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[Poll]

Does being religious mean that you are:


More moral than the non-religious
  13% (8)
As moral as the non-religious
  36% (22)
Less moral than the non-religious
  18% (11)
chose none of the above as I refuse to voice an opinion yet still vote
  31% (19)


Total Votes : 60
(last vote on : 5/14/2014 8:05:37 PM)
(Poll will run till: -- )
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Does being religious mean that you are: - 4/3/2013 1:12:57 PM   
FunCouple5280


Posts: 559
Joined: 10/30/2012
Status: offline 		Recently, the various threads about Islamic violence on the boards got me thinking. Mostly because as soon as the argument was made people immediately began assailing Christianity as flawed etc.

Being non-religious myself I found the protagonist/antagonist discussion quite amusing. As if the only people critical of Islam must be bigoted Christians.

I see all religions as unfavorable. I think they exist as immoral institutions devoid of a real moral compass. While well intentioned in some cases and holding some noble ideas, in general, the contradictions and vagueness of their scriptures lend to unlimited moral exceptions and justifications. However, there is one central reason, I believe, that the religious tend to act more immorally than the non-religious is the certitude in their beliefs. I can't say I am certain there is or isn't a god or afterlife because I can neither prove or disprove it definitively.

Because of their certitude that their is an afterlife, they can convince themselves and other to commit some of the most heinous acts to please a deity and ensure a better life in the next. If you believe there isn't an afterlife or aren't sure, you have to value your present life both in its quality and duration. If there is nothing on the other side, you must make the most of what you have now. Now I know many religious argue that without an afterlife why would one care about being moral. I feel that it is central that one acts morally, not as religion defines it, but as reason defines. That being that you ultimately respect and care for your fellow man in the effort that they do the same for you. Meanwhile you care for your own well-being and health, so that you can spend as much time as pleasantly as possible while you are alive. Really without the promise of paradise in the here after, you have to be worried that negative would endanger your chances of having a better life.

How many suicide bombers could you recruit without the promise of the future?

How can you systematically hate someone without the support large group of haters?




Any thoughts on religions and morality in general not specific to one religion or another?
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: Does being religious mean that you are: - 4/3/2013 1:16:28 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline 		FunCouple, I think you should include a "None of the Above" option in the poll. I don't believe going to church makes one any more or any less moral, necessarily. As I see it, sitting in a church doesn't make you moral, just like sitting in a garage doesn't make you a car.

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to FunCouple5280)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: Does being religious mean that you are: - 4/3/2013 1:23:17 PM   
FunCouple5280


Posts: 559
Joined: 10/30/2012
Status: offline 		true, but sitting in a church doesn't make you religious either. Following doctrine an prescribing to the beliefs of a religion does. I excluded that option for that reason. You can pick the same as which is effectively the same.

I know plenty of people who 'identify' as Catholics but are not religious as they pretty much neglect all church doctrine

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
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RE: Does being religious mean that you are: - 4/3/2013 1:34:48 PM   
YN


Posts: 699
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

FunCouple, I think you should include a "None of the Above" option in the poll. I don't believe going to church makes one any more or any less moral, necessarily. As I see it, sitting in a church doesn't make you moral, just like sitting in a garage doesn't make you a car.


Seconded.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
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RE: Does being religious mean that you are: - 4/3/2013 1:37:16 PM   
FunCouple5280


Posts: 559
Joined: 10/30/2012
Status: offline 		Fine I will succumb to peer pressure but that defeats the purpose....it is cop-out and I may delete it

(in reply to YN)
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RE: Does being religious mean that you are: - 4/3/2013 1:54:36 PM   
kalikshama


Posts: 14805
Joined: 8/8/2010
Status: offline 		How do you define "being religious?"

quote:

I feel that it is central that one acts morally, not as religion defines it, but as reason defines. That being that you ultimately respect and care for your fellow man in the effort that they do the same for you. Meanwhile you care for your own well-being and health, so that you can spend as much time as pleasantly as possible while you are alive.


This sounds like part of the principles of Unitarian Universalism to me.

There are seven principles which Unitarian Universalist congregations affirm and promote:

- The inherent worth and dignity of every person;
- Justice, equity and compassion in human relations;
- Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in our congregations;
- A free and responsible search for truth and meaning;
- The right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within our congregations and in society at large;
- The goal of world community with peace, liberty, and justice for all;
- Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part.


