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ORIGINAL: Rule

But besides those relative 'evils' there also is absolute evil - and I judge that that ball is entirely in their court.

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ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh

punishment is a whole big part of justice & deterence against injustice tho some folks naively thunk otherwise.

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ORIGINAL: NotSoNormalGuy

To the original topic - the only thing that bothers me about this terrorist's age is that he will probably see another birthday or two. I, personally, would be delighted if he didn't make 20.
Enigma

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ORIGINAL: Aswad

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ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh
punishment is a whole big part of justice & deterence against injustice tho some folks naively thunk otherwise.

The naïveté lies in conflating deterrence, justice, injustice, punishment, vengeance and other entities.

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Punishment is a leaf node in any rational tree of public management, not a branch.

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ORIGINAL: Politesub53
Peon, the van helping the wounded gets attacked around the nine minute mark.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newsvideo/7558741/US-military-video-showing-2007-Apache-attack-on-Iraqi-civilians-posted-on-YouTube-Full-video.html

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ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh

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ORIGINAL: Aswad

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ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh
punishment is a whole big part of justice & deterence against injustice tho some folks naively thunk otherwise.

The naïveté lies in conflating deterrence, justice, injustice, punishment, vengeance and other entities.

thats just talking jive dude & vengence is a different thang to punishment. punishment in justice needs to be balanced & impartial.

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ORIGINAL: Rule

I am sorry, Aswad, but all of that simply is not true for most people.

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ORIGINAL: Aswad

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ORIGINAL: Rule
I am sorry, Aswad, but all of that simply is not true for most people.

Then "most people" should effin' step back and leave it to the same folks that dragged them kicking and screaming out of the Stone Age.

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ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh

thats just talking jive dude & vengence is a different thang to punishment. punishment in justice needs to be balanced & impartial.

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nah its at least a big branch if not tha trunk.

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That's the sort of attitude the quote I mentioned earlier was about. Nietzsche, who isn't exactly a bleeding heart sort of fellow, feels that people who consider punishment the trunk of the tree of public management are of poor stock, which I've tried to be more polite and nuanced about. Believe it or not, I'm both less verbose and more explicatorial than him.

Rational public management is evidence based. The evidence is clear that a punishment centric approach is suboptimal, and the evidence is getting fairly solid that punishment is also not a very cost effective deterrent. The role of a State in regard to law is precisely rational public management (which, incidentally, is why I consider it important for principled aspects- how the State relates to a Citizen and vice versa- to be codified in a manner that strongly restricts the solution domain the State may employ), and this excludes indulging the masses in their own worst impulses (they can do so on their own; it's just not the job of the State).

Why do we try to understand, if not to change? And where does change begin, if not in ourselves?

«When might turns to Grace and reveals itself, such revelation I call beauty. And from none do I more desire righteous beauty than from you, the masters. Let your goodness be your final discipline. All malice do I ascribe to you, therefore I want good from you. Truly, I've often laughed at those that think themselves good, merely because they have no claws.» [my translation, from the German]

I'm not laughing, even if the pawing doesn't leave any marks.

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ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh

yup tha accidental(?) discovery of melding copper & tin made a big ole difference.

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ORIGINAL: Rule

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ORIGINAL: Aswad
Guess what, we're human beings. We've gone from hunting and gathering, cowering from the elements and succumbing to illness and injury, to having sprawling cities of millions, chemically synthesizing fertilizers to supply food that nature doesn't produce for us, treating inborn conditions, transplanting organs, altering our own genes, living in buildings that can withstand earthquakes, setting our feet on the Moon, splitting the atom and probing the very nature of reality itself.

That, right there, is a testament to what makes us the apex predator:

We make sense of our environment, and then we rearrange it into what we want it to be, dammit!

I am sorry, Aswad, but all of that simply is not true for most people. Granted that every being with some kind of nervous system tries to make sense of its environment, but it always does so within the limits that such a nervous system allows. Even I, a low IQ supergenius, have my limits.

