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[Poll]

Does being religious mean that you are:

More moral than the non-religious

13% (8)

As moral as the non-religious

36% (22)

Less moral than the non-religious

18% (11)

chose none of the above as I refuse to voice an opinion yet still vote

31% (19)

Total Votes : 60

(last vote on : 5/14/2014 8:05:37 PM)
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RE: Does being religious mean that you are: - 4/4/2013 7:19:29 AM

Yachtie

Posts: 3593
Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FunCouple5280

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie

quote:

ORIGINAL: FunCouple5280

It could be the compass' fault if it is vague, contradictory, or creates unreasonable expectations.

Rhetorically argumentative.

The compass still IS. That you cannot argue with.

Therefore it can also be wrong

If one ascribes the rules to an Almighty (religion based)...

His game, His rules. I'm not one to argue with the Almighty.

_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to FunCouple5280)

Post #: 81

RE: Does being religious mean that you are: - 4/4/2013 7:22:36 AM

FunCouple5280

Posts: 559
Joined: 10/30/2012
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There, you admit the compass can be wrong. I applaud you.

The whole point of this is if you are really moral you have to be a free thinker. Even if you use a compass to point you in a direction you must verify and make sure it is not a false positive. If you prescribe blindly to faith you can be mislead.

Trust but verify

(in reply to Yachtie)

Post #: 82

RE: Does being religious mean that you are: - 4/4/2013 7:29:13 AM

freedomdwarf1

Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: FunCouple5280
Really, explain why an atheist doesn't try and legalize murder in a democratic society. Explain how one could argue that murder in general would be considered a moral act? I am not talking about weird circumstances or exclusions like self-defense. I am talking about walking up and killing a random stranger..... Make a solid argument for that and I will eat my shoe.

Think before you go out advocating murder...

I don't advocate murder and never will.

The laws of the land were made by people we trust (at the time) to make such laws and they expect all reasonable humans within the jurisdiction to keep within those laws.

I see no logical reason why an atheist (or anyone else for that matter) would want to make murder allowable in law.
And I can't for the life of me think of any reason why it should be considered a 'moral' act.
It's like arguing a double-negative. It's absurd.
So try to explain to me, how or why you should pose such an idiotic question and pick a particular type of non-believer to be the target of such ubtuseness??

Why suggest something sooo incomprehensible as part of your argument??
It just doesn't make any sense. at all.

(in reply to FunCouple5280)

Post #: 83

RE: Does being religious mean that you are: - 4/4/2013 7:53:27 AM

chatterbox24

Posts: 2182
Joined: 1/22/2012
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Is murder right?

Depends on the murder.

Is it right to murder someone who murders people who kill innocent children? Is it right to kill someone who makes it their life goal to destroy others for the hell of it, torture them to death? Etc etc. I say give that murderer a badge. SOunds like Robin hood with a different mission to me.

And the person who they are wanting to murder, the death sentence. What good are they in society? BUt is it our right to kill them? maybe. maybe not.

Is being gay an abomination To GOd? Says so, but so is smoking. So is lying, so is alot of things. Are we suppose to hate people cause they are different? DO we have to agree with them? Should we be prejudice to them?No and No and No. Just my opinion though.
Everyone on this earth has a sin they battle with everyday. And some sins are considered larger then others by society. BUt sin is sin. Period. If you believe in God, he sees them all the same, none smaller or larger. He is interested in how its handled by us in our learning process in life. Whether we act on it, continue to act on it, or fight it.

< Message edited by chatterbox24 -- 4/4/2013 7:56:10 AM >

_____________________________

I am like a box of chocolates, you never know what variety you are going to get on any given day.

My crazy smells like jasmine, cloves and cat nip.

(in reply to FunCouple5280)

Post #: 84

RE: Does being religious mean that you are: - 4/4/2013 8:19:46 AM

Yachtie

Posts: 3593
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: FunCouple5280

There, you admit the compass can be wrong. I applaud you.

The whole point of this is if you are really moral you have to be a free thinker. Even if you use a compass to point you in a direction you must verify and make sure it is not a false positive. If you prescribe blindly to faith you can be mislead.

