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The depraved paradise? - 4/9/2013 6:03:42 PM   
Jewelcrafter


Posts: 49
Joined: 10/26/2012
Status: offline 		A thought I had years ago was this. What if a person who really gets off of hurting and killing people actually decides he is going to get into Heaven to live his paradise, torture and murder. He lives a virtual saints life. He never kills, steals, lies; he helps the downtrodden and is a pillar of society, selflessly giving of himself his entire life. He dies.

Now, by definition of being a good and decent person as stated above, he gets into Heaven. Does he get his violent and cruel utopia?

Just a thought. Curious of others thoughts.
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RE: The depraved paradise? - 4/9/2013 6:14:34 PM   
Level


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Status: offline 		Not in any concept of paradise that I'm in favor of.

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RE: The depraved paradise? - 4/9/2013 6:19:38 PM   
Jewelcrafter


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Status: offline 		Nor I, but assume one person's paradise doesn't overlap with another. Like a joggers paradise wouldn't cross with a gamers.

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RE: The depraved paradise? - 4/9/2013 7:23:29 PM   
MrBukani


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Status: offline 		Yes its called HELL!

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RE: The depraved paradise? - 4/9/2013 7:26:40 PM   
Jewelcrafter


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Status: offline 		Sh, now there is an interesting fact. This person has done nothing in life to warrant an eternity in Hell. So, what exactly will he be doing there?

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RE: The depraved paradise? - 4/9/2013 7:34:47 PM   
muhly22222


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jewelcrafter

Sh, now there is an interesting fact. This person has done nothing in life to warrant an eternity in Hell. So, what exactly will he be doing there?


In theory, couldn't God make this person's heaven a lifetime of serving the devil's wishes? So rather than being tortured in hell, he'd be doing the torturing?

With that being said, many religions don't make the heaven/hell distinction based solely on good works. Most of the time, there's also a faith/worship requirement. A person has to believe in God and truly worship God while doing the good works that are demanded of him/her by that faith and worship (this is true in the Christian tradition, anyway).

Thus, if he was only engaging in those good works to spend a lifetime in "paradise," he wouldn't be worthy of that paradise.

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RE: The depraved paradise? - 4/9/2013 7:35:23 PM   
MrBukani


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Status: offline 		It's not just the deed that gets you there it's the mindset. He leads a pious life for a speck of 80 years to have an eternal murderspree?

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RE: The depraved paradise? - 4/9/2013 7:43:09 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani

It's not just the deed that gets you there it's the mindset. He leads a pious life for a speck of 80 years to have an eternal murderspree?


Interesting to see how you all make up the rules for entry . . . like you really know

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RE: The depraved paradise? - 4/9/2013 7:43:41 PM   
Jewelcrafter


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Status: offline 		Gah, doing this on a phone is annoying. Ultimately what muhly said is the way I decided, that he became a torturer. This was something that bothered me for a long time until I came to that conclusion. Remember, this is just a thought exercise.

Edit: Let me rephrase that, because that is a lie. It isn't the conclusion I decided on, just one of the theories I thought about..

< Message edited by Jewelcrafter -- 4/9/2013 7:52:18 PM >

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RE: The depraved paradise? - 4/9/2013 7:47:04 PM   
Jewelcrafter


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani

It's not just the deed that gets you there it's the mindset. He leads a pious life for a speck of 80 years to have an eternal murderspree?


Interesting to see how you all make up the rules for entry . . . like you really know


Its true, we are cause we don't know. I can't list any criteria because nobody would agree with everything. The whole point of this is to assume that whatever the criteria is this person meets it. What happens to him. There are more options than he goes to Hell.

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RE: The depraved paradise? - 4/9/2013 7:51:48 PM   
MrBukani


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani

It's not just the deed that gets you there it's the mindset. He leads a pious life for a speck of 80 years to have an eternal murderspree?


Interesting to see how you all make up the rules for entry . . . like you really know

I think it has more to do with common sense like math.
If you assume the book and God is real you cannot circumvent eternal justice.
His soul is damned for its wants. He does not redeem that. So burn baby.

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RE: The depraved paradise? - 4/9/2013 8:51:27 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani

It's not just the deed that gets you there it's the mindset. He leads a pious life for a speck of 80 years to have an eternal murderspree?


Interesting to see how you all make up the rules for entry . . . like you really know

I think it has more to do with common sense like math.
If you assume the book and God is real you cannot circumvent eternal justice.
His soul is damned for its wants. He does not redeem that. So burn baby.


Which raises yet another issue. Since the soul in this case was created with evil desires is not the creator culpable? If the soul incarnate having free will did not act upon the evil infused into the spiritual soul why is there any retribution to the spiritual soul? Surely, the human cannot be condemned for the evil implanted by God if the human's behavior was innocent.

Seems to me the Creator is the only one responsible for evil here.

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RE: The depraved paradise? - 4/9/2013 9:34:37 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jewelcrafter

A thought I had years ago was this. What if a person who really gets off of hurting and killing people actually decides he is going to get into Heaven to live his paradise, torture and murder. He lives a virtual saints life. He never kills, steals, lies; he helps the downtrodden and is a pillar of society, selflessly giving of himself his entire life. He dies.

