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RE: Boston: Enough is Enough! - 4/23/2013 10:45:10 AM   
Moonhead


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Status: offline 		It could actually start fucking monitoring them for a start. That'd obviously be a big change right there...

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RE: Boston: Enough is Enough! - 4/23/2013 11:25:38 AM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

How would you go about finding every facility in the country that might be handling enough volatile material to require over sight by the DHS? Self reporting certainly seems like the best first step.

except that self-reporting doesnt always happen... now, is anyone asking themselves how many other rogue fertilizer plants are out there that DHS doesnt know about?? hmmmm

I would expect some fail-safes in place to find the non-self-reporters.. like how did other agencies know this plant existed and had partial safety inspections? why dont these agencies talk to each other.. imo that would be a good second step when the first step fails..

Hindsight is 20/20. I'm pretty sure how DHS finds the facilities it monitors wil change after this.

Well,.. I dont think that is much solace for half the town thats missing & those that lived in what is now a crater.. You seem to have more faith in DHS than I do.. umm.. you dont happen to work for DHS, do you???


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RE: Boston: Enough is Enough! - 4/23/2013 11:30:50 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
It could actually start fucking monitoring them for a start. That'd obviously be a big change right there...


No, no, no. We need to add more regulations before we start enforcing the ones we have now, silly.


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RE: Boston: Enough is Enough! - 4/23/2013 11:56:36 AM   
DomKen


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From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

How would you go about finding every facility in the country that might be handling enough volatile material to require over sight by the DHS? Self reporting certainly seems like the best first step.

except that self-reporting doesnt always happen... now, is anyone asking themselves how many other rogue fertilizer plants are out there that DHS doesnt know about?? hmmmm

I would expect some fail-safes in place to find the non-self-reporters.. like how did other agencies know this plant existed and had partial safety inspections? why dont these agencies talk to each other.. imo that would be a good second step when the first step fails..

Hindsight is 20/20. I'm pretty sure how DHS finds the facilities it monitors wil change after this.

Well,.. I dont think that is much solace for half the town thats missing & those that lived in what is now a crater.. You seem to have more faith in DHS than I do.. umm.. you dont happen to work for DHS, do you???


I don't have faith in anything.

But like I said how would you without the facilities themselves telling you find the ones DHS is supposed to monitor? It's a very big country and there are lots and lots of industrial plants of many different sorts.

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RE: Boston: Enough is Enough! - 4/23/2013 11:59:09 AM   
FunCouple5280


Posts: 559
Joined: 10/30/2012
Status: offline 		How?

Ask the IRS, they are pretty good at putting probes up people's asses. They are the one group that, eventually, seems to get their man in this country. Probably the most effective and efficient agency in the whole damn system.

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RE: Boston: Enough is Enough! - 4/23/2013 12:15:00 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FunCouple5280

How?

Ask the IRS, they are pretty good at putting probes up people's asses. They are the one group that, eventually, seems to get their man in this country. Probably the most effective and efficient agency in the whole damn system.

The IRS might be able to say this list of businesses are engaged in work that might qualify but since the law requires a certain amount of specific volatiles be on site before DHS can get involved it wouldn't be the end of the matter.

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RE: Boston: Enough is Enough! - 4/23/2013 2:52:26 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FunCouple5280

Tommy I am only arguing against the common knee jerk that you have to blame someone and crucify them.



When someone starts their post by trying to demean the the person they are responding to by demeaning their name it is pretty instructive as to the quality of the intelligence that goes into the rest of the post.

quote:

If you there is a good reason for it, get out the hammer and nails, I am fine with that, but wait for the facts.

The facts have been quoted to you and they prove that the company in question is indictable for criminal negligent homicide.


quote:

But yes there are accidents. Let us look at the NTSB example. A part fails due to a microscopic imperfection in a part. Now that part met all standards and testing protocals. But after 30,000hrs of use it suddenly failed and caused the crash. That incident, while it has a casue, could not have been forseen and is therefore an accident.


But it never happened except in your mind. When you can produce some evidence to back up your moronic statement about this mythical part that never existed please feel free to get back to us./

quote:

Once the cause is determined, if nothing is done to fix it, it then ceases to be 'accidents' and becomes a case of neglegence..... They investigate to determine whether or not it was an accident, and whether or not the incident can be avoided in the process.



