RE: Is there a "Right to Education"?

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LookieNoNookie -> RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? (4/4/2013 6:24:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle This issue arose on another thread, where one poster disputed the "Right to Education" which is part of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. His point of view is\|: "[i]A right to education is non-existent. It is desirable and well worth the cost to get one, but guaranteeing every person has a right to an education isn't possible. What is education, and who is responsible for providing it? Where does the right end? If I have a right to education, who pays for it? Do I have a right to a doctorate? Do I have a right to a particular level of university education?" For mine, the right to education is so basic that this is the first time I have heard it disputed. For parents (in the first instance) and State to fail to provide an education to children makes me wonder if either understands the responsibilities inherent in bringing a child into this world in the first place. Your thoughts please ....... Well, since education (so long as they continue to attend) is virtually assured K - 12, I'm thinking this question more applies to college, whether 2, 4 or 8 years. And....it's not a Right. As with anything valuable in life, there should be a price to be paid....otherwise, it's not deemed valuable. It should be (with an associated social/civil cost....2 years in some kind of military/Peace Corp, etc. for every 4 of college). I think tuition and books should be covered by the state/guv (fellow Republicans, don't sue me.....anyone below 50, you got lucky, ours was the last generation that could make a decent living with just a high school diploma)...but normal shit like food, housing, etc....buck up...participate in your own education. Any kid today that doesn't start out with a 4 year degree....I haven't a clue how they can make a decent living.

Edwynn -> RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? (4/4/2013 7:08:04 PM)
~FR~ How about this concept: there are no rights at all. I like this proposition better, because this then allows us to see what a society is all about. Every country provides for the educational basics, if only to facilitate the paying of taxes. The countries that actually make effort to prepare the Junglung (the kids) for whatever is required for a decent wage stand out to me as those who actually care about their own. The country that seems intent on becoming the largest banana republic in all of history seems to be hell-bent on making the kids all Orwellian-like "team players," by way of forced (and I DO mean forced) class interaction, wasting time with the blind leading the blind, coercion of the masses disguised as "critical thinking skills," demanding of these kids their 'opinion' before they are well informed enough of the facts. "Zusammenarbeit macht Frei." That's what I'm getting out of the US uni experience, firsthand. What an idiot I was to not have done this at an age-appropriate time in life, but this does not escape the fact that today's kids (in the US) are being horribly misguided and miseducated. I would judge the educational system of a country by results, which would demonstrate unequivocally that the US completely sucks, while the Germanic and Nordic nations seem to be doing OK for themselves. And no, I'm not going to explain any of that here. Do as I did; educate yourself properly, and figure it out on your own. Not gonna happen in the US, so get off your arse and get to it.

Marini -> RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? (4/4/2013 7:28:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail One of the largest ways in which we are continuing to fail is we haven't dumped that piece of shit teabagger no child left behind. Thanks for bringing up this massive failure called "No Child Left Behind". NCLB has managed to leave many, many, children left behind. I do think that children should have the "right" to a free and appropriate education. ONE of the reasons children in America have the RIGHT to an education, is because their parents and other citizens pay federal and often state taxes to fund the public schools. The American citizen of education needs to be dismantled, and a new and better system needs to be created. In the new school system, I would like to see social workers and therapists on staff, providing services to students as needed. Great topic princess tweaky! [;)]

DesideriScuri -> RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? (4/4/2013 7:36:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Edwynn ~FR~ How about this concept: there are no rights at all. I like this proposition better, because this then allows us to see what a society is all about. Every country provides for the educational basics, if only to facilitate the paying of taxes. The countries that actually make effort to prepare the Junglung (the kids) for whatever is required for a decent wage stand out to me as those who actually care about their own. The country that seems intent on becoming the largest banana republic in all of history seems to be hell-bent on making the kids all Orwellian-like "team players," by way of forced (and I DO mean forced) class interaction, wasting time with the blind leading the blind, coercion of the masses disguised as "critical thinking skills," demanding of these kids their 'opinion' before they are well informed enough of the facts. "Zusammenarbeit macht Frei." That's what I'm getting out of the US uni experience, firsthand. What an idiot I was to not have done this at an age-appropriate time in life, but this does not escape the fact that today's kids (in the US) are being horribly misguided and miseducated. I would judge the educational system of a country by results, which would demonstrate unequivocally that the US completely sucks, while the Germanic and Nordic nations seem to be doing OK for themselves. And no, I'm not going to explain any of that here. Do as I did; educate yourself properly, and figure it out on your own. Not gonna happen in the US, so get off your arse and get to it. Judging the educational system by the results isn't a good way to go about it. Unions fight against having teachers earn "merit raises" rather than step raises here in Ohio. As long as you're not a bad enough teacher to get fired, you get your step raise, regardless of how effective a teacher you are. The merit system, however, is tough because you are relying on how kids perform on a test, and that may not accurately reflect your teaching skills, as the poor teaching may have come grades before you get your chance with the child. Plus, a teacher in an Honor's class will pretty much always have a better student achievement on the tests compared to the teacher with the remedial classes. And, that's not fair at all. Tenure, could very easily be abused to make sure the teacher with the most tenure gets the best classes, and, thus, the highest achievers for students. These kids will tend to outperform regardless of the quality of teacher. I have said it before, and will say it again, here, I fully believe the single biggest factor in a child's educational achievement, is the parent(s). Parents who are positive about education, support their kids in school, and do what parenting needs to be done to make sure their kids are ready and focused on school achievement will have kids that do better than those kids without the supportive parents. You can compare the US to any other country you want, but if you're leaving out the role of the family, you're missing out greatly. I wish I had an answer that made parents be the parents and be more supportive of their child(ren)'s educations. We'd have significantly better results and public schools would be less taxing (pun intended).

