RE: The depraved paradise?

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searching4mysir -> RE: The depraved paradise? (4/17/2013 6:20:11 PM)
quote: "Lust" is just plain unfair. Humans are hardwired for lust, related to our reproductive instincts. God even said to "be fruitful and multiply" and he gives us hormones and all the programming to turn us into lust-crazed poon-hounds, but then turns around and says "Ah-ah-ah-ah! No, no, no, it's a SIN to feel lust!" To top it off, if we do feel lust, then it's supposedly a reflection of our free will, and then it becomes our fault. Lust is about objectification of another human being, not necessarily about sexual attraction. It is the using of another for your own personal gratification instead of loving people and seeing them as human beings of worth and dignity.

littlewonder -> RE: The depraved paradise? (4/17/2013 6:55:39 PM)
There is no separation of free will and predetermination. My belief is that God allows us to choose what direction we will go but he will do what he can to steer us in the right direction in the way he wishes us to go so that we can be happy and healthy. Think of it like this. You have a teenage, mid twenties child. You tell them what you would like for them in life and you do your best to steer your child in that direction but in the end, your child will decide for him/herself which way they want to go because they want to feel independent. They want to rebel, they want to make a decision for their self. If the child chooses the way you know will make him/her successful, healthy, happy then great. You created an environment for them previously for all of this to happen, hoping and praying they take that path. You cleaned the path of debris, you bagged up all the garbage, you repaired all the broken pieces or threw them away if you couldn't. But if the child chooses a direction that's not quite as good or completely awful, then you are sad, you try to change their direction by giving them little hints, trying to still hold on to the child but the child is determined to ignore you. So you just tell yourself "I tried. I really wish she/he would have had enough faith in me to know what was better for him/her but it's their choice. I can't make every choice for them. There comes a time when I just have to let go and hope they find their way back". Now replace the parent and child with God and us. God creates paths...predetermination. God lets you go to make your own choices....free will.

Zonie63 -> RE: The depraved paradise? (4/18/2013 5:27:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: The Seven Deadly Sins are not about the actions that people take, but more about emotional states of being, what's inside one's mind and heart. That's what these religions always say "God knows what's inside your heart." Greed, lust, envy, sloth, wrath, pride, gluttony. These are more internal conditions which may or may not be a result of someone's free will, but they don't necessarily involve making choices which would trespass against or violate the rights of other people. Granted, these are conditions which could lead to serious violations and sins against other people, but in and of themselves, they're mainly internal conditions which may be caused by any number of factors. Sorry I missed this earlier, Zonie. If these emotions do not necessarily lead to making choices which violate the rights of other people is it not because you have internalized a system of morality which is in conflict with those seven emotions and wants? And so is not your code of morality internal and part of the voice that speaks to you when you make a choice or establish an intent? And is not the intent often formulated before it presents itself full blown to consciousness? "I would no more think to do such and such . . . ." Aren't most of us born with or tutored in countervailing emotions like love, empathy, respect, fear of consequences, etc? Probably so, although I've known plenty of people (including myself) whose internal morality changed as they got older, often having to unlearn a lot of stuff they were taught as children. I think that we're socialized and conditioned towards certain behaviors. I remember having a discussion with someone over the notion that humans are taught to be violent, that without the negative societal upbringing, children would otherwise be little angels. But when you see infants and toddlers, one of the first things they learn on their own is the concept of "mine." They take things and say "Mine!" They internalize this and understand it before they learn more advanced concepts such as sharing and respecting other people's rights and property. They pull hair, pinch, bite; of course they can't do much damage since they're so small. To me, that indicates the "morality" that we're born with. Violent, driven by instinct and base emotions. If we were created by some intelligent being, then that's how "He" created us. Essentially, what religion tells us is that we should ignore our programming and that "God" did a crappy job in creating us. In order for a human to reach God's standard and be acceptable in "His" eyes (enough to be admitted into "Heaven"), we have to upgrade and improve God's sub-standard creation all by ourselves, without any active assistance from Up Above. Humans built machines and an entire civilization on their own, no help from "God." If we just went by "God's Creation," then we'd still be living in caves in the middle of a wilderness. That's what "God" gave us, and everything else, we had to scratch and claw on our own. I liked Gene Hackman's speech at the end of The Poseidon Adventure. Here's a man who believes in God, but he's clearly getting fed up with God's steady stream of bullshit: "What more do you want of us? We've come all this way, no thanks to you. We did on our own no help from you. We didn't ask you to fight for us but damn it, don't fight against us! Leave us alone! How many more sacrifices? How much more blood? How many more lives? Belle wasn't enough. Acres wasn't. Now this girl! You want another life? Then take me!" I think Job was similarly upset when God made a bet with Satan to fuck up Job's life and see what would happen. God didn't like being called on his own bullshit.