Trust but verify

That's one of the most laughable things I have seen written here.

Truly, you are not tall enough for this ride.

_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to FunCouple5280)

Post #: 85

RE: Does being religious mean that you are: - 4/4/2013 8:36:52 AM

Paladinagain

Posts: 23
Joined: 11/14/2011
Status: offline

If you believe in nothing you will fall for anything.
If you have morals you must make judgments.
I have a right and duty to shun homosexuals and lesbians as immoral people leading a lesser and damaging lifestyle.
Having no standards is not conducive to having morals and one MUST choose their standards and live by the consequences.
If history has taught us anything , it is that man cannot govern himself and that most of the people are wrong most of the time.

(in reply to Yachtie)

Post #: 86

RE: Does being religious mean that you are: - 4/4/2013 9:00:56 AM

chatterbox24

Posts: 2182
Joined: 1/22/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Paladinagain

If you believe in nothing you will fall for anything.
If you have morals you must make judgments.
I have a right and duty to shun homosexuals and lesbians as immoral people leading a lesser and damaging lifestyle.
Having no standards is not conducive to having morals and one MUST choose their standards and live by the consequences.
If history has taught us anything , it is that man cannot govern himself and that most of the people are wrong most of the time.

A right and duty?
Is it my right and duty to shun you right now for thinking your being a judgemental asshat?

If my daughter or son were to grow up to be lesbian and gay, would I like it? Nope, I wouldn't. ANd they would know I dont agree with it but I certainly wouldnt shun them or their partner to give them grief, feeling unloved, and outcasts. They still would get my love and support as people for the good things they do, not make GAY the center of their life. I can do enough sinning on my own and concentrate on that alone, for a lifetime. Not concentrate HOW IMMORAL someone else is. YOu can give direction, but overall, its up to the individual, its they who have to deal in the end.

< Message edited by chatterbox24 -- 4/4/2013 9:02:13 AM >

_____________________________

I am like a box of chocolates, you never know what variety you are going to get on any given day.

My crazy smells like jasmine, cloves and cat nip.

(in reply to Paladinagain)

Post #: 87

RE: Does being religious mean that you are: - 4/4/2013 9:45:04 AM

Kirata

Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Paladinagain

If you believe in nothing you will fall for anything.

And if you're willing to believe anything, you will fall for everything.

K.

(in reply to Paladinagain)

Post #: 88

RE: Does being religious mean that you are: - 4/4/2013 9:58:32 AM

FunCouple5280

Posts: 559
Joined: 10/30/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: FunCouple5280
Really, explain why an atheist doesn't try and legalize murder in a democratic society. Explain how one could argue that murder in general would be considered a moral act? I am not talking about weird circumstances or exclusions like self-defense. I am talking about walking up and killing a random stranger..... Make a solid argument for that and I will eat my shoe.

Think before you go out advocating murder...

I don't advocate murder and never will.

The laws of the land were made by people we trust (at the time) to make such laws and they expect all reasonable humans within the jurisdiction to keep within those laws.

I see no logical reason why an atheist (or anyone else for that matter) would want to make murder allowable in law.
And I can't for the life of me think of any reason why it should be considered a 'moral' act.
It's like arguing a double-negative. It's absurd.
So try to explain to me, how or why you should pose such an idiotic question and pick a particular type of non-believer to be the target of such ubtuseness??

Why suggest something sooo incomprehensible as part of your argument??
It just doesn't make any sense. at all.

I didn't make the absurd argument, you did. You said murder wasn't necessarily immoral. if you have a problem being called on that, that is your issue

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)

Post #: 89

RE: Does being religious mean that you are: - 4/4/2013 10:06:08 AM

Hillwilliam

Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Paladinagain

If you believe in nothing you will fall for anything.
If you have morals you must make judgments.
I have a right and duty to shun homosexuals and lesbians as immoral people leading a lesser and damaging lifestyle.
Having no standards is not conducive to having morals and one MUST choose their standards and live by the consequences.
If history has taught us anything , it is that man cannot govern himself and that most of the people are wrong most of the time.