tweakabelle -> RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? (4/4/2013 7:41:02 PM)
quote: DesideriScuri Guaranteeing someone access to an education is extremely important. But, guaranteeing an education is damn near impossible. Look at drop out rates and at how many don't graduate. "Guaranteeing someone access to an education is extremely important." seems to me to be a different way of saying that there is a Right to Education. So I am glad you appear to have come around to that way of thinking. Of course it's impossible to guarantee an outcome - for one thing there are far too many variables involved preventing any one guaranteeing any particular outcome. quote: PoliteSub It is laughable that some of you dont see education as a right, yet insist you can carry firearms. More than laughable - I'd say utterly bizarre. [:D] But thanks for pointing out how incongruous this position is.

SpanishMatMaster -> RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? (4/4/2013 8:15:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle His point of view is: "A right to education is non-existent. It is desirable and well worth the cost to get one, but guaranteeing every person has a right to an education isn't possible." I am sorry I am not going to follow this conversaion, but I think the author of that line has a problem with the definition of "right". Right is not something which must be guaranteed by anyone (right lo live? eternal life?) but something nobody should do anything to prevent. Of course, unless this conflicts with other rights. Just saying.

Edwynn -> RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? (4/4/2013 8:35:26 PM)
As is usual, I agree in large part with the spirit of what tweakabelle intends, but I can't consolidate my own thoughts about the matter, so I have to argue with her to get some of it sorted. I am just trying to say that any good society should not even think about this matter, it should just be a 'given.'

Edwynn -> RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? (4/4/2013 8:43:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: Edwynn ~FR~ How about this concept: there are no rights at all. I like this proposition better, because this then allows us to see what a society is all about. Every country provides for the educational basics, if only to facilitate the paying of taxes. The countries that actually make effort to prepare the Junglung (the kids) for whatever is required for a decent wage stand out to me as those who actually care about their own. The country that seems intent on becoming the largest banana republic in all of history seems to be hell-bent on making the kids all Orwellian-like "team players," by way of forced (and I DO mean forced) class interaction, wasting time with the blind leading the blind, coercion of the masses disguised as "critical thinking skills," demanding of these kids their 'opinion' before they are well informed enough of the facts. "Zusammenarbeit macht Frei." That's what I'm getting out of the US uni experience, firsthand. What an idiot I was to not have done this at an age-appropriate time in life, but this does not escape the fact that today's kids (in the US) are being horribly misguided and miseducated. I would judge the educational system of a country by results, which would demonstrate unequivocally that the US completely sucks, while the Germanic and Nordic nations seem to be doing OK for themselves. And no, I'm not going to explain any of that here. Do as I did; educate yourself properly, and figure it out on your own. Not gonna happen in the US, so get off your arse and get to it. Judging the educational system by the results isn't a good way to go about it. Unions fight against having teachers earn "merit raises" rather than step raises here in Ohio. As long as you're not a bad enough teacher to get fired, you get your step raise, regardless of how effective a teacher you are. The merit system, however, is tough because you are relying on how kids perform on a test, and that may not accurately reflect your teaching skills, as the poor teaching may have come grades before you get your chance with the child. Plus, a teacher in an Honor's class will pretty much always have a better student achievement on the tests compared to the teacher with the remedial classes. And, that's not fair at all. Tenure, could very easily be abused to make sure the teacher with the most tenure gets the best classes, and, thus, the highest achievers for students. These kids will tend to outperform regardless of the quality of teacher. I have said it before, and will say it again, here, I fully believe the single biggest factor in a child's educational achievement, is the parent(s). Parents who are positive about education, support their kids in school, and do what parenting needs to be done to make sure their kids are ready and focused on school achievement will have kids that do better than those kids without the supportive parents. You can compare the US to any other country you want, but if you're leaving out the role of the family, you're missing out greatly. I wish I had an answer that made parents be the parents and be more supportive of their child(ren)'s educations. We'd have significantly better results and public schools would be less taxing (pun intended). I started off with ranking countries by health outcomes, standard of living, quality of life, etc., and taking note of what educational system is behind that. You start off with Ohio union teachers. I think I see the problem here.

