Justice in Boston (Full Version)

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vincentML -> Justice in Boston (4/20/2013 10:16:59 AM)

An American citizen accused of murder is entitled to a criminal trial before a jury of civilians. I offer the Aurora mass killer as an example. Also Tim McVeigh. The number of people killed and the motives of the alleged killer do not alter the Constitutional requirement for a fair trial in criminal court. Any talk of enemy combatent status is nonsense.

Your thoughts? Rebuttals?




DarkSteven -> RE: Justice in Boston (4/20/2013 10:32:07 AM)

They were not affiliated with AQ or any other terrorist organization formally. So he's of course entitled to a fair trial. That said, with the evidence, I can't see anything except an insanity plea being a valid defense.




TheHeretic -> RE: Justice in Boston (4/20/2013 11:18:05 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Your thoughts?



That you know you'd better invent a strawman, on a whole new thread, because you said something really dumb on another one?

Of course this kid needs to come under civilian jurisdiction and justice, once we have established that this attack is over.





kdsub -> RE: Justice in Boston (4/20/2013 11:19:14 AM)

I agree




TheHeretic -> RE: Justice in Boston (4/20/2013 11:21:33 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

They were not affiliated with AQ or any other terrorist organization formally.



That's not something that is known, Steve. The elder brother was out of the country for half a year, without any knowledge of what he was doing, or who he was interacting with.




kdsub -> RE: Justice in Boston (4/20/2013 11:21:50 AM)

quote:

They were not affiliated with AQ or any other terrorist organization formally


We don't know this for sure yet...but just me... even if he is affiliated with a terrorists group he is still entitled to a trail as any American citizen.

Butch




Moonhead -> RE: Justice in Boston (4/20/2013 11:40:35 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

They were not affiliated with AQ or any other terrorist organization formally. So he's of course entitled to a fair trial. That said, with the evidence, I can't see anything except an insanity plea being a valid defense.

Assuming he lives to stand trial: there might be a bit of liberal whining if he croaks before that happens, I suspect.




vincentML -> RE: Justice in Boston (4/20/2013 12:03:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Your thoughts?



That you know you'd better invent a strawman, on a whole new thread, because you said something really dumb on another one?

Of course this kid needs to come under civilian jurisdiction and justice, once we have established that this attack is over.



What did I say elsewhere that was dumb? What strawman do you preceive?




vincentML -> RE: Justice in Boston (4/20/2013 12:05:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

They were not affiliated with AQ or any other terrorist organization formally. So he's of course entitled to a fair trial. That said, with the evidence, I can't see anything except an insanity plea being a valid defense.

If he were so affiliated would the charge not then be treason? Article 3 of the Constitution still holds that as a civilian offense.




jlf1961 -> RE: Justice in Boston (4/20/2013 2:23:26 PM)

Here is Republican justice concerning the boston marathon bombings.

quote:

GRAHAM: Boston proves "homeland battlefield," Constitution obsolete

“It’s a battlefield because the terrorists think it is.” Referring to Boston, he observed, “Here is what we’re up against,” and added, “It sure would be nice to have a drone up there [to track the suspect.]” He also slammed the president’s policy of “leading from behind and criminalizing war.”

On Twitter, Graham suggested the Obama administration arbitrarily toss the court system and Constitution for “intelligence gathering purposes.” According to Graham, accused bomber Dzhokhar Tsarnaev, 19, should be held as an enemy combatant. This legal status has been mostly reserved for al Qaeda captured abroad or foreigners, such as those held without charge for the last decade in Guantanamo Bay’s military facility.

Senator Graham is a known proponent of military-style detention for American suspects merely accused of terrorism. During debates regarding indefinite detainment provisions in 2011, which effectively invalidated the Bill of Rights, he notoriously bellowed that Americans accused of a terrorist-related crime should be denied Due Process. “When they say I want a lawyer you say, “Shut up! You don’t get a lawyer”.

Read more: Source





quote:

Senator Says Boston Attack Should Factor in Immigration Debate

WASHINGTON — A senior Republican senator said Friday that the approaching political debate about an immigration overhaul should take into account the revelation that the suspects in the Boston Marathon bombing had apparently emigrated to the United States from Kyrgyzstan.


After a feeding, Rosemary Martell carried Angie Martinez into a Senate hearing on immigration.

Senator Charles E. Grassley of Iowa, the most senior Republican on the Senate Judiciary Committee, opened a hearing on immigration legislation by stressing the issue’s importance “particularly in light of all that’s happening in Massachusetts right now and over the last week.”

“Given the events of this week, it’s important for us to understand the gaps and loopholes in our immigration system,” Mr. Grassley said in his opening statement. “While we don’t yet know the immigration status of people who have terrorized the communities in Massachusetts, when we find out, it will help shed light on the weaknesses of our system.”

Source


quote:

After Boston, we should put Muslims under surveillance, says Rep. King

President Obama cautioned the nation not to rush to judgment about the Boston Marathon bombers. But that’s not stopping Republican Rep. Peter King.

King, who chairs the House subcommittee on Counterterrorism and Intelligence, is urging authorities to beef up their surveillance of Muslims in the U.S. following Friday night’s arrest of bombing suspect Dzhokhar Tsarnaev.

