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[Poll]

Does being religious mean that you are:


More moral than the non-religious
  13% (8)
As moral as the non-religious
  36% (22)
Less moral than the non-religious
  18% (11)
chose none of the above as I refuse to voice an opinion yet still vote
  31% (19)


Total Votes : 60
(last vote on : 5/14/2014 8:05:37 PM)
(Poll will run till: -- )
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RE: Does being religious mean that you are: - 4/5/2013 9:22:14 PM   
njlauren


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Paladinagain

If you believe in nothing you will fall for anything.
If you have morals you must make judgments.
I have a right and duty to shun homosexuals and lesbians as immoral people leading a lesser and damaging lifestyle.
Having no standards is not conducive to having morals and one MUST choose their standards and live by the consequences.
If history has taught us anything , it is that man cannot govern himself and that most of the people are wrong most of the time.

What the hell are you doing on Collarme then? I hope you realize that according to the 'morals' of your faith, this board and all on it are abominations, since sex according to the dear old bible is for making babies, Paul thought sex was so disgusting that he wrote a whole screed about how foul and vile it was (he basically said you shouldn't have sex or get married, and only get married if you have such a case of blue balls you can't stand it). I don't think BD/SM would stand up to your code of morality.

BTW, the bible does not say it is your job to shun gays, anymore than it says to shun anyone else who sins. I suggest you read the line about making fun of the mote in your neighbor's eye when you have a log i yours.

(in reply to Paladinagain)
Profile   Post #: 181
RE: Does being religious mean that you are: - 4/5/2013 9:31:23 PM   
Powergamz1


Posts: 1927
Joined: 9/3/2011
Status: offline 		Sense, and behavior are not synonyms.

A sense of fairness/unfairness would be crying when given a smaller share of something.

An innate moral behavior would be climbing out of the high chair and making sure that every baby in the nursery had identical shares.

None of the research cited makes, much less supports the claim that humans are hardwired to instinctively conduct themselves in the latter ( moral as in fair righteous, etc.) manner.





quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Fairness is not morality it is at most ethics.

The sense of fairness observed in studies of pre-verbal human infants is classed as moral behavior. Not a single researcher anywhere attributes it to the baby's "ethics".

K.



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Profile   Post #: 182
RE: Does being religious mean that you are: - 4/5/2013 9:31:54 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: njlauren

BTW, the bible does not say it is your job to shun gays

It sure doesn't. I think it calls for stoning them or something...

K.

(in reply to njlauren)
Profile   Post #: 183
RE: Does being religious mean that you are: - 4/5/2013 9:47:45 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

Sense, and behavior are not synonyms.

A sense of fairness/unfairness would be crying when given a smaller share of something.

An innate moral behavior would be climbing out of the high chair and making sure that every baby in the nursery had identical shares.

None of the research cited makes, much less supports the claim that humans are hardwired to instinctively conduct themselves in the latter ( moral as in fair righteous, etc.) manner.

No behavior observed in the studies. Check. No evidence of hardwiring/structure in the brain. Check. Well damn! Your discovery of fraud on such a scale is a fucking scientific bombshell. This has to be reported. Have you told anybody else?

K.

(in reply to Powergamz1)
Profile   Post #: 184
RE: Does being religious mean that you are: - 4/6/2013 5:11:41 AM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

FR

Recently received but haven't had a chance to read a pertinent new book that sounds fascinating.

The Bonobo and the Atheist: In Search of Humanism Among the Primates



Yep. It does look fascinating. There's a general idea in there, by the looks of it, that's been kicking around for quite a while. Myself, I've come to the conclusion that the most basic 'moral sense' of all is articulated by the line 'do to others as you'd have them do to you' and that basic sense is at least prevalent - and perhaps near-universal - in humans plus some other species. My little hypothesis is that it's to do with empathy and this grows quite naturally with maturation. A baby learns first that its body is part of it; later it learns that its mother is in some way part of it; later still, that all humans are in some way part of itself. I wince when I see someone else hurt because of that empathetic sense. It's as though I'm being hurt because that person being hurt is a part of me.

But, but . . . I say 'nearly universal' because, as we all know, there's also the selfish sense - which involves the ability to 'cut oneself off' from others.