velvetears -> RE: The depraved paradise? (4/27/2013 12:29:07 AM)
According to christian beliefs God expects us to "sin" as he understands human nature and temptation. One cannot go to "heaven" unless one truly repents for their sins, this cannot be faked as God knows what is really in our hearts. If one truly repents, sincerly and asks for forgiveness then he forgives and allows one entry to his kingdom. According to this theory Hitller could have gained entry if he truly realized his "sins" and on his death bed asked god's forgiveness. This concept is unacceptable because of the inherent unfairness of it. The concept of free will has many flaws, people born with physical conditions that encourage and lead them to do harm ie: research on serial killers having an undeveloped frontal cortex as shown by brain scans and such. If this is true than how can a serial killer ever have free will if he were not born with the right tools (complete frontal cortex). If God is omniscient why would he have created such people - any way you rationalize it, God comes out looking flawed and if he is omnipotent and never makes mistakes then how do you account for this? Someone once told me their opinion of why he created people with free will. He said it was the only way God himself could experience love. If God is perfect and has no needs and he creates perfect beings then how can he experience any emotion? God wants to be loved and by people's faith, worship and choosing to follow his path, knowing how difficult it will be for us, this is how he experiences our love for him. I was raised christian but from my early twenties always had a leaning towards buddhist beliefs. There is no judgement. By your own actions and thoughts you create your own karma. Karma isn't judgement, it is what it is, there is no punishment. There are lessons to be learned in life and depending on how one lives will determine his next incarnation whereby karma comes in. Heaven and hell exist as life conditions which you yourself create. You can create positive karma by living a conscience life understanding every person is in some way experiencing their good and bad karma from past lives and balancing out the scale so to speak. This philosophy makes more rational sense to me. It makes me more compassionate towards people and understanding why people live their lives as they do. It makes no sense to me that a person can lead an evil life, turn to christian faith and be forgiven and gain entry to heaven - what can be learned by this?? To me it makes "God" almost look pathetic and narcissistic. Anyawy those are my thoughts on all this.

Kirata -> RE: The depraved paradise? (4/27/2013 3:09:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Zonie63 I remember having a discussion with someone over the notion that humans are taught to be violent, that without the negative societal upbringing, children would otherwise be little angels. But when you see infants and toddlers, one of the first things they learn on their own is the concept of "mine." They take things and say "Mine!" They internalize this and understand it before they learn more advanced concepts such as sharing and respecting other people's rights and property. Infants won't usually claim something that they identify as belonging to another. But they do think they can claim things that don't recognizably belong to someone else, and will react with anger (or sadness) if it is taken away because it's not right to take something that belongs to someone else. Babies know what's fair We found that 19- and 21-month-old infants have a general expectation of fairness, and they can apply it appropriately to different situations Sense of Justice Built Into the Brain The study is based on the universal human behaviour to react with instant aggression when another person behaves unfairly Nor is this sense of fairness common only to humans: Moral behavior in animals [video] There's more to what's innate in us, and it's not all cherries. But don't give up on fairness. K.

vincentML -> RE: The depraved paradise? (4/27/2013 7:38:13 AM)
quote: Infants won't usually claim something that they identify as belonging to another. But they do think they can claim things that don't recognizably belong to someone else, and will react with anger (or sadness) if it is taken away because it's not right to take something that belongs to someone else. Babies know what's fair Kinda interesting that the reaction to perceived unfairness is aggressive in males. Walking on the dark side of the genome.[:)]

Kirata -> RE: The depraved paradise? (4/27/2013 8:14:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML Kinda interesting that the reaction to perceived unfairness is aggressive in males. Walking on the dark side of the genome.[:)] What would you call real unfairness, as opposed to "perceived unfairness," and might not an aggressive response to real unfairness be our noble side rather than our dark side? K.

