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[Poll]

Does being religious mean that you are:


More moral than the non-religious
  13% (8)
As moral as the non-religious
  36% (22)
Less moral than the non-religious
  18% (11)
chose none of the above as I refuse to voice an opinion yet still vote
  31% (19)


Total Votes : 60
(last vote on : 5/14/2014 8:05:37 PM)
(Poll will run till: -- )
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RE: Does being religious mean that you are: - 4/4/2013 2:15:52 PM   
Focus50


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50

people at each other's throats - THAT's what religion is to me.

I wouldn't go so far as to indict religion as a whole. It seems to me that the real shit started with the notion that there is only ONE god, his name is whatever, and he's a jealous fuck. In other words, the "big three" tribal Monotheisms.



Hmmm, this ONE God - he's of the male gender....

They at least imply there's a Mrs Claus. <shrugs>

Focus.

_____________________________

Never underestimate the persuasive power of stupid people in large groups. <unknown>

Your food is for eating, not torturing. <my mum> (Errm, when I was a kid)

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 101
RE: Does being religious mean that you are: - 4/4/2013 2:19:41 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

FR

As to the whole how does an atheist determine it is immoral to murder random strangers, morality is fundamentally about society functioning successfully. We may not think about it but that is really what it is. That is why every society that functions outlaws murder and theft and that iswhy it is immoral to murder.



You have a problem there Ken. I doubt you see it.

Murder, if immoral (and by definition), crosses all boundaries. Societal norms, which you rely upon, do not. Thus for a member of one society to kill a member of another society can not be unequivocally stated as being immoral; they just might believe it is righteous.

I was being general. If you want full detail you'll need to pay me to devote the time to a book on the subject.

(in reply to Yachtie)
Profile   Post #: 102
RE: Does being religious mean that you are: - 4/4/2013 2:20:07 PM   
FunCouple5280


Posts: 559
Joined: 10/30/2012
Status: offline 		you are stretching..... However, you are pleasantly proving the point that religion would make an act, that to a rational person is immoral, moral.

Because you are so wrapped up in politically correct cultural relative crap, you sit there say hey, maybe killing one for burning a book isn't immoral?!?!?!?!

Thanks for clarifying the trouble with in the name of _____ morality.

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 103
RE: Does being religious mean that you are: - 4/4/2013 2:21:11 PM   
Yachtie


Posts: 3593
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

FR

As to the whole how does an atheist determine it is immoral to murder random strangers, morality is fundamentally about society functioning successfully. We may not think about it but that is really what it is. That is why every society that functions outlaws murder and theft and that iswhy it is immoral to murder.



You have a problem there Ken. I doubt you see it.

Murder, if immoral (and by definition), crosses all boundaries. Societal norms, which you rely upon, do not. Thus for a member of one society to kill a member of another society can not be unequivocally stated as being immoral; they just might believe it is righteous.

I was being general. If you want full detail you'll need to pay me to devote the time to a book on the subject.



Now that is an example of a marvelous dodge.

_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 104
RE: Does being religious mean that you are: - 4/4/2013 2:22:43 PM   
Yachtie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FunCouple5280

that to a rational person


People are not rational, they are rationalizing. There is a difference.


_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to FunCouple5280)
Profile   Post #: 105
RE: Does being religious mean that you are: - 4/4/2013 2:24:47 PM   
freedomdwarf1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cordeliasub
...my faith in God gives me comfort, direction, I find strength in that relationship. It motivates me to be grateful, thankful, to love others, and to want to live in a way that I believe is honorable for me to live.

I find it interesting that those who follow a faith think in these terms.

Whereas those that don't (and I'm thinking atheist/agnostic here but not exclusively) think along the lines of 'why can't you do that anyway, as an individual, instead of looking to something else to do it for you or to motivate you'??

Why do you need that prop at all?
Why can't you do that off your own bat?
Are you not strong enough to do that on your own without help?

It reinforces the idea that religion was invented for the weak-willed.

(in reply to cordeliasub)
Profile   Post #: 106
RE: Does being religious mean that you are: - 4/4/2013 2:25:21 PM   
FunCouple5280


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie


quote:

ORIGINAL: FunCouple5280

that to a rational person


People are not rational, they are rationalizing. There is a difference.