Work in progress in my head. But I feel pretty confident about that hypothesis - put it that way.

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Profile   Post #: 185
RE: Does being religious mean that you are: - 4/6/2013 6:22:21 AM   
MstSebastian


Posts: 169
Joined: 3/19/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

There's a fair amount of research out there, both with infants and animals, and obviously I don't have every study at my fingertips. But here are a couple of links:

Babies Know What's Fair
Sense of Justice Built Into the Brain

K.[/font][/size]

So, now what about these means that there is a universal morality? What makes a sense of justice or fairness an indicator of this universal morality?

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(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 186
RE: Does being religious mean that you are: - 4/6/2013 6:27:22 AM   
Powergamz1


Posts: 1927
Joined: 9/3/2011
Status: offline 		Getting a little desperate there? You should be content with your 'victory' of calling the dictionary and encyclopedia 'faux' definitions.

BTW, how do you square this assertion of innate morality with an utter lack of integrity while claiming to be one of the 'moral' ones? Or are you going to pretend that never happens either?


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

Sense, and behavior are not synonyms.

A sense of fairness/unfairness would be crying when given a smaller share of something.

An innate moral behavior would be climbing out of the high chair and making sure that every baby in the nursery had identical shares.

None of the research cited makes, much less supports the claim that humans are hardwired to instinctively conduct themselves in the latter ( moral as in fair righteous, etc.) manner.

No behavior observed in the studies. Check. No evidence of hardwiring/structure in the brain. Check. Well damn! Your discovery of fraud on such a scale is a fucking scientific bombshell. This has to be reported. Have you told anybody else?

K.



< Message edited by Powergamz1 -- 4/6/2013 6:30:01 AM >

_____________________________

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" About damn time...wooot!!' Me

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Profile   Post #: 187
RE: Does being religious mean that you are: - 4/6/2013 12:17:49 PM   
fucktoyprincess


Posts: 2337
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

FR

Recently received but haven't had a chance to read a pertinent new book that sounds fascinating.

The Bonobo and the Atheist: In Search of Humanism Among the Primates



Yep. It does look fascinating. There's a general idea in there, by the looks of it, that's been kicking around for quite a while. Myself, I've come to the conclusion that the most basic 'moral sense' of all is articulated by the line 'do to others as you'd have them do to you' and that basic sense is at least prevalent - and perhaps near-universal - in humans plus some other species. My little hypothesis is that it's to do with empathy and this grows quite naturally with maturation. A baby learns first that its body is part of it; later it learns that its mother is in some way part of it; later still, that all humans are in some way part of itself. I wince when I see someone else hurt because of that empathetic sense. It's as though I'm being hurt because that person being hurt is a part of me.

But, but . . . I say 'nearly universal' because, as we all know, there's also the selfish sense - which involves the ability to 'cut oneself off' from others.

Work in progress in my head. But I feel pretty confident about that hypothesis - put it that way.


I agree with your hypothesis, and would just add that normal development requires the development of empathy in a human being. A person who lacks sufficient empathy is considered abnormal from a psychological perspective. Many psychological disorders have lack of empathy as a diagnostic symptom. So anyone whose selfish side determines their behavior in all scenarios....well, they aren't a properly developed normal human being. And we wouldn't expect such a person to be capable of morality...or only capable of moral behavior under duress, or through tremendous intellectual effort that overrides their base instincts.

Interestingly, in my life, I have found that often deeply religious people are also quite selfish relative to the non-religious people I know. Is religion then a way to simply counteract the selfishness that exists in people who have underdeveloped empathy?


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Profile   Post #: 188
RE: Does being religious mean that you are: - 4/6/2013 2:26:40 PM   
Focus50


Posts: 3962
Joined: 12/28/2004
From: Newcastle, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

Myself, I've come to the conclusion that the most basic 'moral sense' of all is articulated by the line 'do to others as you'd have them do to you' and that basic sense is at least prevalent - and perhaps near-universal - in humans plus some other species.


Whoa, let's not lose all perspective of where we are...!

In my D/s, I do unto the other and she get's done. That's it...!

Focus.

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(in reply to PeonForHer)
Profile   Post #: 189
RE: Does being religious mean that you are: - 4/6/2013 2:30:28 PM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline 		Is that a weal and twue moral judgement, then?