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RE: Does being religious mean that you are: - 4/3/2013 1:59:57 PM   
Focus50


Posts: 3962
Joined: 12/28/2004
From: Newcastle, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FunCouple5280

I know plenty of people who 'identify' as Catholics but are not religious as they pretty much neglect all church doctrine


Lol, I think Hollywood's Prizzi's and Corleone's came under that umbrella....

Focus.

_____________________________

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RE: Does being religious mean that you are: - 4/3/2013 2:00:35 PM   
FunCouple5280


Posts: 559
Joined: 10/30/2012
Status: offline 		I am familiar with UU but can you really consider them a religion if you believe in a true 'free-for-all' of ideas. Or are you not asserting that they are a religion, just an association of like minded people?

(in reply to kalikshama)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: Does being religious mean that you are: - 4/3/2013 2:05:58 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FunCouple5280
true, but sitting in a church doesn't make you religious either. Following doctrine an prescribing to the beliefs of a religion does. I excluded that option for that reason. You can pick the same as which is effectively the same.
I know plenty of people who 'identify' as Catholics but are not religious as they pretty much neglect all church doctrine


Here is how I interpret the options:

Option 1 states that the religious person is more moral than the non-religious. It's a possibility, but not a guarantee.
Option 2 states that the religious is just as moral as the non-religious. It's also a possibility, but also not guaranteed.
Option 3 states the religious is less moral than the non-religious. Again, a possibility (but I would see that as having a lower probability).
Option 4 brings in the idea that being religious or non-religious doesn't necessarily mean anything as it pertains to morality, so there is no way to compare them to each other.

A cop out? Not really. I don't see a way to vote accurately, so I wouldn't be able to participate.

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to FunCouple5280)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: Does being religious mean that you are: - 4/3/2013 2:09:33 PM   
Focus50


Posts: 3962
Joined: 12/28/2004
From: Newcastle, Australia
Status: offline 		I, as a non-religious, checked the first option (More moral than the non-religious).

Not because I think they are but rather they seem to exude a sense of superiority just for attending, or rather being seen at, the Sunday club.

In some cases, apparently God can't spot a hypocrite when shrouded in a congregation.

Focus.

_____________________________

Never underestimate the persuasive power of stupid people in large groups. <unknown>

Your food is for eating, not torturing. <my mum> (Errm, when I was a kid)

(in reply to FunCouple5280)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: Does being religious mean that you are: - 4/3/2013 2:10:19 PM   
FunCouple5280


Posts: 559
Joined: 10/30/2012
Status: offline 		I would say you are over thinking it in an effort negate an opinion about general behaviors of groups of people. I am not trying to assert an absolute, but rather ferret out peoples' impressions.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: Does being religious mean that you are: - 4/3/2013 2:16:00 PM   
Rule


Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline

_____________________________

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"You are sweet, kind, and ever so smart, Rule. You ALWAYS stretch my mind and make me think further than I might have on my own" - Duskypearls

Si vis pacem, para bellum.

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Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Does being religious mean that you are: - 4/3/2013 2:39:01 PM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FunCouple5280
I would say you are over thinking it in an effort negate an opinion about general behaviors of groups of people. I am not trying to assert an absolute, but rather ferret out peoples' impressions.

My impression is that having some sense of morality is orthogonal to having some sense of spirituality/religion which are both orthogonal to having the strength to do anything about same. So I picked "none of the above".

Stepping back and looking it'd be tempting to point out all the things you have about religions. But those things are really more indictments against humanity as a whole than religions. It's humans acting in groups. In the end it's not the religion, it's the star on the belly.

How many suicide bombers could you recruit without the promise of an afterlife? I dunno but if you could convince me that there was a real and pressing peril and that my death would help avert it then I'd be game. Surely I'm not the only atheist who still thinks there are things bigger than myself... some of which are worth dying for.

How can you systemically hate without a support group? "hate of other" is built into us humans as are quite a few other handy little tools for sorting out pack structure. I think you've got the tail wagging the dog here.


_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

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Profile   Post #: 13
RE: Does being religious mean that you are: - 4/3/2013 2:43:30 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		IME there is no differences in the morality of religious and non religious people. The only real difference is the assumption by many religious people that they are inherently more moral than atheists.