DesideriScuri -> RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? (4/5/2013 3:07:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Edwynn quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: Edwynn ~FR~ How about this concept: there are no rights at all. I like this proposition better, because this then allows us to see what a society is all about. Every country provides for the educational basics, if only to facilitate the paying of taxes. The countries that actually make effort to prepare the Junglung (the kids) for whatever is required for a decent wage stand out to me as those who actually care about their own. The country that seems intent on becoming the largest banana republic in all of history seems to be hell-bent on making the kids all Orwellian-like "team players," by way of forced (and I DO mean forced) class interaction, wasting time with the blind leading the blind, coercion of the masses disguised as "critical thinking skills," demanding of these kids their 'opinion' before they are well informed enough of the facts. "Zusammenarbeit macht Frei." That's what I'm getting out of the US uni experience, firsthand. What an idiot I was to not have done this at an age-appropriate time in life, but this does not escape the fact that today's kids (in the US) are being horribly misguided and miseducated. I would judge the educational system of a country by results, which would demonstrate unequivocally that the US completely sucks, while the Germanic and Nordic nations seem to be doing OK for themselves. And no, I'm not going to explain any of that here. Do as I did; educate yourself properly, and figure it out on your own. Not gonna happen in the US, so get off your arse and get to it. Judging the educational system by the results isn't a good way to go about it. Unions fight against having teachers earn "merit raises" rather than step raises here in Ohio. As long as you're not a bad enough teacher to get fired, you get your step raise, regardless of how effective a teacher you are. The merit system, however, is tough because you are relying on how kids perform on a test, and that may not accurately reflect your teaching skills, as the poor teaching may have come grades before you get your chance with the child. Plus, a teacher in an Honor's class will pretty much always have a better student achievement on the tests compared to the teacher with the remedial classes. And, that's not fair at all. Tenure, could very easily be abused to make sure the teacher with the most tenure gets the best classes, and, thus, the highest achievers for students. These kids will tend to outperform regardless of the quality of teacher. I have said it before, and will say it again, here, I fully believe the single biggest factor in a child's educational achievement, is the parent(s). Parents who are positive about education, support their kids in school, and do what parenting needs to be done to make sure their kids are ready and focused on school achievement will have kids that do better than those kids without the supportive parents. You can compare the US to any other country you want, but if you're leaving out the role of the family, you're missing out greatly. I wish I had an answer that made parents be the parents and be more supportive of their child(ren)'s educations. We'd have significantly better results and public schools would be less taxing (pun intended). I started off with ranking countries by health outcomes, standard of living, quality of life, etc., and taking note of what educational system is behind that. You start off with Ohio union teachers. I think I see the problem here. I don't think you do see the problem here.

thompsonx -> RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? (4/5/2013 6:03:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Yachtie Anyone has just as much right to 'get educated' as 'have a firearm'. I don't see people clamoring that one has a right to a firearm provided by government though, do you? My understanding is that in cuba not only does he govt supply the citizens with guns but also the ammo for them...too kewel... I want an xp 100 in .220 swift.[:D]

