RE: Is there a "Right to Education"?

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PeonForHer -> RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? (4/4/2013 1:21:36 PM)
quote: So if we want to bail on education then we ought to give up on democracy also. I'd go further: if we want to bail on education then we ought to give up on a society that can work in a reasonable way also. Some evidence.

Hillwilliam -> RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? (4/4/2013 1:29:07 PM)
An interesting personal anecdote. 40+ years ago, the Republican party was all for education, science and technology. Why? Science and technology meant innovation. Innovation meant new products and markets and new products and markets meant new profits. Now, the TX Republican party has as a part of its platform that 'critical thinking skills' should not be taught in schools. Why? My personal theory is that people who are incapable of independent thought make better 'sheeple'.

PeonForHer -> RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? (4/4/2013 1:32:08 PM)
quote: My personal theory is that people who are incapable of independent thought make better 'sheeple'. That's goddamned Commie talk, HW.

Baroana -> RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? (4/4/2013 1:45:01 PM)
FR Children have a fundamental right to education, per the US Supreme Court.

JeffBC -> RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? (4/4/2013 1:46:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer I'd go further: if we want to bail on education then we ought to give up on a society that can work in a reasonable way also. Some evidence. I interpret your evidence differently. Some of those conspiracy theories I agree with. Others I do not. My general sense is that conspiracy theories flourish in an environment where you KNOW that your power structures are not simply "acceptably corrupt" but "rotten to the core". Here in the US we KNOW that our politicians rig all elections (gerrymandering) Here in the US we KNOW that our politicians routinely lie to us (politifact, wikileaks) Here in the US we KNOW that our politicians will make up shit to start wars (WMD) Here in the US we KNOW that our politicians support things like torture, indefinite detention, extrajudicial murders the list goes on. So really, when I look at a list like that you could posit anything and I'd say "Of this group it's certainly plausible". So do I believe 9/11 was a direct government plot. No... but I sure as hell acknowledge how plausible that is. Do i believe that there is a NWO forming? Yeah, that's not even speculation. It's just not very secret. It's right out there in the open. In this case it is more than education which has let us down.

cordeliasub -> RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? (4/4/2013 2:20:30 PM)
I believe that all children should have access to education. I believe there should be equal opportunity to education. I do not believe it is realistic/possible to guarantee that every child is educated. I do not believe that being educated is a right. Here is what I mean: yes, ever child in my county should have equal access to school, to learning, to the educational process. Thy is why we have X county schools. However....they are NOT all guaranteed a diploma. It is not guaranteed that every child in school will succeed. Because children are not computers. You cannot input data using a program and then ensure that that data will always be processed in a specific way. Contrary to what idiots in legislatures who have never been inside a classroom think.....even the best teacher on planet earth cannot guarantee that every child in that room will learn. Period. Sorry to shatter the fantasy. Furthermore it is an unreasonable expectation that any human being can bring about the same level of success in a child with an 85 IQ and lazy, uninvolved parents as in a child with a 130 IQ with dedicated, involved parents. Again, sorry to bust up the fantasy. And that is why NCLB was idiotic. Making sure every teacher has a Master's and passes a test will not guarantee that every child in America can read on grade level by 3rd grade....and if they don't it is not necessarily because they were badly taught. Period. I am about as non-athletic as they come. It just isn;t in me. So I don;t care if Wimp Sanderson and Michael Jordan tag-teamed teaching and coaching me - I ain't gonna be a good basketball player....sorry. And if I never brush my teeth....then no dentist on earth can keep me from getting cavities. So yeah...every kid out there ought to have access to K-12 public education. What they and their parents decide to DO with that opportunity is up to them. Do we need excellent teachers? Of course. Does a child's failure always mean the teacher sucked? Nope. Sorry. What we need is for people who have no fucking clue about how kids learn to get the hell out of education and let people who actually know how to teach make some of the decisions.

FunCouple5280 -> RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? (4/4/2013 2:22:38 PM)
quote: I believe that all children should have access to education. I believe there should be equal opportunity to education. versus quote: being educated is a right. There is the crux of it all

eulero83 -> RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? (4/4/2013 3:26:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Darkfeather In European countries such as Spain, France and Italy tuition is usually free for European students. Since some years ago, less than ten, in germany also university was free for all (german or european students)

FunCouple5280 -> RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? (4/4/2013 3:28:55 PM)
Free but you weren't guaranteed access from what I understand. You still had to apply and meet standards.

thompsonx -> RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? (4/4/2013 3:59:04 PM)
quote: My personal theory is that people who are incapable of independent thought make better 'sheeple'. Certainly sounds like "commie talk"[;)]

thompsonx -> RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? (4/4/2013 4:02:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FunCouple5280 quote: I believe that all children should have access to education. I believe there should be equal opportunity to education. versus quote: being educated is a right. There is the crux of it all Looks like a chickenshit word game to me. Being educated is a right...if everyone has equal access to education then money is not an issue. If there is enough money for the war in the sand box then there is clearly money for education.