Why are they rationalizing? because [insert diety here] or really the guy on shrooms writing the scripture gave them the notion that one should have faith, follow the word, and say fuck reason.

(in reply to Yachtie)
Profile   Post #: 107
RE: Does being religious mean that you are: - 4/4/2013 2:25:25 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

FR

As to the whole how does an atheist determine it is immoral to murder random strangers, morality is fundamentally about society functioning successfully. We may not think about it but that is really what it is. That is why every society that functions outlaws murder and theft and that iswhy it is immoral to murder.



You have a problem there Ken. I doubt you see it.

Murder, if immoral (and by definition), crosses all boundaries. Societal norms, which you rely upon, do not. Thus for a member of one society to kill a member of another society can not be unequivocally stated as being immoral; they just might believe it is righteous.

I was being general. If you want full detail you'll need to pay me to devote the time to a book on the subject.



Now that is an example of a marvelous dodge.

No. It is the truth. There are many times when killing another person is in society's best interests. Detailing all of those and the why thereof would take many pages of text.

But in general murder is immoral as I said.

(in reply to Yachtie)
Profile   Post #: 108
RE: Does being religious mean that you are: - 4/4/2013 2:28:43 PM   
freedomdwarf1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FunCouple5280
Because you are so wrapped up in politically correct cultural relative crap, you sit there say hey, maybe killing one for burning a book isn't immoral?!?!?!?!

Because to a devout muslim, any desecration or defacement of his holy book would entitle him to kill you and neither he, nor his fellow followers would not consider that immoral - even if those outside of that faith would think so.

(in reply to FunCouple5280)
Profile   Post #: 109
RE: Does being religious mean that you are: - 4/4/2013 2:29:11 PM   
Focus50


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From: Newcastle, Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cordeliasub

I think that faith is a very personal thing...as not having faith in a diety/dieties can be. For me that means understanding that not everyone is going to express their faith the same way I do. It also means understanding that some people will not express a faith at all. And - the biggest understanding at all - that it's pretty arrogant (not to mention annoying) of me to decide that I am the final authority as to whether they are right or wrong, smart or dumb, sane or crazy.

For me, personally, speaking for myself, in my own individual life, myself (hope that was clear enough)....my faith in God gives me comfort, direction, I find strength in that relationship. It motivates me to be grateful, thankful, to love others, and to want to live in a way that I believe is honorable for me to live. Hopefully I put enough me's and for myself's in there so that others are capable of comprehending that I was NOT indicating that anyone else had to do or think what I say.

I understand what I believe and why I believe it. I can also understand why someone else may believe differently. I can understand why someone might not believe in a God/god at all. And I am not all that exceptional. So the only thing I really have a problem with is someone who hears me associate the word "Christian" with myself and then assumes - without even knowing me - that I MUST be some war-mongering, persecuting, witch-trial encouraging, abortion doctor killing, homophobic paragon of intolerance and self-righteousness who might be mental incompetent. In fact....I always find someone's quick assumptions about me based on that one fact........ironic.


Yeah, I'm fine with faith in a divine being; of spirituality etc. Can't say as I'm overtly spiritual myself, but there's enough gone on in my life to sometimes make me wonder.

But religion - that's too much of man's shit going on there. If you read between the lines of the different door knockers, there's only one true religion, too - theirs!

That was a good read, btw. Entertaining, too - not meaning any personal disrespect.

Focus.

_____________________________

Never underestimate the persuasive power of stupid people in large groups. <unknown>

Your food is for eating, not torturing. <my mum> (Errm, when I was a kid)

(in reply to cordeliasub)
Profile   Post #: 110
RE: Does being religious mean that you are: - 4/4/2013 2:33:38 PM   
FunCouple5280


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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


quote:

ORIGINAL: FunCouple5280
Because you are so wrapped up in politically correct cultural relative crap, you sit there say hey, maybe killing one for burning a book isn't immoral?!?!?!?!

Because to a devout muslim, any desecration or defacement of his holy book would entitle him to kill you and neither he, nor his fellow followers would not consider that immoral - even if those outside of that faith would think so.