thompsonx -> RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? (4/5/2013 6:21:42 AM)
quote: Equal opportunity is not the same as the right to a State funded education. Two different things. Arguing that everyone has a right to an education and everyone having the right of access to an education are vastly different. Some may see my point as mere semantics, but they are valid objections, considering the bullshit that Government has gone lengths to pass its agendas. If you say "equal opportunity" how does the poor individual have the same opportuniy as the rich one? Semantically you have tried to put yourself in a favorable moral position while wringing your hands about the lack of funds...if there is enough money for a couple of wars in the sand box there certainly is money enough for a few teachers. quote: Clear lines need to be drawn, or Government will prove that there really is no line. You seem to do a pretty good job of shape shifting here...you want to have us believe that the govt is some spooky entity with an agenda that we must always be on guard against...for fucks sake the govt is whom we ellect not some conspiracy from outer space. quote: Guaranteeing someone access to an education is extremely important. How do you do that without guaranteeing the funding also? quote: But, guaranteeing an education is damn near impossible. Look at drop out rates and at how many don't graduate. How about you focus on the question at hand...the drop out rate has nothing to do with whether education is a right. Drop out rate has to do with incintive and opportunity and nothing to do with access...for you to try to insert it here is nothing more than a red herring. quote: And, if it's a right, there is no end to it. It is mandatory to be provided at any time. There is no age-limit to it, either, else it's not a right but a privilege of youth. Why should there be an age limit?

thompsonx -> RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? (4/5/2013 6:27:22 AM)
quote: As with anything valuable in life, there should be a price to be paid....otherwise, it's not deemed valuable. Absolute moronic drivel...you do not pay a penny for the air you breath and yet you cherrish it? quote: It should be (with an associated social/civil cost....2 years in some kind of military/Peace Corp, etc. for every 4 of college). Why???Does not the state and society benifit from an educated society? Why is it thatyou want more why the greed???? quote: I think tuition and books should be covered by the state/guv (fellow Republicans, don't sue me.....anyone below 50, you got lucky, ours was the last generation that could make a decent living with just a high school diploma)...but normal shit like food, housing, etc....buck up...participate in your own education. Any kid today that doesn't start out with a 4 year degree....I haven't a clue how they can make a decent living. One does not need a high school diploma to be a car mechanic and a good car mechanic in an agency garrage can make 200k a year with no sweat.

Darkfeather -> RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? (4/5/2013 6:50:53 AM)
What other countries see, and what we continue to not see, is that when the populace is educated and educated at or above the college level overall stats improve. Crime does down, poverty goes down, self-esteem goes up, and that translates to GNP going up. These are not rights, they are fundamental necessities of human dignity. But we are the country who still can't get centralized universal healhcare situated yet, how the hell are we going to get education... Extrapolate that out, when everyone is well fed, healthy, in a nice warm home as well. And it can be done because there are dozens of countries that do it. Food for all, healthcare for all, free education. And yet we in one of the richest nations bicker with each other over the littlest points of a piddly little attempt at healthcare reform

tj444 -> RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? (4/5/2013 7:01:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx if there is enough money for a couple of wars in the sand box there certainly is money enough for a few teachers. There is online education now, people that want to homeschool can do that easier as there is now an online program thru the public school system.. and for futher education, online universities etc.. The online system I would think would be a much more effective use of funding.. maybe that is the future.. perhaps brick and mortar schools are becoming more and more obsolete.. http://www.k12.com/schools-programs/online-public-schools

eulero83 -> RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? (4/5/2013 7:22:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tj444 quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx if there is enough money for a couple of wars in the sand box there certainly is money enough for a few teachers. There is online education now, people that want to homeschool can do that easier as there is now an online program thru the public school system.. and for futher education, online universities etc.. The online system I would think would be a much more effective use of funding.. maybe that is the future.. perhaps brick and mortar schools are becoming more and more obsolete.. http://www.k12.com/schools-programs/online-public-schools looks like a dystopia to me

tj444 -> RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? (4/5/2013 7:47:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: eulero83 quote: ORIGINAL: tj444 quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx if there is enough money for a couple of wars in the sand box there certainly is money enough for a few teachers. There is online education now, people that want to homeschool can do that easier as there is now an online program thru the public school system.. and for futher education, online universities etc.. The online system I would think would be a much more effective use of funding.. maybe that is the future.. perhaps brick and mortar schools are becoming more and more obsolete.. http://www.k12.com/schools-programs/online-public-schools looks like a dystopia to me why? you do still need teachers to help you/kids with areas you need help with.. I have done a similar course a long time ago.. it teaches a person to self-motivate & you can usually progress at your own speed.. I didnt have a teacher or mentor tho and that would have helped me.. I still passed easily without that tho.. I hated going to a real school as a kid.. apart from the bullying, cliques, and games.. I felt held back by those that couldnt grasp concepts that seemed so easy to me.. I have always felt 12 years of school could actually be done in half that time.. for people like me, I would much prefer that.. but that wasnt an option at that time.. if i had kids, this is likely what i would do with them.. but of course, lots of parents want a glorified free babysitting service so have at it..

mnottertail -> RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? (4/5/2013 7:50:47 AM)
Since there is a right to disinformation (Faux Nuze, Breitbart, Boortz, WND, DailyCaller) and other teabagger asswipe via the freedom of speech clause, I would think that an equivalent and counterbalancing right to education would be inferred to exist by that same mechanism.

