1970s. While we should have buckled down and dealt with the situation back then, the voters instead opted to enter the supply-side economists' opium den, where the mantra was "Don't worry, be happy."

Now, they're worried about their pensions and wondering where all the money went.

quote:

In almost every case you will see either a European and/or a multinational CEO staring back at you, usually smiling with a sack of money in his hand.


Oh, there are plenty of Americans with sacks of money, too. Actually, if you go to any country, even some of the poorest in the world, you'll probably find at least few people with sacks of money. Some of those Latin American dictators and generals seemed to squirrel away some rather tidy nest eggs. A lot of new billionaires coming out of China and Russia these days. I see a lot of wealthy people from all over the world, so it seems like the wealth is getting spread around the world to some degree.





(in reply to YN)
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RE: Pugsly of North Korea - 4/3/2013 7:10:24 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

You would be more highly regarded if you limited your "policing" to actual policing, as opposed to functioning as corporate or European tools, and especially when this activity is not only seen as adverse to the Latin Americas, but as adverse to your own people's interests as well.

What does that mean: actual policing?

quote:

In almost every case you will see either a European and/or a multinational CEO staring back at you, usually smiling with a sack of money in his hand.

Empty, stereotypical, thoughtless, bumper sticker rhetoric expressing a simplistic view of a complex world made of many nationalistic agenda at cross currents with each other.

(in reply to YN)
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RE: Pugsly of North Korea - 4/3/2013 8:44:37 AM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

Your cite is quite clear that the russian pressence in korea durring the conflict was both minimal and surreptitious...yet you fail to mention any russian pressence before or after the conflict where as our physical pressence has been pretty much coninuous since what 45?

quote:

Then you did not read the site carefully.


Your cite is quite clear abot the quantity,quality and the timing of the soviet involvement in korea.
Perhaps you might compare the actual numbers


Soviet soldiers were instrumental in the creation and early development of the North Korean People's Army and Korean People's Air Force, as well as for stabilizing the early years of the Northern regime. The Shineuiju Air Force Academy under Soviet leadership, under Soviet leadership, on 25 October 1945 in order to train new pilots.[2]

Soviet military aid was instrumental to equipping both North Korean and Chinese armies in Korea. The Soviet PPSh-41 (nicknamed by US forces the "Burp Gun" after the sound it made)[4] was widely supplied to both armies, as was the T-34/85 tank which was of great importance during the first offensive when no US armour or anti-tank rockets could penetrate its armour.[5]

Soviet material aid was also fundamental for the air force. By April 1950, the Soviet Union had provided 63 of the air force's 178 aircraft.


Why weren't the Soviets present after the war? Basically because the Chinese pushed them out.

yeah right...russia is such a pussy

In effect, Zhang Xiaoming argues that the Chinese came to feel that the Soviet Union was both an unreliable and demanding ally and took greater steps to ensure autarky from the USSR in the years following the War.[9] In 1960, China broke from the Soviet Union in an event known today as the Sino-Soviet Split, creating a rift amongst all communist powers which were expected to pick one side of the divide. This split, certainly influenced by the Korean War shaped relations between the two countries until 1989.



(in reply to vincentML)
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RE: Pugsly of North Korea - 4/3/2013 8:50:11 AM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

If I remember my history correctly the russians had to fight some quarter of a million japs for korea and the americans had a walk on.

Surely you jest or you know very little of the Pacific War. The United States had to fight from island to island northward from the Philippines.

Perhaps yu might want to consult the order of battle concerning the russian involvement with japan.
The japs had about 1.5 million men the russians about the same.The russians created a pincer movement that encompased an area roughly the size of western europe. The japs lost about a quarter of a million men in that battle. Where durring the whole pacific war did the u.s. military face opposition of that magnitude?





quote:

The Americans had a walk on?


How many u.s. casualities durring the korean occupation in 45?

quote:

That is a most ignorant statement. The Soviets entered the war on 9 August 1945. The Japanese announced their surrender and acceptance of the Potsdam conference conditions on 14August1945. The Americans fought for nearly four years in the Pacific; the Soviets only a few days.

In those few days they killed about a quarter of a million japs and took about three quarters of a million prisoners. How does the body count stack up?

< Message edited by thompsonx -- 4/3/2013 9:03:58 AM >

(in reply to vincentML)
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RE: Pugsly of North Korea - 4/3/2013 8:58:12 AM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

quote:

quote:

Which empire ae you speaing of?
The post WW2 Soviet Empire. Stalin began planning his expansion early on in the war. I suggest Stalin's Curse by Robert Gellately as an excellent source

My question remains unanswered.