Then they are still an idiot commiting an immoral act they justify in their head with non-sense. Just like the guy in NJ who claimed as a muslim he had the right to rape his wife....... Relativism is dangerous when irrationally justified

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 111
RE: Does being religious mean that you are: - 4/4/2013 2:35:05 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

morality is fundamentally about society functioning successfully... That is why every society that functions outlaws murder

If that was all there was to it, then in societies that had a slave class morality would require that a "good" slave be obedient and respectful. And in some cultures, it was only considered "murder" if the dead guy belonged to your tribe or religion. Absent moral precepts that transcend cultural and societal differences, it's all relative.

K.



< Message edited by Kirata -- 4/4/2013 2:40:11 PM >

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 112
RE: Does being religious mean that you are: - 4/4/2013 2:35:30 PM   
cordeliasub


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Status: offline 		I'm definitely not weak willed. I just believe in God and Jesus Christ. I don't make choices because I am afraid of being squashed by a big guy in the sky. I can understand why it would be seen as a prop. And in some cases...I admit it IS a prop. When I had surgery to have a tumor removed and there was a chance it was cancerous (and I had a baby and 2 year old)....prayer, knowing that friends were praying for me, and various verse gave me comfort and strength as I waited for that verdict. When I am heavy-hearted, I find that praise and worship songs lift me up and give me hope. I guess that my faith can be considered a prop in those cases. But honestly, I was very glad to have something I believed to cling to during those tough times. As far as morality goes, yes, because I was raised in a Christian home, the values that I hold to are - in part - rooted in that faith. But I do think that we all have that "this is just wrong/this is just right" innate kind of sense - call it conscience or whatever.

It is very possible that I will come to the end of my life and there will be nothing else. I will find out that life is just...over and I didn't have to worry about all that "god stuff" after all. With the exception of a period of time when I was at a very strict fundamentalist church, I don't think I will regret having something/someone to cling to in frightening or sorrowful times, a hope, and a direction that comes from who I consider to be a God who created and loves me. I am happy with my life (most days lol) and with the belief I have, and with how those principles have helped me to order certain things in my life. If this life IS all there is, I am still glad to have lived and believed that way I have.

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 113
RE: Does being religious mean that you are: - 4/4/2013 2:39:16 PM   
DomKen


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From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

morality is fundamentally about society functioning successfully... That is why every society that functions outlaws murder

If that was all there was to it, then in societies that had a slave class morality would require that a "good" slave to be obedient and respectful. The fact is, it's all relative absent moral precepts that transcend cultural and societal differences.

In societies where slavery was accepted that was the norm. You need to study some history.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 114
RE: Does being religious mean that you are: - 4/4/2013 2:45:54 PM   
Yachtie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

FR
As to the whole how does an atheist determine it is immoral to murder random strangers, morality is fundamentally about society functioning successfully. We may not think about it but that is really what it is. That is why every society that functions outlaws murder and theft and that iswhy it is immoral to murder.




You have a problem there Ken. I doubt you see it.

Murder, if immoral (and by definition), crosses all boundaries. Societal norms, which you rely upon, do not. Thus for a member of one society to kill a member of another society can not be unequivocally stated as being immoral; they just might believe it is righteous.

I was being general. If you want full detail you'll need to pay me to devote the time to a book on the subject.



Now that is an example of a marvelous dodge.

No. It is the truth. There are many times when killing another person is in society's best interests. Detailing all of those and the why thereof would take many pages of text.

But in general murder is immoral as I said.



Not only dodging, but moving the goal posts. But okay, lets be general about it then.

Now remember, you did state the following (see above) -

morality is fundamentally about society functioning successfully. We may not think about it but that is really what it is. That is why every society that functions outlaws murder and theft and that iswhy it is immoral to murder.

So, within the context of your statements -

If a society deems, generally, that killing a member of some other society is righteous, would such killing be immoral?

i.e. "We don't kill our own. That's against societal norms. Go kill a member of the Zee tribe. That okay. They're sub-human anyway."

The question is answerable Yes or NO.