FunCouple5280 -> RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? (4/4/2013 4:07:53 PM)
Take your chill pill Thommy... Was I even offering an opinion other than pointing out the difference of opinion? [8\|] I think you like to see red sometimes and go flying off the handle

Politesub53 -> RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? (4/4/2013 4:22:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Yachtie Education as to or in what would that be Tweek? To what information or knowledge does one have a Right to receive? I am guessing you were educated at school in how to read and write, as well as at home. It is laughable that some of you dont see education as a right, yet insist you can carry firearms.

Politesub53 -> RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? (4/4/2013 4:24:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FunCouple5280 Free but you weren't guaranteed access from what I understand. You still had to apply and meet standards. Wise up brains......How do you think children got bright enough to go to university ?

thompsonx -> RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? (4/4/2013 4:26:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FunCouple5280 Take your chill pill Thommy... Was I even offering an opinion other than pointing out the difference of opinion? [8\|] I think you like to see red sometimes and go flying off the handle See red???no I just like pointing out ignorance and stupidity...as to the "chill pill" my mellow is unharshable[;)]

DaddySatyr -> RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? (4/4/2013 4:29:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JeffBC quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle Your thoughts please ....... My thought is that I don't agree with "rights" in the absolute sense except for what comes at the barrel of a gunpoint. In a more pragmatic sense I think that any sane society would seek to maximize the productivity and utility of all of it's citizens rather than seek to prop up one group on the backs of another. Also, in the pragmatic sense, I think that any democracy needs to treat educating the voting populace to be a critical part of the smooth functioning of government. So if we want to bail on education then we ought to give up on democracy also. This is, pretty much, where I was going to go. I don't know if education is a "right" but it certainly behooves a society to make sure that as many people as possible can function on some kind of (arbitrary) level. We sort of, already have that in the form of standardized tests as requirements for promotion/graduation. But, as someone else mentioned: at what point does our responsibility as a society end? There are plenty of high paying jobs that don't require a higher education/degree. The issue is that companies are not so quick to offer OJT anymore because it is too costly. Also, how is it my responsibility to make sure *your* child becomes a surgeon? That seems a little fucked up, to me and if that is the case; you people owe me some money as one of my sons still has student loans that Daddy's paying off. So, I don't know that there's a *right* to education beyond the basic "Three Rs". I think we do owe that to our children as a society. However, here's another fly in the ointment: How many children couldn't possibly care less about education when it's provided? Yes, we can force them to go to school but we cannot *force* them to learn. My answer to that is fairly simple: the world needs ditch-diggers, too. Peace and comfort, Michael

FunCouple5280 -> RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? (4/4/2013 4:55:37 PM)
then read and take your anger to the original poster.....

FunCouple5280 -> RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? (4/4/2013 4:59:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: FunCouple5280 Free but you weren't guaranteed access from what I understand. You still had to apply and meet standards. Wise up brains......How do you think children got bright enough to go to university ? No Need to be rude. Who was arguing that you should be denied an education? Merely clarifying the difference between free and guaranteed. However, if you feel the need to project anger..... find someone else.

Yachtie -> RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? (4/4/2013 5:02:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: Yachtie Education as to or in what would that be Tweek? To what information or knowledge does one have a Right to receive? I am guessing you were educated at school in how to read and write, as well as at home. It is laughable that some of you dont see education as a right, yet insist you can carry firearms. Anyone has just as much right to 'get educated' as 'have a firearm'. I don't see people clamoring that one has a right to a firearm provided by government though, do you?

DesideriScuri -> RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? (4/4/2013 5:17:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: Conflating equal opportunity with the right to a State funded education is disingenuous at the very least. Leave it out. The funding is extremely important in reality. Do I have the right to a State funded education at Harvard Medical School? You can't leave it out. Equal opportunity is essential to the Western creed. The communities of the West strive to offer an equal starting point regardless of race, religion, gender identity, etc. In order to achieve this [which we have not really] the various nations of the West have decided to pay for it using tax dollars and setting a limit for the availabilty of the opportunity. It is impractical to achieve such a goal intrinsic to our democracies in any other system than public education, which must be paid for because teachers services are means to the end. Come to find out that successful systems of public education offer benefits to the entire community. A little touch of social democracy, TYVM. Equal opportunity is not the same as the right to a State funded education. Two different things. Arguing that everyone has a right to an education and everyone having the right of access to an education are vastly different. Some may see my point as mere semantics, but they are valid objections, considering the bullshit that Government has gone lengths to pass its agendas. Clear lines need to be drawn, or Government will prove that there really is no line. Guaranteeing someone access to an education is extremely important. But, guaranteeing an education is damn near impossible. Look at drop out rates and at how many don't graduate. And, if it's a right, there is no end to it. It is mandatory to be provided at any time. There is no age-limit to it, either, else it's not a right but a privilege of youth.

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