Perhaps you could post up that part of the mission statement fo the ntsb...I have never read that particular interpretation.

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RE: Boston: Enough is Enough! - 4/23/2013 2:58:00 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri



Do you have any proof that the Exxon/BP spills or that the W TX plant explosion wasn't an accident? Were they intentional?


You were part of the thread concerning the bp oil spill, for you to post up such disingenuous bullshit speaks directly to your creditability. The evidence that the w.tx. explosion was criminal negligence has been posted and if you could debunk it you would...instead you continue to "pimp" for the scum who care not about the lives of their employees.


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RE: Boston: Enough is Enough! - 4/23/2013 3:01:52 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FunCouple5280

How?

Ask the IRS, they are pretty good at putting probes up people's asses. They are the one group that, eventually, seems to get their man in this country. Probably the most effective and efficient agency in the whole damn system.



Any validation for this moronic post?...You might want to look at how the church of scientology butt fucked the irs without lube. Even the fbi is smarter than the irs and the fbi aint shit.

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RE: Boston: Enough is Enough! - 4/23/2013 3:22:59 PM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
But like I said how would you without the facilities themselves telling you find the ones DHS is supposed to monitor? It's a very big country and there are lots and lots of industrial plants of many different sorts.

well.. how would potential customers (or terrorists?) find fertilizer plants & companies? how would they find this company? hmmm, maybe the yellow pages?.. the plant was called the "West Fertilizer Co.".. you would think that DHS would know how to google "fertilizer" and make sure all the plants, etc were accounted for on their lists.. You would think since they had been cited with violations a few times that DHS would also get a copy of those violations.. since fertilizer is an ingredient of certain WMD.. not only that, the plant itself could be a terrorist target... There are industry codes and business directories that I would expect list them under the fertilizer plant business.. its not like they sprouted up yesterday, they have been in business for 30+ years.. and too, purchasers of fertilizer (meaning this company's customers) are also required to register with DHS.. why arent they also required to give dhs a list of which companies they are buying fertilizer from? If I understand this registration law correctly, it is only been a law for a couple of years (2011? 2008?).. how exactly did DHS expect to inform all the fertilizer sellers & buyers of the requirement to register if they didnt have a list to send the directives out to? But even if they had registered with DHS, there is no guarantee that DHS would ever have even bothered to visit their plant,.. especially since the other agency seemed pretty lax in checking up on them.. btw, I am not blaming DHS solely, the other agency should have clamped down on them & had the teeth to do it..

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RE: Boston: Enough is Enough! - 4/23/2013 5:25:49 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
From my point of view, terrorism only strikes resolve into people. Whenever we have had bombings here in the UK, people just got on with life in order not to let terrorist scum win.


Does your media focus on these events as heavily as the US media does? To a certain degree, its easier to get on with life if its not broadcast everywhere 24/7 and analyzed to death.. I actually get more news here first from the forums than I do from other outlets.. thats is how I learned of the bombing in the first place, then seen it online (usually yahoo) and on tv (when I turned it on).. I try to limit the "news" I get cuz many times its just too much.. during the manhunt, programs were cancelled due to "breaking news" on so many channels.. ugh..


Yes, Boston took centre stage for most of last week here, except for Maggie Thatchers funeral. On the day of the bombing, as with 9/11 and events in Norway there was little else made the news.

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RE: Boston: Enough is Enough! - 4/23/2013 5:28:24 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

So, the intention of the industrial plant was to explode causing death and damages?



No, the intention was to make money by any means possible, including cutting costs and therefore corners, despite the high risks involved.

And that my friend, is indeed criminal.

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RE: Boston: Enough is Enough! - 4/23/2013 5:35:21 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
So, the intention of the industrial plant was to explode causing death and damages?

No, the intention was to make money by any means possible, including cutting costs and therefore corners, despite the high risks involved.
And that my friend, is indeed criminal.


PS, we don't disagree that the fertilizer company acted criminally. They took risks. The lost. They should face the consequences for taking the risks they took.

But, that doesn't put it on the same level as the intentional setting of bombs as in Boston.