Only because your mind remains closed. I don't know how I can make it any more clear than explicitly pointing to the Soviet Empire.

Perhaps you might start by actually naming those countries that are in the soviet empire?

(in reply to vincentML)
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RE: Pugsly of North Korea - 4/3/2013 9:00:07 AM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

Not exactly. Korea was not a sovereign nation at the end of WW2. It had no governement. It was occupied by American troops to the south and Soviet troops to the north who entered the Pacific War by agreement with the Western Allies.


By that line of reasoning france,holland,netherlands,italy etc had no government????puullleeezzzzee

I do not understand your non sequetur. Perhaps you can explain it so I can answer.

If korea was,as you contend,was not a soverign nation because it had no government how then was france a soverign nation or holland or any other nation that the nazis took over?

(in reply to vincentML)
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RE: Pugsly of North Korea - 4/3/2013 10:05:28 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

If korea was,as you contend,was not a soverign nation because it had no government how then was france a soverign nation or holland or any other nation that the nazis took over?

Declared an Imperial Japanese protectorate in 1905 (Japan–Korea Treaty of 1905), and officially annexed in 1910 (Japan-Korea Annexation Treaty), the Empire of Japan brought to a close the Joseon Dynasty, [SNIP]

Administration of the Korean people continued until Japan's defeat at the end of World War II at which time Korea became an independent nation albeit divided under two separate governments and economic systems. [SNIP]

American forces under General John R. Hodge arrived at the southern part of Korean peninsula on 8 September 1945, while the Soviet Army and some Korean Communists had stationed themselves in the northern part of the Korean peninsula. U.S. Colonel Dean Rusk proposed to Chischakov, the Soviet military administrator of northern Korea, that Korea should be split at the 38th parallel. This proposal was made at an emergency meeting to determine postwar spheres of influence, which led to the Division of Korea.

WIKI

Whereas, the nations occupied by the Germans retained sovereignty of sorts under various forms of Quisling governments.

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RE: Pugsly of North Korea - 4/3/2013 10:09:02 AM   
vincentML


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Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

quote:

quote:

Which empire ae you speaing of?
The post WW2 Soviet Empire. Stalin began planning his expansion early on in the war. I suggest Stalin's Curse by Robert Gellately as an excellent source

My question remains unanswered.

Only because your mind remains closed. I don't know how I can make it any more clear than explicitly pointing to the Soviet Empire.

Perhaps you might start by actually naming those countries that are in the soviet empire?

They WERE in the Soviet Empire. Lest you failed to notice the Empire has fallen. For starters list all the ~stans that were in the Soviet sphere and then run through Churchill's iron curtain speech.

Are you really that ignorant of Soviet history or are you just baiting me?

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Pugsly of North Korea - 4/3/2013 10:15:57 AM   
vincentML


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Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

Perhaps yu might want to consult the order of battle concerning the russian involvement with japan.
The japs had about 1.5 million men the russians about the same.The russians created a pincer movement that encompased an area roughly the size of western europe. The japs lost about a quarter of a million men in that battle. Where durring the whole pacific war did the u.s. military face opposition of that magnitude?

This battle did not take place on the Korean peninsula. And lasted at best but a few weeks. Soviet losses were minimal compared to Allied losses in the Pacific over four years.

The Soviets lost 9726 KIA or MIA.
Japanese lost 83737 KIA or MIA

The United States lost 111,606 KIA or MIA in the Pacific War.

You are really ill-informed.

< Message edited by vincentML -- 4/3/2013 10:25:48 AM >

(in reply to thompsonx)
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RE: Pugsly of North Korea - 4/3/2013 10:18:13 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

If korea was,as you contend,was not a soverign nation because it had no government how then was france a soverign nation or holland or any other nation that the nazis took over?

Declared an Imperial Japanese protectorate in 1905 (Japan–Korea Treaty of 1905), and officially annexed in 1910 (Japan-Korea Annexation Treaty), the Empire of Japan brought to a close the Joseon Dynasty, [SNIP]

Administration of the Korean people continued until Japan's defeat at the end of World War II at which time Korea became an independent nation albeit divided under two separate governments and economic systems. [SNIP]

American forces under General John R. Hodge arrived at the southern part of Korean peninsula on 8 September 1945, while the Soviet Army and some Korean Communists had stationed themselves in the northern part of the Korean peninsula. U.S. Colonel Dean Rusk proposed to Chischakov, the Soviet military administrator of northern Korea, that Korea should be split at the 38th parallel. This proposal was made at an emergency meeting to determine postwar spheres of influence, which led to the Division of Korea.

