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RE: Boston: Enough is Enough! - 4/24/2013 8:55:39 AM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
OTOH the factory managers were motivated, we all seem to agree, to inflate the bottom line of their businesses - and no doubt expected enhanced remuneration and/or bonuses for their negligence.

I wonder if they made it out alive or if they (& their families?) got blown up too..

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Profile   Post #: 81
RE: Boston: Enough is Enough! - 4/24/2013 8:58:56 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
We agree the didn't act in compliance with the law, and that they didn't act in the safest manner possible. But, their intentions were definitely not the same as those of the bombers.

A drunk who gets behind the wheel of a car doesn't act in compliance with the law and doesn't act in the safest manner possible. His intentions are definitely not the same as the bombers. (look familiar?)
When a drunk kills a family in spite of his so-called 'good intentions', he should still be charged with as many counts of criminal homicide and reckless endangerment as there were people involved.
Do you feel it is reasonable that the owners/managers of the factory should also be held as culpable?
Greed and stupidity lead to death in both instances.


Um, what's going on here? Does anyone read what I write or just skim for shit to question?

Post#73:
    quote:

    PS, we don't disagree that the fertilizer company acted criminally. They took risks. The lost. They should face the consequences for taking the risks they took.
    But, that doesn't put it on the same level as the intentional setting of bombs as in Boston.


What part of face the consequences of the risks they took means I don't want them held responsible?

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What I support:

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Profile   Post #: 82
RE: Boston: Enough is Enough! - 4/24/2013 9:12:45 AM   
RacerJim


Posts: 1583
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		And now we know the two Islamic terrorist brothers who set off the bombs in Boston and their parents had been on welfare.

[from the Boston Herald]
"Marathon bombings mastermind Tamerlan Tsarnaev was living on taxpayer-funded state welfare benefits even as he was delving deep into the world of radical anti-American Islamism, the Herald has learned.

State officials confirmed last night that Tsarnaev, slain in a raging gun battle with police last Friday, was receiving benefits along with his wife, Katherine Russell Tsarnaev, and their 3-year-old daughter. The state’s Executive Office of Health and Human Services said those benefits ended in 2012 when the couple stopped meeting income eligibility limits. Russell Tsarnaev’s attorney has claimed Katherine — who had converted to Islam — was working up to 80 hours a week as a home health aide while Tsarnaev stayed at home.

In addition, both of Tsarnaev’s parents received benefits, and accused brother bombers Dzhokhar and Tamerlan were recipients through their parents when they were younger, according to the state."

http://bostonherald.com/news_opinion/local_coverage/2013/04/tamerlan_tsarnaev_got_mass_welfare_benefits

America! What a country!

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 83
RE: Boston: Enough is Enough! - 4/24/2013 9:22:05 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Romney the welfare queen, well, its always the republicans behind this sort of ineptitude, isn't it?

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Profile   Post #: 84
RE: Boston: Enough is Enough! - 4/24/2013 9:58:22 AM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		yep alll welfare recipients are wanna be bombers, obvs

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Profile   Post #: 85
RE: Boston: Enough is Enough! - 4/24/2013 10:05:34 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic
yep alll welfare recipients are wanna be bombers, obvs


Wow. I'm surprised you take that stance, Lucy. I didn't think you had a dim a view on welfare recipients.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

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Profile   Post #: 86
RE: Boston: Enough is Enough! - 4/24/2013 11:53:52 AM   
tj444


Posts: 7574
Joined: 3/7/2010
Status: offline 		Apparently the mother was charged with shoplifting $1,600 worth of clothes from Lord & Taylor and never appeared for the trial.. so I sorta doubt she is coming back to the US and risk being arrested for failure to appear.. No one so far has claimed the older sons body either..

oddly enough it was Lord & Taylor cameras that caught her "innocent set-up angel boys" dropping their bomb backpacks as they ran away..

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Profile   Post #: 87
RE: Boston: Enough is Enough! - 4/24/2013 3:53:49 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri


We agree the didn't act in compliance with the law, and that they didn't act in the safest manner possible. But, their intentions were definitely not the same as those of the bombers.


A drunk who gets behind the wheel of a car doesn't act in compliance with the law and doesn't act in the safest manner possible. His intentions are definitely not the same as the bombers. (look familiar?)