Police must “realize that the threat is coming from the Muslim community and increase surveillance there,” the New York lawmaker told National Review.

King—who spearheaded controversial hearings on the radicalization of Muslim-Americans in 2011—also told CNN that “we can’t be politically correct. I think we have to see, has radicalization extended into the Chechen community?”

Source



Alright, Graham is hinting that the Constitution needs a bit of refining, since he is clearly wanting US troops to operate inside the US. Another Republican thinks that the immigration process should be made tighter, seeing as how the focus for Republicans is Muslims, I wonder if he means just not let Muslims in the country?

Finally, Republican King wants Muslims in the US put under surveillance. That would be real easy if we just made them carry biometric ID's that were scanned at every place that they go.

I know these three dont speak for the whole party, but someone needs to get them to tone it down, sounds like McCarthy has been resurrected.




muhly22222 -> RE: Justice in Boston (4/20/2013 2:38:05 PM)

FR

An American citizen who committed a crime on American soil? This should be easy.

He is absolutely entitled to every single Constitutional protection that any other criminal defendant (from misdemeanor assault or OVI all the way up to, well...terrorism) gets. It doesn't matter if he was affiliated with any terrorist organization. Any possibility of suspending any part of the Constitution because of the nature of his crime is simply unacceptable.




LizDeluxe -> RE: Justice in Boston (4/20/2013 2:57:06 PM)

Agreed. We are a nation of laws and due process. The bombings in Boston were deplorable and the person(s) responsible should rot in jail for the rest of their life but only after a fair trial. When you see the way law enforcement is handling this matter you can more clearly understand why the 2nd amendment is so very important to those of us who fight to retain those rights. This time its this guy's constitutional rights. The next time it may be yours.




vincentML -> RE: Justice in Boston (4/20/2013 3:46:43 PM)

FR

It was suggested above and elsewhere that primacy should be given to first extracting information from the kid to be sure there were no other accomplices or other attacks in the works.

Several avenues have been suggested:

Widely discussed is to question him without offering him Miranda. The Supreme Court has opined that in the case of imminent danger it is is okay to question a suspect without Miranda. The ACLU is crying foul.

It was also suggested, hopefully in jest, that he be tortured to secure the information.

Some Senators have cried out to have him declared an enemy combatant and turned over for Military trial.

Elsewhere, it was suggested he be turned over to the military temporarily. Not sure the advantage of that.

Do any of these alternatives appeal to you?

I do not understand how an American citizen committing a crime on home soil can be declared an enemy combatant. Is there some enabling law? I thought treason would cover that.




tj444 -> RE: Justice in Boston (4/20/2013 4:18:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

FR

It was suggested above and elsewhere that primacy should be given to first extracting information from the kid to be sure there were no other accomplices or other attacks in the works.

I dont know about the effectiveness, efficiency of torture or the honesty of any answers from using that method.. I think if the outspoken Uncle & other similar minded family members (not the delusional aunt tho) that have been shamed by his actions, if they would talk to him and get him to open up about his motives and any co-conspirators, etc, in an attempt to make up in a small way for it, that would be imo the fastest and hopefully get the most honest answers(???).. maybe some of his friends also? I think he was under pressure by his brother to do what he did so if that is correct then he seems vulnerable to that kinda family pressure much easier.. and more palitable to the public (both American and worldwide).. I dont think it could hurt any, at any rate.. jmo.. since you asked..

eta- another option would be to offer him a deal but that would be a last resort kinda thing.. its hard for the public tho, to accept that, but it has been done in the past with serial killers (like the Green River POS)..




Rule -> RE: Justice in Boston (4/20/2013 5:37:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444
I think if the outspoken Uncle & other similar minded family members (not the delusional aunt tho) that have been shamed by his actions, if they would talk to him and get him to open up about his motives and any co-conspirators, etc, in an attempt to make up in a small way for it, that would be imo the fastest and hopefully get the most honest answers(???).. maybe some of his friends also?

Those are good suggestions.




vincentML -> RE: Justice in Boston (4/20/2013 6:10:23 PM)

quote:

eta- another option would be to offer him a deal but that would be a last resort kinda thing.. its hard for the public tho, to accept that, but it has been done in the past with serial killers (like the Green River POS)..

i think the immorality of torture is a greater issue than the question of its efficacy.

I think you are probably right. A plea bargain will be struck. Life in a Federal SuperMax is not a comfortable deal but it may be the best he will get.




DomKen -> RE: Justice in Boston (4/20/2013 6:24:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
i think the immorality of torture is a greater issue than the question of its efficacy.

It also doesn't work so it is beyond pointless.




animaltrainer69 -> RE: Justice in Boston (4/20/2013 6:30:08 PM)

@Domken have you ever really been tortured.




thompsonx -> RE: Justice in Boston (4/20/2013 6:38:09 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

They were not affiliated with AQ or any other terrorist organization formally.

know where he was is hardly evidence that he was up to no good...you do have a rather paranoid imagination.

That's not something that is known, Steve. The elder brother was out of the country for half a year, without any knowledge of what he was doing, or who he was interacting with.


The fact that you do not know where he was does not mean he was up to no good....you do have a rather paranoid imagination.




thompsonx -> RE: Justice in Boston (4/20/2013 6:40:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: animaltrainer69

@Domken have you ever really been tortured.


Have you?




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