FunCouple5280 -> RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? (4/5/2013 8:11:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tj444 quote: ORIGINAL: eulero83 quote: ORIGINAL: tj444 quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx if there is enough money for a couple of wars in the sand box there certainly is money enough for a few teachers. There is online education now, people that want to homeschool can do that easier as there is now an online program thru the public school system.. and for futher education, online universities etc.. The online system I would think would be a much more effective use of funding.. maybe that is the future.. perhaps brick and mortar schools are becoming more and more obsolete.. http://www.k12.com/schools-programs/online-public-schools looks like a dystopia to me why? you do still need teachers to help you/kids with areas you need help with.. I have done a similar course a long time ago.. it teaches a person to self-motivate & you can usually progress at your own speed.. I didnt have a teacher or mentor tho and that would have helped me.. I still passed easily without that tho.. I hated going to a real school as a kid.. apart from the bullying, cliques, and games.. I felt held back by those that couldnt grasp concepts that seemed so easy to me.. I have always felt 12 years of school could actually be done in half that time.. for people like me, I would much prefer that.. but that wasnt an option at that time.. if i had kids, this is likely what i would do with them.. but of course, lots of parents want a glorified free babysitting service so have at it.. Consider Booker T Washington, and Abe Lincoln. Sometimes self education is very powerful. Gotta have schools, but there should be an array of options.

tj444 -> RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? (4/5/2013 8:26:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FunCouple5280 Consider Booker T Washington, and Abe Lincoln. Sometimes self education is very powerful. Gotta have schools, but there should be an array of options. of course.. it depends on what education you seek.. for some jobs you need that darn piece of paper that says you made it thru X numbers of years of certain education, if you need the piece of paper for a job you want then your options are much more limited (and much more expensive).. and some education (like to be a doctor or an electrician) you need practical hands-on experience also.. if you dont need that piece of paper.. all you need to do is find out what books are used by schools & universities and buy the books themselves.. who needs to actually sit in a classroom if they dont want to??? who needs to spend $20k or $50k on years of formal schooling when buying a few hundred dollars of used books will give you the same information and knowledge? or even cheaper, just get a library card..

DesideriScuri -> RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? (4/5/2013 8:36:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx quote: Equal opportunity is not the same as the right to a State funded education. Two different things. Arguing that everyone has a right to an education and everyone having the right of access to an education are vastly different. Some may see my point as mere semantics, but they are valid objections, considering the bullshit that Government has gone lengths to pass its agendas. If you say "equal opportunity" how does the poor individual have the same opportuniy as the rich one? Semantically you have tried to put yourself in a favorable moral position while wringing your hands about the lack of funds...if there is enough money for a couple of wars in the sand box there certainly is money enough for a few teachers. I support having a public school system because I believe it is a necessity. The Feds shouldn't be paying the local teachers, should they? I would figure that's more a State/local issue than a National one. A child growing up poor still has the opportunity to make something of him/herself. It may not be easy, but the opportunity is still there. quote: quote: Clear lines need to be drawn, or Government will prove that there really is no line. You seem to do a pretty good job of shape shifting here...you want to have us believe that the govt is some spooky entity with an agenda that we must always be on guard against...for fucks sake the govt is whom we ellect not some conspiracy from outer space. Where has Government shown they won't creep past the lines they draw, or that are drawn for them? quote: quote: Guaranteeing someone access to an education is extremely important. How do you do that without guaranteeing the funding also? Like I said, I support public education. I have no issue having taxes fund public schools. I have issues with taxes funding school programs I don't believe fall under the role of the school. quote: quote: But, guaranteeing an education is damn near impossible. Look at drop out rates and at how many don't graduate. How about you focus on the question at hand...the drop out rate has nothing to do with whether education is a right. Drop out rate has to do with incintive and opportunity and nothing to do with access...for you to try to insert it here is nothing more than a red herring. It isn't a red herring. If you are guaranteeing an education, you can't have drop outs. They aren't educated to the standards set by society. People who don't graduate aren't educated to the standards set by society. Where's the right to an education there? quote: quote: And, if it's a right, there is no end to it. It is mandatory to be provided at any time. There is no age-limit to it, either, else it's not a right but a privilege of youth. Why should there be an age limit? If it's a right, there shouldn't be an age limit. However, previous posters have stated that there is either an age limit, a certain level of education attained, or both.

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