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Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Boston: Enough is Enough! - 4/24/2013 3:43:47 AM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
PS, we don't disagree that the fertilizer company acted criminally. They took risks. The lost. They should face the consequences for taking the risks they took.

But, that doesn't put it on the same level as the intentional setting of bombs as in Boston.



Indeed it does. If anything its worse as they put money before human life and not misguided idealism.

Like the two brothers, those that cut corners couldnt care less who was injured, who died, or what consequences it had for those left behind.

Thankfully we are catching up in the UK and treating those who kill by drink driving or dangerous driving as criminals and not just "unlucky"


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RE: Boston: Enough is Enough! - 4/24/2013 6:09:35 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

that doesn't put it on the same level as the intentional setting of bombs as in Boston.

Indeed it does. If anything its worse as they put money before human life and not misguided idealism.

Well then the next time somebody shoots an abortion doctor, I guess we better call it "misguided idealism."

K.

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RE: Boston: Enough is Enough! - 4/24/2013 6:57:51 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
PS, we don't disagree that the fertilizer company acted criminally. They took risks. The lost. They should face the consequences for taking the risks they took.
But, that doesn't put it on the same level as the intentional setting of bombs as in Boston.

Indeed it does. If anything its worse as they put money before human life and not misguided idealism.
Like the two brothers, those that cut corners couldnt care less who was injured, who died, or what consequences it had for those left behind.
Thankfully we are catching up in the UK and treating those who kill by drink driving or dangerous driving as criminals and not just "unlucky"


It still doesn't. The management at the fertilizer company, I'm assuming, didn't want stuff to blow up, damage to happen and people to die. But, that is precisely what the Boston Bombers wanted. The fertilizer company has been in business for over 3 decades, right? How many massive explosions have they had there? Sure seems like one. When you blow your business up, you tend to not have much in the way of profits, do you? I would contend that they didn't want their shit to blow up, cause damage and kill people.

We agree the didn't act in compliance with the law, and that they didn't act in the safest manner possible. But, their intentions were definitely not the same as those of the bombers.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

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Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Boston: Enough is Enough! - 4/24/2013 7:01:25 AM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		Well, the pre-penitent terrorists then.   They didn't want it you say, but did nothing to prevent it, in fact took increased risks in the opposite direction of their 'wants' for skinning that buck.

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RE: Boston: Enough is Enough! - 4/24/2013 7:45:08 AM   
tweakabelle


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Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline 		At one level, the motivation of the factory managers is arguably worse than that of the Boston thugs. Despite the appalling nature of their crimes, the Boston thugs sought no material gain from their actions. In fact they put their lives on the line for something in which they had, in material terms, little to gain - though it could be argued that they expected their pay off in the next life, not this one.

OTOH the factory managers were motivated, we all seem to agree, to inflate the bottom line of their businesses - and no doubt expected enhanced remuneration and/or bonuses for their negligence. IOW they were motivated by selfishness greed and probably ambition too. They were in it for what they could get out of it.

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RE: Boston: Enough is Enough! - 4/24/2013 7:56:27 AM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
the Boston thugs sought no material gain from their actions. In fact they put their lives on the line for something in which they had, in material terms, little to gain - though it could be argued that they expected their pay off in the next life, not this one.

They were quite the idealists...

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
OTOH the factory managers were motivated, we all seem to agree, to inflate the bottom line of their businesses - and no doubt expected enhanced remuneration and/or bonuses for their negligence. IOW they were motivated by selfishness greed and probably ambition too. They were in it for what they could get out of it.

Let's scan the brains of these factory managers!

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RE: Boston: Enough is Enough! - 4/24/2013 8:19:11 AM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri


We agree the didn't act in compliance with the law, and that they didn't act in the safest manner possible. But, their intentions were definitely not the same as those of the bombers.


A drunk who gets behind the wheel of a car doesn't act in compliance with the law and doesn't act in the safest manner possible. His intentions are definitely not the same as the bombers. (look familiar?)

When a drunk kills a family in spite of his so-called 'good intentions', he should still be charged with as many counts of criminal homicide and reckless endangerment as there were people involved.

Do you feel it is reasonable that the owners/managers of the factory should also be held as culpable?

Greed and stupidity lead to death in both instances.

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