I have a right and duty to laugh at idiotic posts.

Who says that man cannot govern himself? He's been doing it for a quarter million years or more. The only time that things get really screwed up in when groups buy into the fable of "My invisible friend has given me more mojo than your invisible friend therefore I have a right, nay a duty, to kill you."

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to Paladinagain)

Post #: 90

RE: Does being religious mean that you are: - 4/4/2013 11:24:22 AM

JeffBC

Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Paladinagain
If you believe in nothing you will fall for anything.
...
If history has taught us anything , it is that man cannot govern himself and that most of the people are wrong most of the time.

Spoken like a true submissive (in the social sense rather than the BDSM sense).

Thank you very much but I'm quite content with ruling myself. I'm also way more in favor of having some politician rule me than I am some god. After all, you can argue with politicians and even vote them out of office. The same cannot be said of dieties.

Look, I'm all for people finding wisdom wherever they do. That might be the pages of a fiction novel. It might be the pages of the bible. It might be daily meditation out at the local duck pond. Wisdom is wisdom and morality is morality. I'll judge both when I see them not based upon some label or lack thereof. I think we are all acutely aware that religion is a secular institution and is just as prone to corruption by man as any other institution which is made by man. Surely I can't be the only guy on the face of the planet who thinks, "Man, if I were Jesus I'd be rolling in my grave at the shit which has been done in my name".

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to Paladinagain)

Post #: 91

RE: Does being religious mean that you are: - 4/4/2013 12:38:15 PM

DomKen

Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Maybe you should not try and walk back the very obvious insult against a broad group of people and simply apologize.

LOL. No. No apologies for not tailoring my comment to the lowest, and most easily offended, denominator. Either puzzle out what was actually said, or get out of the deep end.

I am curious though, Ken, why someone with such an established history of being a shameless liar as you have built for yourself, would want to participate in a thread on morality to begin with. In the faith-based value structure you operate by, is lying perfectly ok?

Another attack from you. Why do you persist in such?

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 92

RE: Does being religious mean that you are: - 4/4/2013 12:45:48 PM

DomKen

Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline

FR

As to the whole how does an atheist determine it is immoral to murder random strangers, morality is fundamentally about society functioning successfully. We may not think about it but that is really what it is. That is why every society that functions outlaws murder and theft and that iswhy it is immoral to murder.

(in reply to DomKen)

Post #: 93

RE: Does being religious mean that you are: - 4/4/2013 1:07:31 PM

vincentML

Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Maybe you should not try and walk back the very obvious insult against a broad group of people and simply apologize.

LOL. No. No apologies for not tailoring my comment to the lowest, and most easily offended, denominator. Either puzzle out what was actually said, or get out of the deep end.

I am curious though, Ken, why someone with such an established history of being a shameless liar as you have built for yourself, would want to participate in a thread on morality to begin with. In the faith-based value structure you operate by, is lying perfectly ok?

Another attack from you. Why do you persist in such?

Rich has a habit of using the Liar card. It makes him feel warm all over and he doesn't have to put forward a reasonable point.

(in reply to DomKen)

Post #: 94

RE: Does being religious mean that you are: - 4/4/2013 1:11:26 PM

Yachtie

Posts: 3593
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

FR

As to the whole how does an atheist determine it is immoral to murder random strangers, morality is fundamentally about society functioning successfully. We may not think about it but that is really what it is. That is why every society that functions outlaws murder and theft and that iswhy it is immoral to murder.

You have a problem there Ken. I doubt you see it.

Murder, if immoral (and by definition), crosses all boundaries. Societal norms, which you rely upon, do not. Thus for a member of one society to kill a member of another society can not be unequivocally stated as being immoral; they just might believe it is righteous.

_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to DomKen)

Post #: 95

RE: Does being religious mean that you are: - 4/4/2013 1:49:45 PM

Focus50

Posts: 3962
Joined: 12/28/2004
From: Newcastle, Australia
Status: offline

To no-one in particular, but people at each other's throats - THAT's what religion is to me.