vincentML -> RE: The depraved paradise? (4/27/2013 9:42:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML Kinda interesting that the reaction to perceived unfairness is aggressive in males. Walking on the dark side of the genome.[:)] What would you call real unfairness, as opposed to "perceived unfairness," and might not an aggressive response to real unfairness be our noble side rather than our dark side? K. Well, I never had in mind to make much of the term 'perceived.' It seems you have always taken the position that 'reality' is what humans perceive it to be through their sensory and cognitive functions. Have you changed your position? Furthermore, since the infants are making a value judgment about fairness it follows that the judgment is based on their perception. But really, I did not mean to bring up a discourse on what 'reality' is or is not. My focus was on the aggressive response. I have argued on these flora that humans have an innate aggression moreso in males than females, and there has been stubborn opposition to my pov. That's why I made a snarky remark about the dark side. Misplace here I guess. Can we place a 'good' value on some applications of aggression? Oh fuk yes. I would think so. But whenever innate aggression results in spree killings by young men [see that thread] people back away from the possibility that the cause is an inherited trait run amok.

LookieNoNookie -> RE: The depraved paradise? (4/27/2013 3:17:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jewelcrafter A thought I had years ago was this. What if a person who really gets off of hurting and killing people actually decides he is going to get into Heaven to live his paradise, torture and murder. He lives a virtual saints life. He never kills, steals, lies; he helps the downtrodden and is a pillar of society, selflessly giving of himself his entire life. He dies. Now, by definition of being a good and decent person as stated above, he gets into Heaven. Does he get his violent and cruel utopia? Just a thought. Curious of others thoughts. Well, here's another one..... What if a person who really gets off on torturing little baby seals, suddenly has an aneurism, then, somehow survives, goes to McDonald's, eats heartily, has another aneurism, somehow survives that one as well, then, as he's leaving the drive thru, gets hit by a falling CNN satellite (doesn't have an aneurism...that'd be kind of stupid) and is crushed so completely that all you can discern is that there's some kind of mushy red stain there and what's left of a Prius, but then, some GENIUS arrives at EXACTLY that time, who invented some kind of diode and a processor which, when aimed at the messy gush....it makes the guy come back to life entirely and he yells at the top of his lungs "WHERE THE FUCK ARE MY FRENCH FRIES YOU COMMIE FUCKING BASTARDS????" and then just as he gets those defining words out, a 747's wings clip the back of his Prius and spins him around 308 times and he's soooooo totally fucking dizzy when he stops spinning that he gets out of his Prius and calls his Mom on his cell phone and says "Mom....you can't believe the fucking day I'm having...honest...it's a trip" and then his Mom says "son...are you in another McDonald's drive thru again where you've been squashed into gush and then some genius came along with some kind of new invention made out of diodes and a processor and made you whole again and then a 747 wing clipped you in the back of your Prius, spinning you 346 times again?", whereupon you respond "Mom...get a fucking clue....a 747's wing tip couldn't spin a Prius 346 times....that's just stupid!!! Geeeeeez....". Now, by definition of being a good and decent person as stated above, he gets into Heaven. Does he get his violent and cruel utopia? Just a thought. Curious of others thoughts.

littlewonder -> RE: The depraved paradise? (4/27/2013 8:01:36 PM)
imo, he would only get into heaven if he truly accepts God because to me Heaven is wanting to be with God and hell is deciding you want nothing to do with God. And imo, with the way he leads his life, I'm going to assume he's not a good person and therefore, most likely has no interest in being a part of God. You don't normally see violent people accepting and wanting to be with God. They may say they do but that doesn't match their actions. It's empty words. It's like when your child says "Yes mommy, I'll be a good girl. I love you" and then they do the exact same thing again that got them into trouble the first time. It's empty words. But ya know, mommy will still always accept you back in your arms usually and ya know, God may accept that person back as well. But you have to be willing to come back. God won't force you to come back if you don't want to.

