RE: The depraved paradise? (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion



Message

Moonhead -> RE: The depraved paradise? (4/16/2013 2:08:12 PM)

I just find the excuses that Catholic theologians are prone to make for an allegedly omnipotent God doing fuck all to police his creation a bit pathetic, to be honest. It's something that's annoyed me as long as I can remember.



hlen5 -> RE: The depraved paradise? (4/16/2013 2:08:39 PM)

I could tell.

ETA: I didn't get my understanding of free will from Catholicism.



Moonhead -> RE: The depraved paradise? (4/16/2013 2:19:07 PM)

I never implied that you did, and I apologise if it comes across that way.
Unfortunately, the only interest a lot of people with strict religious views have in free will is that it lets their chosen ceiling cat off the hook for incompetence, which was my original point.



Kirata -> RE: The depraved paradise? (4/16/2013 2:22:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

Hence those with no belief in God have less vested in the idea of free will on a metaphysical level, dig?

I don't think that hair will split. We all have a deep investment in free will on every level.

K.



tweakabelle -> RE: The depraved paradise? (4/17/2013 2:32:15 AM)

This discussion seems to be headed towards a black-or-white choice ie. we have 'Free Will' or we don't. We start life as tabula rasa or we don't

There are other ways of looking at this question. For me it is important to distinguish between freedom of choice and 'Free Will'. Free Will implies an almost endless number of options theoretically available to the decision maker. In practice this is never the case. The choices available to us, and the decisions we might make are limited by factors too numerous to list here.

So I prefer to state our ability to make decisions as a freedom of choice. It is accompanied by an equally important ability - we possess the agency to exercise (or attempt to exercise) that freedom of choice. Both the freedom to choose, and the agency to exercise that choice are limited by a range of factors ranging from the natural - we can't choose to fly like birds - to the social - eg. our decisions are limited by our knowledge and educational levels.

We are free to choose, but the available choices are inevitably limited. Some of the factors limiting those choices an be influenced by human actions experiences etc, others can't. Looking at the question in this manner enables one to bypass the tedious, interminable Nature vs Nurture logjam, which can only benefit the discussion.



Toysinbabeland -> RE: The depraved paradise? (4/17/2013 3:18:01 AM)

If heaven does not exist, there is no need for consideration.

If heaven exists and there is a god, would they not heal a worthy mind if it is corrupted?

Just a thought.



vincentML -> RE: The depraved paradise? (4/17/2013 6:34:29 AM)

quote:

We are free to choose, but the available choices are inevitably limited. Some of the factors limiting those choices an be influenced by human actions experiences etc, others can't. Looking at the question in this manner enables one to bypass the tedious, interminable Nature vs Nurture logjam, which can only benefit the discussion.

Saying that we lack Free Will or Freedom of Choice does not muck us into the Nature v Nurture debate. It is a fusion of both. Tell me how Freedom is not an illusion if every choice you make comes from your internal environment [a fusion of nature and nurture] To take an extreme example I would suggest that you, Tweak, could never stuff a timing device and explosives into a pressure cooker and leave it in a crowded vicinity. Are you really free to make that choice? Your internal environment would never allow it. On a mundane level why is it you might chose to see one particluar film rather than another? We say to ourselves with our internal voice: "I rather LIKE that sort of film and have no interest in the other." The choice arises from your internals.

Metaphysically, to say it is your agency which makes the choice is just a rehash of the old body/mind seperation. You would have to show me that agency, like soul, exists apart from the biochemistry of stored memory and self perception.

Open to your response [which will be determined by your internals] [:D]

Vincent



Kirata -> RE: The depraved paradise? (4/17/2013 8:19:35 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Tell me how Freedom is not an illusion if every choice you make comes from your internal environment...

Your own previous choices have created the "internal environment" that you experience today.

K.







vincentML -> RE: The depraved paradise? (4/17/2013 9:04:58 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Tell me how Freedom is not an illusion if every choice you make comes from your internal environment...

Your own previous choices have created the "internal environment" that you experience today.

K.


Yes. And my own previous choices were in turn created out of emotions and experiences as well. Do you suppose our "internal environment" changes radically as we absorb more information or is there a "Jesuit-like" core that remains fairly basic? In any event it is the internal "me" who makes choices based on emotions and past experiences, no? Even recent experiences. Please don't bring up Watson. His ideas were too simple. Pigeons, wasn't it?



vincentML -> RE: The depraved paradise? (4/17/2013 9:15:39 AM)

quote:

The Seven Deadly Sins are not about the actions that people take, but more about emotional states of being, what's inside one's mind and heart. That's what these religions always say "God knows what's inside your heart." Greed, lust, envy, sloth, wrath, pride, gluttony. These are more internal conditions which may or may not be a result of someone's free will, but they don't necessarily involve making choices which would trespass against or violate the rights of other people. Granted, these are conditions which could lead to serious violations and sins against other people, but in and of themselves, they're mainly internal conditions which may be caused by any number of factors.