Now, by definition of being a good and decent person as stated above, he gets into Heaven. Does he get his violent and cruel utopia?

Just a thought. Curious of others thoughts.

So he outsmarts God?

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RE: The depraved paradise? - 4/9/2013 9:40:20 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jewelcrafter

a person who really gets off of hurting and killing people...

Now, by definition of being a good and decent person...

I think there might be a problem with your definition.

K.

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RE: The depraved paradise? - 4/9/2013 9:45:55 PM   
FunCouple5280


Posts: 559
Joined: 10/30/2012
Status: offline 		If God is supreme and infallible then that would be a paradox...


The notion that God admits a person into heaven for merely 'acting' good is a human notion of equivalence. The act that would get you into heaven is to overcome your lust, not just so you don't commit the act but that you lose the desire....I have always been of the mind that God, if in existence, would not reward the fearful but only the pure of heart. Those who wish themselves to be good yet occasionally fail are more honorable than the trembling snitch at church who may never actually do bad but possesses a wicked heart. The good intentioned one is living their life and exercising their talents while trying to overcome life's temptations while the other is hiding and squandering life because they are to weak and fearful to face their demons.

This of course is all predicated on the notion there is an afterlife, and that everyone is granted access to the good or bad half.

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RE: The depraved paradise? - 4/9/2013 9:49:32 PM   
LanceHughes


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Status: offline 		Lust in your heart is a sin, so what does that make murder in your heart?

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RE: The depraved paradise? - 4/9/2013 10:48:29 PM   
BamaD


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Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jewelcrafter

Sh, now there is an interesting fact. This person has done nothing in life to warrant an eternity in Hell. So, what exactly will he be doing there?

His motive was to trick God into letting him torture people for eternity.

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RE: The depraved paradise? - 4/9/2013 11:16:35 PM   
DaddySatyr


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LanceHughes

Lust in your heart is a sin, so what does that make murder in your heart?


It makes you a commuter, during rush hour, on any of the roadways in NYC, L.A. Chicago, D.C. ...

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RE: The depraved paradise? - 4/10/2013 3:46:45 AM   
MrBukani


Posts: 1920
Joined: 4/18/2010
Status: offline 		Back to free will.
Who said the soul was created with evil desires?
Dont see that in the equasion of the OP
Or maybe you mean original sin?
Good like evil is just a form of exercise in general.
Souls ought to be born clean in case there is no reincarnation that is.
Of course the Creator carries responsibilty for evil but not alone. Since he created free will he also created evil as sort of a byproduct. In the end still there is only one responsible for all things. God of the Book created the fallen angels.
In a more logical sense you can see trauma or dire need can create evil in somebody who was good in origin

And to return how I make up the rules.
Have not many men done so before me? I didnt invent it, I just go with the given flows and logically try to deduct truth of matter.
I dont see either how this person is going to do murder if he is already dead.

When you form an hypothesis, you better make sure you define the perimeters right to the matter it involves.
For instance a viking has a very different notion of heaven and hell then a christian.

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RE: The depraved paradise? - 4/10/2013 4:10:33 AM   
Zonie63


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Joined: 4/25/2011
From: The Old Pueblo
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jewelcrafter

A thought I had years ago was this. What if a person who really gets off of hurting and killing people actually decides he is going to get into Heaven to live his paradise, torture and murder. He lives a virtual saints life. He never kills, steals, lies; he helps the downtrodden and is a pillar of society, selflessly giving of himself his entire life. He dies.

Now, by definition of being a good and decent person as stated above, he gets into Heaven. Does he get his violent and cruel utopia?

Just a thought. Curious of others thoughts.


While I don't actually know if such a place called "Heaven" exists (nor do I know the entry requirements, just like everyone else doesn't know), I think it's conceivable that whatever was tied to one's earthly body may also wither away, and this may include carnal/physical desires. I don't know this for a fact, but it may be that one doesn't feel physical pleasure or pain as a spiritual being, thus whatever it is that made us "get off" in life may be completely alien to us in the afterlife.

For some reason, I'm reminded of an episode of The Twilight Zone where an armed robber gets shot and killed, gets met by an "angel" (played by Sebastian Cabot) and is taken to a place he thinks is "heaven." It's just what he always wanted - luxury suite at a hotel, gambling, nightclubs, girls. He is told that he is in his own private domain, so all the people he meets are just "props" - not real people. He is given everything he always wanted in life, but after several days, he gets bored and restless. He can't take it anymore, because there's no challenge and he's bored to death from winning all the time. Finally, he says, "If this is heaven, I would have rather gone to the other place," at which point he is informed that he IS in the other place.

So, maybe it might be something like that. You may get exactly what your heart desires and create your own domain in the afterlife. Whether it turns out to be "heaven" or "hell" is up to the individual. If the individual in question wants a violent and cruel utopia in the afterlife, he may very get it, but that's ALL he'll get for all eternity. It may seem kind of empty after a while.

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