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Profile   Post #: 190
RE: Does being religious mean that you are: - 4/6/2013 2:56:15 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

FR

Recently received but haven't had a chance to read a pertinent new book that sounds fascinating.

The Bonobo and the Atheist: In Search of Humanism Among the Primates



Yep. It does look fascinating. There's a general idea in there, by the looks of it, that's been kicking around for quite a while. Myself, I've come to the conclusion that the most basic 'moral sense' of all is articulated by the line 'do to others as you'd have them do to you' and that basic sense is at least prevalent - and perhaps near-universal - in humans plus some other species. My little hypothesis is that it's to do with empathy and this grows quite naturally with maturation. A baby learns first that its body is part of it; later it learns that its mother is in some way part of it; later still, that all humans are in some way part of itself. I wince when I see someone else hurt because of that empathetic sense. It's as though I'm being hurt because that person being hurt is a part of me.

But, but . . . I say 'nearly universal' because, as we all know, there's also the selfish sense - which involves the ability to 'cut oneself off' from others.

Work in progress in my head. But I feel pretty confident about that hypothesis - put it that way.

The thing is, and why I'm skeptical of this book, we are actually slightly more closely related to Pan troglodytes than to Pan paniscus, which is thought to be a fairly recent offshoot of P troglodytes. While the bonobo is very lpeaceful, and incredily sexual, the common chimpanzee is very violent both intra and inter community.

(in reply to PeonForHer)
Profile   Post #: 191
RE: Does being religious mean that you are: - 4/6/2013 3:08:51 PM   
PeonForHer


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Joined: 9/27/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess
Is religion then a way to simply counteract the selfishness that exists in people who have underdeveloped empathy?


That's one of its purposes, I'd say. Although, it's historically also often served to justify selfishness.


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Profile   Post #: 192
RE: Does being religious mean that you are: - 4/6/2013 3:30:02 PM   
Focus50


Posts: 3962
Joined: 12/28/2004
From: Newcastle, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

Is that a weal and twue moral judgement, then?


Just a bit of humour - something I concede is not usually associated with religion.

<I will now consider myself appropriately admonished>

Focus.

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Profile   Post #: 193
RE: Does being religious mean that you are: - 4/6/2013 5:40:43 PM   
Powergamz1


Posts: 1927
Joined: 9/3/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

I agree with your hypothesis, and would just add that normal development requires the development of empathy in a human being. A person who lacks sufficient empathy is considered abnormal from a psychological perspective. Many psychological disorders have lack of empathy as a diagnostic symptom. So anyone whose selfish side determines their behavior in all scenarios....well, they aren't a properly developed normal human being. And we wouldn't expect such a person to be capable of morality...or only capable of moral behavior under duress, or through tremendous intellectual effort that overrides their base instincts.

Interestingly, in my life, I have found that often deeply religious people are also quite selfish relative to the non-religious people I know. Is religion then a way to simply counteract the selfishness that exists in people who have underdeveloped empathy?



I think you are very close. There is a little thing called the instinct for self preservation that is a facet of your above "whose selfish side determines their behavior in all scenarios....".

Self preservation serves the individual, overriding self preservation serves the group (noble sacrifices, accepting one's station, not challenging authority, silence about hypocrisy, swallowing the Kool
Aid, and so on... conformity).

This creates a tension between the person and society that factors into many social artifacts like religion and politics.

In other words, if there did not already exist a mechanism for guilting or otherwise pressuring people into being 'good little workers/students/soldiers/wives and so forth, it would be necessary to invent one.


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Profile   Post #: 194
RE: Does being religious mean that you are: - 4/6/2013 7:23:57 PM   
cordeliasub


Posts: 528
Joined: 11/4/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess
Is religion then a way to simply counteract the selfishness that exists in people who have underdeveloped empathy?


That's one of its purposes, I'd say. Although, it's historically also often served to justify selfishness.



I wonder sometimes if religion is....what you make it. Religion has been used to justify terrible atrocities. It's been used to persecute others, judge others, and wave horrible signs at military funerals and scream at poor scared young girls as they walk into abortion clinics. Sadly, lots of crappy stuff has been done in the name of religion.