As it is to the majority of the World's trouble spots - as it always was and always will be....

The great divider of man.

God's sick sense of humour or just us fucking it all up?

Focus.

_____________________________

Never underestimate the persuasive power of stupid people in large groups. <unknown>

Your food is for eating, not torturing. <my mum> (Errm, when I was a kid)

(in reply to Yachtie)

Post #: 96

RE: Does being religious mean that you are: - 4/4/2013 2:06:31 PM

cordeliasub

Posts: 528
Joined: 11/4/2012
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I think that faith is a very personal thing...as not having faith in a diety/dieties can be. For me that means understanding that not everyone is going to express their faith the same way I do. It also means understanding that some people will not express a faith at all. And - the biggest understanding at all - that it's pretty arrogant (not to mention annoying) of me to decide that I am the final authority as to whether they are right or wrong, smart or dumb, sane or crazy.

For me, personally, speaking for myself, in my own individual life, myself (hope that was clear enough)....my faith in God gives me comfort, direction, I find strength in that relationship. It motivates me to be grateful, thankful, to love others, and to want to live in a way that I believe is honorable for me to live. Hopefully I put enough me's and for myself's in there so that others are capable of comprehending that I was NOT indicating that anyone else had to do or think what I say.

I understand what I believe and why I believe it. I can also understand why someone else may believe differently. I can understand why someone might not believe in a God/god at all. And I am not all that exceptional. So the only thing I really have a problem with is someone who hears me associate the word "Christian" with myself and then assumes - without even knowing me - that I MUST be some war-mongering, persecuting, witch-trial encouraging, abortion doctor killing, homophobic paragon of intolerance and self-righteousness who might be mental incompetent. In fact....I always find someone's quick assumptions about me based on that one fact........ironic.

(in reply to Focus50)

Post #: 97

RE: Does being religious mean that you are: - 4/4/2013 2:07:22 PM

Kirata

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From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50

people at each other's throats - THAT's what religion is to me.

I wouldn't go so far as to indict religion as a whole. It seems to me that the real shit started with the notion that there is only ONE god, his name is whatever, and he's a jealous fuck. In other words, the "big three" tribal Monotheisms.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 4/4/2013 2:13:40 PM >

(in reply to Focus50)

Post #: 98

RE: Does being religious mean that you are: - 4/4/2013 2:10:06 PM

Yachtie

Posts: 3593
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50

people at each other's throats - THAT's what religion is to me.

I wouldn't go so far as to indict religion as a whole. It seems to me that the real shit started with the notion that there is only ONE god, his name is whatever, and he's a jealous fuck. In other words, the "big three" tribal Monotheisms.

K.

And they want to occupy the same space at the same time. Violates the rules of physics, if you get my meaning

_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to Kirata)

Post #: 99

RE: Does being religious mean that you are: - 4/4/2013 2:13:07 PM

freedomdwarf1

Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie
Murder, if immoral (and by definition), crosses all boundaries. Societal norms, which you rely upon, do not. Thus for a member of one society to kill a member of another society can not be unequivocally stated as being immoral; they just might believe it is righteous.

It was something along these lines I was trying to put across earlier but couldn't put it into words.

As an example of one-way-street thinking that many sheeple suffer from -
If a devout muslim tears a page or two from your bible to burn to keep warm and prevent him from freezing to death, you'd not begrudge him that little comfort. After all, it's only a printed book and you can buy another. It's no big deal. You certainly wouldn't murder him... or would you??
Now put the boot on the other foot and have a christian do the same to the Quoran... He would see it as his duty to kill you where you stand for defiling his holy book.

In western-governed societies, that killing would be considered illegal and unjustified.
In most Islamic-led societies, that would be considered your duty and you'd be patted on the back for it.
It's still one human killing another over something as trivial as a few printed pages in a book.
I don't necessarily consider that immoral per se; but definitely illegal as per our societies' rules and most of us would frown upon such behaviour.
From the muslim's PoV, it is very moral and expected of him even if it's actually illegal in the country he's living in.

(in reply to Yachtie)

Post #: 100

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