WIKI

Whereas, the nations occupied by the Germans retained sovereignty of sorts under various forms of Quisling governments.


(in reply to vincentML)
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RE: Pugsly of North Korea - 4/3/2013 10:26:20 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

quote:

quote:

Which empire ae you speaing of?
The post WW2 Soviet Empire. Stalin began planning his expansion early on in the war. I suggest Stalin's Curse by Robert Gellately as an excellent source

My question remains unanswered.

Only because your mind remains closed. I don't know how I can make it any more clear than explicitly pointing to the Soviet Empire.

Perhaps you might start by actually naming those countries that are in the soviet empire?

They WERE in the Soviet Empire. Lest you failed to notice the Empire has fallen.
quote:



You were the one who used the phrase "soviet empire" whether the empire has fallen or not that is what you were discussing

quote:

For starters list all the ~stans that were in the Soviet sphere and then run through Churchill's iron curtain speech.


Which part of the "stans" were not part of the russian empire which was replaced by the soviet union.

quote:

Are you really that ignorant of Soviet history or are you just baiting me?

So far you seem to be the one who is ignorant of russian history.

(in reply to vincentML)
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RE: Pugsly of North Korea - 4/3/2013 10:28:30 AM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

If korea was,as you contend,was not a soverign nation because it had no government how then was france a soverign nation or holland or any other nation that the nazis took over?

Declared an Imperial Japanese protectorate in 1905 (Japan–Korea Treaty of 1905), and officially annexed in 1910 (Japan-Korea Annexation Treaty), the Empire of Japan brought to a close the Joseon Dynasty, [SNIP]

Administration of the Korean people continued until Japan's defeat at the end of World War II at which time Korea became an independent nation albeit divided under two separate governments and economic systems. [SNIP]

American forces under General John R. Hodge arrived at the southern part of Korean peninsula on 8 September 1945, while the Soviet Army and some Korean Communists had stationed themselves in the northern part of the Korean peninsula. U.S. Colonel Dean Rusk proposed to Chischakov, the Soviet military administrator of northern Korea, that Korea should be split at the 38th parallel. This proposal was made at an emergency meeting to determine postwar spheres of influence, which led to the Division of Korea.

WIKI

Whereas, the nations occupied by the Germans retained sovereignty of sorts under various forms of Quisling governments.




You have no answer. Too bad. You are terribly disappointing as an interlocutor. In other words just a pain in the ass waste of my time.

We're done here.

Adios

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Pugsly of North Korea - 4/3/2013 10:33:30 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

Perhaps yu might want to consult the order of battle concerning the russian involvement with japan.
The japs had about 1.5 million men the russians about the same.The russians created a pincer movement that encompased an area roughly the size of western europe. The japs lost about a quarter of a million men in that battle. Where durring the whole pacific war did the u.s. military face opposition of that magnitude?

This battle did not take place on the Korean peninsula. And lasted at best but a few weeks. Soviet losses were minimal compared to Allied losses in the Pacific over four years.

Bigger battle,more combatants,more body bags,what's your issue?

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Pugsly of North Korea - 4/3/2013 10:36:47 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

If korea was,as you contend,was not a soverign nation because it had no government how then was france a soverign nation or holland or any other nation that the nazis took over?

Declared an Imperial Japanese protectorate in 1905 (Japan–Korea Treaty of 1905), and officially annexed in 1910 (Japan-Korea Annexation Treaty), the Empire of Japan brought to a close the Joseon Dynasty, [SNIP]

Administration of the Korean people continued until Japan's defeat at the end of World War II at which time Korea became an independent nation albeit divided under two separate governments and economic systems. [SNIP]

American forces under General John R. Hodge arrived at the southern part of Korean peninsula on 8 September 1945, while the Soviet Army and some Korean Communists had stationed themselves in the northern part of the Korean peninsula. U.S. Colonel Dean Rusk proposed to Chischakov, the Soviet military administrator of northern Korea, that Korea should be split at the 38th parallel. This proposal was made at an emergency meeting to determine postwar spheres of influence, which led to the Division of Korea.

WIKI

Whereas, the nations occupied by the Germans retained sovereignty of sorts under various forms of Quisling governments.




You have no answer. Too bad. You are terribly disappointing as an interlocutor. In other words just a pain in the ass waste of my time.

We're done here.

Adios


(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 80
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