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ORIGINAL: Aswad
Stop trying to throw that out over simplistic notions of good and evil. If you can't make sense of it, then frickin' step back and let those of us that can, do, instead of aggravating the problem with an emotional refusal to understand that these are regular people we're dealing with, not much different from you and I.

Those are bold assertments.

But the crux of the matter is of course is 'how much' are they 'not much different from you and I'?

Let me first establish that my mind is nothing like yours: our psychologies differ like day and night. So if they are not much different from you, then they are extremely different from me - and vice versa.

Again: how much is 'not much'? We will not know until we scan their brain activity and compare it with yours. And what about the oxygen consumption of their brain compared with yours? Is it equal? Even if corrected for body mass? What if it differs say half a percent?

You may very well be correct that there is not much difference between them and you - but it is a difference that counts.

What will you do when your girlfriend falls in love with someone else and gets pregnant by him? Will you cut her throat? Burn her to death? Bury her alive? Drown her? Throw stones at her until she dies? Since you claim that there is not much difference between them and you, may I then assume that your answer to all those questions is 'Yes, I will'?

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ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
I begin to wonder what the point is, Aswad, seriously. There's always going to be a contingent here that'll carry on intimating, as heavily as it takes to shut up their opponents, that anyone whose 'analysis' isn't based solidly on a "catch 'em, punish 'em, job done and that'll teach 'em" theme is just a liberal, USA-hating pansy.

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The Islamist terror issue facing the USA now is far worse than anything the UK had to face with the Irish paramilitaries - we're not just talking of different islands, though with a majorly-shared history, culture, religion and language; we're talking of enemies that might as well come from different planets entirely. And the hatred involved makes the IRA's antipathy towards their Brit oppressors look almost finger-wagging-tut-tut by comparison.

Well, no doubt this is yet more evidence of my supposed view that Americans are a bunch of stupid yee-hah cowboys. But fuck it. The truth is that I would just suggest that the USA not follow the same route with their current terrorist threat as the UK did for decades on end with the Irish Republicans. It was miserable for all of us. I would not recommend it.

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ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

I begin to wonder what the point is, Aswad, seriously.

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The truth is that I would just suggest that the USA not follow the same route with their current terrorist threat as the UK did for decades on end with the Irish Republicans. It was miserable for all of us. I would not recommend it.

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ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh

[...] by assuming tha US should compromise just like tha uk did wit tha republicans.

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ORIGINAL: Aswad

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ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh
yup tha accidental(?) discovery of melding copper & tin made a big ole difference.

Everything is lucky/unlucky, accidental/serendipituous or blessing/magic/curse to the people to whom shit happens all the time for no discernible reason, and to the people that can't make heads or tails of the world around them. To the rest of us, the world makes sense, most of the time, and when it doesn't, we can usually figure out what we've missed and it starts making sense again.

People probably "accidentally" "discovered" copper and tin a million times.

Then someone discovered it.

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ORIGINAL: Politesub53

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ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh

i dont like drones much either but thats tha big ole moral divide between unintended consequences & deliberate ones that ya seem hell bent on erasing.

I have a major problem with the unintended consequences stance. Firing a missilee at a suspect in a car and hitting the passenger could be construed as unintended. Firing a missile at those going to help the wounded, as demonstrated in Iraq by the helicopter attack video posted on here, is entirely intended.

Killing the 16 year old son of a terrorist suspect, again posted in here, was also fully intended. One killing fully justified in my book, even if he was American, the other wasn`t. Lets not start suggesting otherwise.

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ORIGINAL: Marini

I like this attempt at giving a compliment, can you both extend the olive branch now, and shake hands?

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I think you both have more in common than you realize.

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I think if you ever meet, you would like each other.

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I like to see people agree to disagree, and than discuss issues in a civil manner.

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ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

In NW Pakistan, current US policy includes the use of 'double-tap' missile attacks.

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ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

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ORIGINAL: Rule

But besides those relative 'evils' there also is absolute evil - and I judge that that ball is entirely in their court.

And they'd judge the ball is in our court, of course . . . .

And so it goes on.