(in reply to JeffBC)
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RE: Does being religious mean that you are: - 4/3/2013 2:44:41 PM   
kalikshama


Posts: 14805
Joined: 8/8/2010
Status: offline 		UU is a religion.

Unitarian Universalism is a theologically liberal religion characterized by a "free and responsible search for truth and meaning".[1] Unitarian Universalists do not share a creed; rather, they are unified by their shared search for spiritual growth and by the understanding that an individual's theology is a result of that search and not a result of obedience to an authoritarian requirement. Unitarian Universalists draw on many different theological sources and have a wide range of beliefs and practices.[2][3]

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Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Does being religious mean that you are: - 4/3/2013 3:02:49 PM   
FunCouple5280


Posts: 559
Joined: 10/30/2012
Status: offline 		I agree some of this is humanity, but you can also see that there is a trend in certain elements of human behavior to belong to a religion. Many who like that certitude and so forth love the trappings of what religion brings to the table. And religion with it convenient beliefs make a potent force against reason and convenient smoke screen for hiding that immoral behavior.

Believing in something bigger than yourself is not the issue entirely. As I alluded to in the post that I know you cannot prove or disprove the existence of god, I believe atheism requires just as much faith as the believer. I would question it as if you don't have the certitude/faith, wouldn't you question killing yourself for a greater purpose a lot more than the person who doesn't possess any doubt?. IE, you would want to know damn sure what you are doing is worth it. Not like you giving your life to save a bus load of kids from falling off a cliff, but that you would die for a cause. I think of the difference between akin to the Kamikaze versus Stalingrad. The Kamikaze believed they were doing this noble divine thing, where as the Russian soldiers were virtually committing suicide because they didn't have a choice (die by german hands or die by Russian hands, you weren't getting out so fight).

We inherently distrust what we don't know. But we don't 'systematically hate' till it is a mob. Take a clan member and drop him in the middle of Rwanda. Suddenly he aint' out barking white supremacy, not without back up. He might even learn to like dark skinned people given that it be necessary to his survival. Without that reinforcement of bad ideology one is more likely to adapt to get along.

(in reply to JeffBC)
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RE: Does being religious mean that you are: - 4/3/2013 3:15:42 PM   
YN


Posts: 699
Status: offline 		Your poll was otherwise based on the theory that "religion" affects or may affect "morality" the latter a term largely user defined.

I don't think there is anything but a very tenuous connection if any between the two.

(in reply to FunCouple5280)
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RE: Does being religious mean that you are: - 4/3/2013 3:22:47 PM   
YN


Posts: 699
Status: offline 		And it is rather cheap of you as well as likely a violation of the terms of service to change the poll from reading


quote:

none of the above


to reading

quote:

chose none of the above as I refuse to voice an opinion yet still vote


as it deliberately and materially misquotes the opinions of those voting for the former.

(in reply to YN)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Does being religious mean that you are: - 4/3/2013 3:25:47 PM   
BlkTallFullfig


Posts: 5585
Joined: 6/25/2004
Status: offline 		Being somewhat religious for me, is a tradition that I don't find entirely useless.
I certainly don't believe it makes me morally superior to most people at all.
You didn't give us enough choices IMO. M

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RE: Does being religious mean that you are: - 4/3/2013 3:29:04 PM   
Marini


Posts: 3629
Joined: 2/14/2010
Status: offline 		I am a proud Christian, and I am much more spiritual than I am "religious".
This is not a simple question to answer.

One of the reasons I strive to be a much better person on this earth, is because it helps me grow and actually makes it much easier to deal with the challenges of the world.
I really have no idea how I would handle this world, if I didn't believe in a higher power.
You certainly left off a variety of the many reasons, that people believe in a higher power and/are religious.

I haven't seen a good religion bashing thread in a while.
Maybe, you will be able to bash all organized religions at one time, in this one!

Congratulations


< Message edited by Marini -- 4/3/2013 3:36:10 PM >

_____________________________

As always, To EACH their Own.
"And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. "
Nelson Mandela
Life-long Democrat, not happy at all with Democratic Party.
NOT a Republican/Moderate and free agent

(in reply to FunCouple5280)
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