When a drunk kills a family in spite of his so-called 'good intentions', he should still be charged with as many counts of criminal homicide and reckless endangerment as there were people involved.

Do you feel it is reasonable that the owners/managers of the factory should also be held as culpable?

Greed and stupidity lead to death in both instances.


Exactly Hillwill.

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 88
RE: Boston: Enough is Enough! - 4/25/2013 12:39:50 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

I disagree that an explosion was inevitable or that they knew it was inevitable. I'm sure they knew it wasn't as safe as could be, but I doubt they believed it would inevitably lead to an incident.


If they were competent enough to make the process work, they would've known the risks. Also, assuming they were incompetent to a level that makes malice look benign, as you suggest, then we get a vital question: at what point do we consider it okay to be putting whole neighbourhoods at risk of being levelled in the name of profits, anyway?

I mean, it's not like this thing is a theoretical risk; it's happened in TX before.

quote:

In the end, though, engaging in activity that could result in an explosion causing a lot of damage and death is much different from engaging in activity where the purpose of the activity itself is to cause an explosion that causes damage and death.


Without the right security measures in place, it's not a case of "could", it's a case of "when".

And, personally, I think it's less offensive to kill a bunch of people intentionally than to do so as a "meh, whatever" side effect.

Now, as a sidebar, seeing as DHS is supposed to monitor people that buy huge quantities of ammonium nitrate, and this plant didn't follow procedures, it seems likely that either (a) DHS could've known the plant was there by the purchases reported, or (b) the purchases were never reported. Any opinion on which of these were more likely?

IWYW,
— Aswad.



_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 89
RE: Boston: Enough is Enough! - 4/25/2013 12:45:36 PM   
Aswad


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Joined: 4/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

Well then the next time somebody shoots an abortion doctor, I guess we better call it "misguided idealism."


I assume you meant to be sarcastic, but I really wouldn't have a problem with that, as idealism is the motive force.

People usually do things for a reason, and greed strikes me as a particularly offensive reason for mass murder. Similarly, idealism doesn't strike me as something that would excuse a crime to anyone not sharing it. This, regardless of whether the crime is blowing shit up or shooting doctors. So, really, where's the problem in saying "he shot the doc for idealistic reasons, and now we've tried and convicted him of murder; justice has been served, hoorah"?

IWYW,
— Aswad.



_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 90
RE: Boston: Enough is Enough! - 4/25/2013 4:52:35 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
I disagree that an explosion was inevitable or that they knew it was inevitable. I'm sure they knew it wasn't as safe as could be, but I doubt they believed it would inevitably lead to an incident.

If they were competent enough to make the process work, they would've known the risks. Also, assuming they were incompetent to a level that makes malice look benign, as you suggest, then we get a vital question: at what point do we consider it okay to be putting whole neighbourhoods at risk of being levelled in the name of profits, anyway?
I mean, it's not like this thing is a theoretical risk; it's happened in TX before.
quote:

In the end, though, engaging in activity that could result in an explosion causing a lot of damage and death is much different from engaging in activity where the purpose of the activity itself is to cause an explosion that causes damage and death.

Without the right security measures in place, it's not a case of "could", it's a case of "when".
And, personally, I think it's less offensive to kill a bunch of people intentionally than to do so as a "meh, whatever" side effect.
Now, as a sidebar, seeing as DHS is supposed to monitor people that buy huge quantities of ammonium nitrate, and this plant didn't follow procedures, it seems likely that either (a) DHS could've known the plant was there by the purchases reported, or (b) the purchases were never reported. Any opinion on which of these were more likely?
IWYW,
— Aswad.


They didn't report their purchases. I'm fairly certain that has already been reported.

You still think Corporate management didn't care that the plant blew up, causing all that death and destruction? Seriously? What part of profit-making strategy does plant and labor destruction (don't even include the surrounding area for now) fall under?

At what point did I say malice can ever be benign? I think you may have used the wrong word there.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 91
RE: Boston: Enough is Enough! - 4/25/2013 5:07:56 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
You still think Corporate management didn't care that the plant blew up, causing all that death and destruction? Seriously? What part of profit-making strategy does plant and labor destruction (don't even include the surrounding area for now) fall under?

At what point did I say malice can ever be benign? I think you may have used the wrong word there.