But I think there are times when certain aspects of faith can bring about good in people, can comfort, can motivate people to think of others. Can all these things happen without religion? Of course. But I think it boils down to the individual. A person without empathy or with an overdeveloped sense of narcissism or who was just....an obnoxious asshat would probably be that way regardless. They might blame it on religion, not being hugged enough by mommy, claiming to be smarter than everyone they know.....any number of reasons.

I'll admit, the older I get, the harder time I have reconciling "Love your neighbor as yourself" with some of the things I see Christians do.

(in reply to PeonForHer)
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RE: Does being religious mean that you are: - 4/6/2013 7:41:33 PM   
littlewonder


Posts: 15659
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quote:

How many suicide bombers could you recruit without the promise of the future?


Apparently lots according to the Japanese. They didn't become bombers out of a promise of the future or religious reasons. They did so to show their loyalty to their emperor and to not disgrace their families.



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RE: Does being religious mean that you are: - 4/6/2013 7:56:21 PM   
fucktoyprincess


Posts: 2337
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

quote:

How many suicide bombers could you recruit without the promise of the future?


Apparently lots according to the Japanese. They didn't become bombers out of a promise of the future or religious reasons. They did so to show their loyalty to their emperor and to not disgrace their families.




I think that loyalty to the Emperor was part of the Shinto religion at that time. Following excerpt is from Wiki if one can believe this description.

"In 1944–45, the Japanese were heavily influenced by Shinto beliefs. Among other things, Emperor worship was stressed after Shinto was established as a state religion during the Meiji Restoration. As time went on, Shinto was used increasingly in the promotion of nationalist sentiment. In 1890, the Imperial Rescript on Education was passed, under which students were required to ritually recite its oath to offer themselves "courageously to the State" as well as protect the Imperial family. The ultimate offering was to give up one’s life. It was an honour to die for Japan and the Emperor. Axell and Kase pointed out: "The fact is that innumerable soldiers, sailors and pilots were determined to die, to become eirei, that is ‘guardian spirits’ of the country. [...] Many Japanese felt that to be enshrined at Yasukuni was a special honour because the Emperor twice a year visited the shrine to pay homage. Yasukuni is the only shrine, deifying common men, which the Emperor would visit to pay his respects".[32] Young Japanese people were indoctrinated from an earliest age with these ideals."

More at kamikaze

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RE: Does being religious mean that you are: - 4/6/2013 7:57:04 PM   
DaddySatyr


Posts: 9381
Joined: 8/29/2011
From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

quote:

How many suicide bombers could you recruit without the promise of the future?


Apparently lots according to the Japanese. They didn't become bombers out of a promise of the future or religious reasons. They did so to show their loyalty to their emperor and to not disgrace their families.




The Japanese viewed Hirohito (or however his name was spelled) as a "god" in that he was the head of the Shinto religion as well as being the emperor. They "worshipped" him so that example is a bit "muddy", at the very least.



Peace and comfort,



Michael

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Profile   Post #: 198
RE: Does being religious mean that you are: - 4/6/2013 7:58:52 PM   
Powergamz1


Posts: 1927
Joined: 9/3/2011
Status: offline 		To their *Divine* Emperor.

quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

quote:

How many suicide bombers could you recruit without the promise of the future?


Apparently lots according to the Japanese. They didn't become bombers out of a promise of the future or religious reasons. They did so to show their loyalty to their emperor and to not disgrace their families.





_____________________________

"DOMA is unconstitutional as a deprivation of the equal liberty of persons that is protected by the Fifth Amendment" Anthony McLeod Kennedy

" About damn time...wooot!!' Me

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Profile   Post #: 199
RE: Does being religious mean that you are: - 4/6/2013 8:04:05 PM   
fucktoyprincess


Posts: 2337
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

In other words, if there did not already exist a mechanism for guilting or otherwise pressuring people into being 'good little workers/students/soldiers/wives and so forth, it would be necessary to invent one.



Yes, I think this idea is where Marx's term "opium of the masses" comes from. And it simply begs the question of whether someone who has a highly developed sense of duty, responsibility and empathy needs religion at all.

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Profile   Post #: 200
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