Kirata -> RE: The depraved paradise? (4/28/2013 4:19:42 AM)
Okay, my take on it was wrong. quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML But whenever innate aggression results in spree killings by young men [see that thread] people back away from the possibility that the cause is an inherited trait run amok. I haven't been reading that thread, but I wouldn't attribute spree killings to aggression. Aggression is hot-blooded and rarely by itself seeks the death of its object (consider aggression among animals, for example). I view these killings as methodical cold-blooded acts of hatred, and once the facts are known the back-story seems invariably to bear that out. Hatred is the coward's revenge for being intimidated. ~George Bernard Shaw K.

vincentML -> RE: The depraved paradise? (4/28/2013 7:41:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata Okay, my take on it was wrong. quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML But whenever innate aggression results in spree killings by young men [see that thread] people back away from the possibility that the cause is an inherited trait run amok. I haven't been reading that thread, but I wouldn't attribute spree killings to aggression. Aggression is hot-blooded and rarely by itself seeks the death of its object (consider aggression among animals, for example). I view these killings as methodical cold-blooded acts of hatred, and once the facts are known the back-story seems invariably to bear that out. Hatred is the coward's revenge for being intimidated. ~George Bernard Shaw K. Okay. Fair points. But, why is it that acting upon hatred in such an extreme fashion seems to be exclusive to the male gender? Aggression is expressed in may forms: sports, business, war, dodge ball, etc . . . all of which are dominated by males who have agreed upon established rules. I suggest mass killing and serial killing are aggression without rules (except those formulated within the mind of the killer)

kdsub -> RE: The depraved paradise? (4/28/2013 8:46:37 AM)
Jimmy Carter said thoughts count the same as actions...at least in his religion...heaven help me... if perversion is a sin

littlewonder -> RE: The depraved paradise? (4/28/2013 10:22:12 AM)
for me it's not the thoughts, it's the words and actions that should match. Yeah, you should be thinking good things (I admit I cringe at some of the stuff I think and do all I can to not do so since I feel "unclean" when I think certain things) but to me, it's your words and actions that count.

Moonhead -> RE: The depraved paradise? (4/28/2013 12:01:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub Jimmy Carter said thoughts count the same as actions...at least in his religion... What, baptists? Maybe the Republicans should stop fawning and grovelling to every baptist with a chip on their shoulder about gay people if that's the case then: everybody knows that Carter was waaay to the left of the Kenyan Marxist in the white house at the moment...

LookieNoNookie -> RE: The depraved paradise? (4/29/2013 4:28:04 PM)
I'm ashamed of all of you. Every one of you were/was handed a great one liner....and you failed us, each and all. Depraved paradise, put up a kinky store....bop bop bop bop.....oh it only seems to go.....

cordeliasub -> RE: The depraved paradise? (4/29/2013 4:51:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: littlewonder There is no separation of free will and predetermination. My belief is that God allows us to choose what direction we will go but he will do what he can to steer us in the right direction in the way he wishes us to go so that we can be happy and healthy. Think of it like this. You have a teenage, mid twenties child. You tell them what you would like for them in life and you do your best to steer your child in that direction but in the end, your child will decide for him/herself which way they want to go because they want to feel independent. They want to rebel, they want to make a decision for their self. If the child chooses the way you know will make him/her successful, healthy, happy then great. You created an environment for them previously for all of this to happen, hoping and praying they take that path. You cleaned the path of debris, you bagged up all the garbage, you repaired all the broken pieces or threw them away if you couldn't. But if the child chooses a direction that's not quite as good or completely awful, then you are sad, you try to change their direction by giving them little hints, trying to still hold on to the child but the child is determined to ignore you. So you just tell yourself "I tried. I really wish she/he would have had enough faith in me to know what was better for him/her but it's their choice. I can't make every choice for them. There comes a time when I just have to let go and hope they find their way back". Now replace the parent and child with God and us. God creates paths...predetermination. God lets you go to make your own choices....free will. I really like this way of looking at that. Understand that I am only speaking for MY OWN faith and belief, not telling anyone what to do (just to try to head off the inevitable) I believe that my place in Heaven, as it were, is not dependent on what I do, but on what Christ DID for me. I choose to repent of sin (because the Bible I believe says all have sinned) and put my faith in Christ, and THAT is what makes me a "citizen of Heaven," as the preacher says. The Bible is pretty clear that those who have been "transformed" by His grace - who have turned to Him - will have a desire to follow His Word and be like Him (i.e. loving, forgiving, gentle, holy, blah blah). So someone who was truly going to Heaven would not have a desire to kill and maim. Yes, I know that sounds all very tied up and simple. But that is the best way I can explain what I believe in MY faith.

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