< Message edited by Yachtie -- 4/4/2013 2:49:00 PM >

_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 115
RE: Does being religious mean that you are: - 4/4/2013 2:50:19 PM   
freedomdwarf1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FunCouple5280
Then they are still an idiot commiting an immoral act they justify in their head with non-sense. Just like the guy in NJ who claimed as a muslim he had the right to rape his wife....... Relativism is dangerous when irrationally justified

I quite agree - in it's generals terms as we have learned from our society.

To a muslim, it's not nonsense at all.
As far as they are concerned, it is us that have this nonsense notion that it's immoral.
To them, it's perfectly natural and acceptable.

Just sayin'.

(in reply to FunCouple5280)
Profile   Post #: 116
RE: Does being religious mean that you are: - 4/4/2013 2:52:18 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

If that was all there was to it, then in societies that had a slave class morality would require that a "good" slave to be obedient and respectful.

In societies where slavery was accepted that was the norm. You need to study some history.

Whoa, rock easy on that horsie or you'll fall off.

Try to focus on the point of what you quoted. "Morality" is a meaningless term if all it amounts to is whatever the fuck keeps the wheels of a society greased. We don't call that morality, we call it expediency. It's a language thing, yanno?

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 4/4/2013 2:56:54 PM >

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 117
RE: Does being religious mean that you are: - 4/4/2013 2:58:11 PM   
FunCouple5280


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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


quote:

ORIGINAL: FunCouple5280
Then they are still an idiot commiting an immoral act they justify in their head with non-sense. Just like the guy in NJ who claimed as a muslim he had the right to rape his wife....... Relativism is dangerous when irrationally justified

I quite agree - in it's generals terms as we have learned from our society.

To a muslim, it's not nonsense at all.
As far as they are concerned, it is us that have this nonsense notion that it's immoral.
To them, it's perfectly natural and acceptable.

Just sayin'.




Ok then, if you agree why make the argument? My point has been that the religious justify immorality, or rather morph it into morality, through an irrational belief structure.

If it is immoral then it is immoral. I know to crazy people it may not be immoral, why argue otherwise? Or what point were you getting at?

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 118
RE: Does being religious mean that you are: - 4/4/2013 2:58:28 PM   
UllrsIshtar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie

It's not about WHAT man does. It's about the rules, being the SOURCE of how one should operate (like Hoyle's Rules for card games).



You missed my point completely.

Of course I know what the moral compass should be. And if an actor fails to live in accordance to their self-stated moral compass, it's obviously possible it's the actor's, and not necisarily the moral compass' fault.
So from a theoretical point of view, you're completely right, and I completely agree with you.

However, my post spoke from a practical, not a theoretical, point of view. In practice, knowing what religion a person ascribes to doesn't give you ANY indication of what moral compass they operate by. It may give you an indication what moral compass they'll claim to be operating by, or what they'll tell you they'll do under certain circumstances... but as far as being an indication of what their action might be, it gives you as little information as you have with an Atheist.

Especially considering how much religious people disagree about the nuances of how their religious compass translates into action.

If I go by a Muslim's moral compass for instance, I need to assume that he feels morally obligated to kill me, because I'm among the worst type of infidel. In practice however, most Muslims I know live by a much watered down version of their religion's moral compass, and most of them hold as a value that it's be wrong to kill me for no good reason, some other Muslims I know feel they'd be morally in their right to kill me but will choose not to do so due to the possible legal ramifications that would hold.
So their religion tells me nothing about how their moral compass will dictate their actions towards me... to figure out their actual behavior in relationship to me, I have to talk to them as individuals, just like I would with an Atheist, because I've got as little of an indication of their individual morality, AND their adherence to their own morality, as I do with an Atheist.

So yeah, in theory religion is a nice starting ground to figure out how somebody's morals will guide them to act, but in practice it's virtually useless.



_____________________________

I can be your whore
I am the dirt you created
I am your sinner
And your whore
But let me tell you something baby
You love me for everything you hate me for

(in reply to Yachtie)
Profile   Post #: 119
RE: Does being religious mean that you are: - 4/4/2013 2:58:59 PM   
kalikshama


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quote:

Surely I can't be the only guy on the face of the planet who thinks, "Man, if I were Jesus I'd be rolling in my grave at the shit which has been done in my name".


I think of this often.

_____________________________

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(in reply to JeffBC)
Profile   Post #: 120
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