Sorry I missed this earlier, Zonie.

If these emotions do not necessarily lead to making choices which violate the rights of other people is it not because you have internalized a system of morality which is in conflict with those seven emotions and wants? And so is not your code of morality internal and part of the voice that speaks to you when you make a choice or establish an intent? And is not the intent often formulated before it presents itself full blown to consciousness? "I would no more think to do such and such . . . ."

Aren't most of us born with or tutored in countervailing emotions like love, empathy, respect, fear of consequences, etc?



Moonhead -> RE: The depraved paradise? (4/17/2013 12:12:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

Hence those with no belief in God have less vested in the idea of free will on a metaphysical level, dig?

I don't think that hair will split. We all have a deep investment in free will on every level.

K.

Really?
And there was me thinking that you were a Godly man, not an existentialist.



Kirata -> RE: The depraved paradise? (4/17/2013 12:26:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

And there was me thinking that you were a Godly man, not an existentialist.

Are you implying that when she says, "oh God!" she's not talking to me?

(I suppose I could be mistaken)

K.



Moonhead -> RE: The depraved paradise? (4/17/2013 12:29:49 PM)

I'm implying that your only interest in free will is to make your boss upstairs look less incompetent.
That isn't hair splitting, however much you'd like to generalise this argument away from the Religious application of "free will" to making God look like less of a vindictive, abusive, incompetent fuckwit who isn't capable of arranging a piss up in a brewery.
Simple enough for you to grasp, or do I have to put a little video with glove puppets on youtube for you?



Kirata -> RE: The depraved paradise? (4/17/2013 1:00:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

I'm implying that your only interest in free will is to make your boss upstairs look less incompetent...

do I have to put a little video with glove puppets on youtube for you?

A video on youtube is of no use. Post some winning lottery ticket numbers.

Be sure to specify what lottery they're for.

K.




Moonhead -> RE: The depraved paradise? (4/17/2013 1:09:52 PM)

If your God can't give you that, that's something else he needs free will as an excuse for, isn't it?



Kirata -> RE: The depraved paradise? (4/17/2013 1:51:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

If your God can't give you that, that's something else he needs free will as an excuse for, isn't it?

I don't know where you're getting this "your God" shit from, or why you keep harping on it, but people who think that the ideas in their head belong to someone else have a serious condition. It's unfortunate that they seldom consider getting help.

K.



Moonhead -> RE: The depraved paradise? (4/17/2013 3:39:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Free Will is an essential doctrine to the religious...

For the non-religious, not so much?

K.

You didn't say this, then?



searching4mysir -> RE: The depraved paradise? (4/17/2013 3:50:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: muhly22222


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jewelcrafter

Sh, now there is an interesting fact. This person has done nothing in life to warrant an eternity in Hell. So, what exactly will he be doing there?


In theory, couldn't God make this person's heaven a lifetime of serving the devil's wishes? So rather than being tortured in hell, he'd be doing the torturing?

With that being said, many religions don't make the heaven/hell distinction based solely on good works. Most of the time, there's also a faith/worship requirement. A person has to believe in God and truly worship God while doing the good works that are demanded of him/her by that faith and worship (this is true in the Christian tradition, anyway).

Thus, if he was only engaging in those good works to spend a lifetime in "paradise," he wouldn't be worthy of that paradise.



Exactly, so, for example, in Catholicism, heaven is an eternity in God's presence and hell is an eternity in his absence. All unholy desires are agony within the presence of God, so the desire to torture and cause pain would either need to be stripped from him or he would cast himself into hell.



Kirata -> RE: The depraved paradise? (4/17/2013 4:40:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Free Will is an essential doctrine to the religious...

For the non-religious, not so much?

You didn't say this, then?

I don't think that hair will split. We all have a deep investment in free will on every level.

K.



LookieNoNookie -> RE: The depraved paradise? (4/17/2013 5:27:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jewelcrafter

A thought I had years ago was this. What if a person who really gets off of hurting and killing people actually decides he is going to get into Heaven to live his paradise, torture and murder. He lives a virtual saints life. He never kills, steals, lies; he helps the downtrodden and is a pillar of society, selflessly giving of himself his entire life. He dies.

Now, by definition of being a good and decent person as stated above, he gets into Heaven. Does he get his violent and cruel utopia?

Just a thought. Curious of others thoughts.


Lemme just hold on here a sec....you're discussing a person who gets off on killing and maiming but that "he never kills and maims".

I'm sorry....I'm a child of the 70's....I mix metaphors all the time but....I'm fairly certain I missed your more than prescient point.



Page: <<   < prev  1 2 3 [4] 5   next >   >>

Valid CSS!




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy
0.046875