I think it is fairly obvious the corporate managers didn't give a shit as long as they could squeeze every last penny out of the operation. I'm betting they'll simply declare bankruptcy or reveal a litigation shield between the corps real assets and the inevitable lawsuits.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 92
RE: Boston: Enough is Enough! - 4/25/2013 5:49:34 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

They didn't report their purchases. I'm fairly certain that has already been reported.


So, if the next McVeigh wanted to fly under the radar, he could've just come to them... excellent compliance.

quote:

You still think Corporate management didn't care that the plant blew up, causing all that death and destruction?


They care that it happened, I'm sure. And I'm also fairly certain that at least the younger of the two Boston bombers cared that a lot of innocent people got killed and injured, in particular the kid. Heck, McVeigh expressed regret at the kids in the daycare center of the building he blew up. Very few people manage to completely inoculate themselves against compassion or the like.

There's a difference between having remorse and being a decent human being.

quote:

Seriously? What part of profit-making strategy does plant and labor destruction (don't even include the surrounding area for now) fall under?


The usual one: short term profits.

I'm sure you've observed that strategy at work in the world around you all the time.

quote:

At what point did I say malice can ever be benign? I think you may have used the wrong word there.


You didn't say it. I, however, said it can be comparatively benign. As in, it takes a small amount of malice, or a huge amount of incompetence, to cause this sort of disaster in this parcticular way, and I'd rather it be the malice of greed than the abyss of stupidity, given that the latter can be infinitely harmful, while the former is at least finite. ~lol~

IWYW,
— Aswad.



_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 93
RE: Boston: Enough is Enough! - 4/25/2013 6:36:34 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
They didn't report their purchases. I'm fairly certain that has already been reported.

So, if the next McVeigh wanted to fly under the radar, he could've just come to them... excellent compliance.


You seem to be under the assumption that I approve of their not following the law. You would be wrong.

quote:

quote:

At what point did I say malice can ever be benign? I think you may have used the wrong word there.

You didn't say it. I, however, said it can be comparatively benign. As in, it takes a small amount of malice, or a huge amount of incompetence, to cause this sort of disaster in this parcticular way, and I'd rather it be the malice of greed than the abyss of stupidity, given that the latter can be infinitely harmful, while the former is at least finite. ~lol~
IWYW,
— Aswad.


Here's a quote from another of your posts (#89), Aswad:
    quote:

    Also, assuming they were incompetent to a level that makes malice look benign, as you suggest


Where you get that I suggested, alluded to, inferred or ever even considered that, I have no idea.

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 94
RE: Boston: Enough is Enough! - 4/26/2013 6:49:30 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

You seem to be under the assumption that I approve of their not following the law. You would be wrong.


I was under no such assumption. I was snarking at the plant.

quote:

Where you get that I suggested, alluded to, inferred or ever even considered that, I have no idea.


Ah, I should've explained better. Mea culpa.

The "as you suggest" part refers to you suggesting that incompetence, rather than malice, was the cause of the incident.

Clearer now?

IWYW,
— Aswad.



_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 95
RE: Boston: Enough is Enough! - 4/26/2013 8:44:57 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
You seem to be under the assumption that I approve of their not following the law. You would be wrong.

I was under no such assumption. I was snarking at the plant.
quote:

Where you get that I suggested, alluded to, inferred or ever even considered that, I have no idea.

Ah, I should've explained better. Mea culpa.
The "as you suggest" part refers to you suggesting that incompetence, rather than malice, was the cause of the incident.
Clearer now?
IWYW,
— Aswad.


Yes, but we still don't see the same with regards to the plant explosion and the marathon bombings. It has been said, though, that variety is the spice of life. So, if we all thought exactly the same, it'd be quite a bit less interesting, imo.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 96
RE: Boston: Enough is Enough! - 4/26/2013 9:18:50 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline 		Works for me. Just saying, if I'm gonna be blown up over something, I'd rather it be something a little more meaningful than making a quick buck, even if it's something I don't agree with. In the ends, there's bits and pieces all over the place no matter what the cause was, and the idea that a little extra money can be worth those bits and pieces to people that already have enough to set up a plant that size, I'm not very forgiving of that.

IWYW,
— Aswad.



_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 97
RE: Boston: Enough is Enough! - 4/27/2013 3:03:18 PM   
LookieNoNookie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: stef

Plagiarist.


(Still funny :) )

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Profile   Post #: 98
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