RE: Young Men and Mass Violence (Full Version)

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tweakabelle -> RE: Young Men and Mass Violence (5/6/2013 4:17:47 AM)

quote:

Rule
Also you seem convinced that any interpretation is a fact. Well, you are wrong.


I've no idea where you got this bit of nonsense from. You have got it precisely the wrong way around.

I guess even a supergenius has a bad day every now and then ......




tweakabelle -> RE: Young Men and Mass Violence (5/6/2013 4:57:32 AM)

quote:

vincentML
quote:



Vincent, your question seems to me to interested in identifying the determining factors are in a given behaviour. I don't believe that any human behaviour is wholly determined. It seems all human behaviour is mediated through the brain mostly consciously, often sub-consciously. This implies an element of choice, which can range from the minute to total prevarication depending on the individual the context and the choice.


Tweakabelle, there are some who posit that the choices we make are determined by the choices we made previously and those determined by choices made even earlier, and the emotions associated with those choices. Probably not a good place to insert the question of whether free will is an illusion but what prompts me strongly to wonder about it is the strength of compulsions, addictions, and fetishes that grip the consciousness of so many, and over-ride any sense of which behavioural choice is truly best for the individual's survival, status, or self-esteem. In a simple case, when you choose to visit a theatre and see a particular film your choice is determined by your previous decisions about the genre of film or the actors, etc. In the more problematic situation, when a rapist, a pedophile, or a mass killer acts out his fantasies those fantasies have such a grip on his mind to indicate he is in the thrall of delusion. So, free choice? I dunno.


Vincent, I have my doubts about "free will" too, especially when it is posed in an 'either/or' fashion against its supposed opposite of "pre-determination".

The question of addictive behaviour is interesting here. Both the current models of treatment (abstinence and harm reduction) posit that after completing treatment, the addicted person has a choice whether to indulge their addiction or not. So one begins with an unmanageable behaviour and ends up with a choice. One way of looking at that is: the choice - to indulge or not to indulge - has been there all along, the problem is that the addict was unable to access and/or exercise that choice, the addiction blinds them to the choices available to them. The role of therapy is to restore access to that choice to the addicted person, enabling them to exercise those choices. Neither approach uses chemical substitutes as an essential part of treatment, with the abstinence model eschewing such substitutes completely. The role of the individual, the strength of their commitment to change themselves and how they exercise their choices are the critical factors.

Cognitive Behaviour Therapy (CBT), currently much in vogue in that field is even more explicit. CBT holds that addiction is a learned behaviour, a habit. CBT treatments are designed to 'un-learn' that behaviour and replace the self destructive habit with healthier habits. The therapy is centred around teaching the addict skills to make better decisions - a decision to indulge the habit being a poor decision, a decision to do something healthier being a good decision.

Thus even in situations where it is held that the person has 'lost control of their life', where they are at the mercy of external elements chemicals or behaviours or whatever it is they are addicted to, there are still choices to be exercised.




Rule -> RE: Young Men and Mass Violence (5/6/2013 5:14:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
quote:

Rule
Also you seem convinced that any interpretation is a fact. Well, you are wrong.


I've no idea where you got this bit of nonsense from. You have got it precisely the wrong way around.

I guess even a supergenius has a bad day every now and then ......

You are still screwed up linguistically. Facts and interpretations are mutually exclusive. A fact is never an interpretation and an interpretation is never a fact.

The only relationship between one or more facts and an interpretation is that the latter tries to make sense of the former.

An example: you manifest various characteristics, i.e. you are described by a number of facts. From this I deduce - my interpretation; not in itself a fact - that you are a submissive.




vincentML -> RE: Young Men and Mass Violence (5/6/2013 5:16:39 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Which raises the possibility that all our affirmations and denials are merely illusions.

Well, let's say the whole world is an illusion. There's still something that experiences it. That's self-evident. So even if the world really is an illusion, it wouldn't mean that we are.

K.


That's true. But 'self-evident' does not involve choices on our part. So, free will is not really involved. It is self-evident the train is oncoming. My choice to get off the tracks is made from knowledge by seeing previous photos of train wrecks perhaps and my discomfort at the thought of death, none of which is new to me.

I have been thinking that 'delusion' would be a better word to describe what we are doing when we make affirmations and denials. We delude ourselves into believing the choice is freely made when in fact we would not have made it if it did not satisfy some preconceived, previously made choice that releases maybe dopamine to our brain receptors.

I have Faith/I do not have Faith. The choice is not made in a vacuum sans previous experience and thought. All my life choices and experiences compel me to go one way or the other. And then I rationalize the choice by choosing to read or listen to others who will affirm my choice [make me feel good], and blocking away those who do not [and make me feel distressed]

Anyway, a working philosophical hypothesis. [:D]





Rule -> RE: Young Men and Mass Violence (5/6/2013 5:28:23 AM)

[:-]

Boy are those therapists dimwitted!

I bet that they think that they can use their therapies to teach someone who has lost his legs to run, and that after two weeks they will dump that legless person at the start line of the Boston marathon and that they will tell that person: "Go ahead, you have had therapy and now instead of habitually refusing to run, you now may make the choice to either run or not run. Go ahead and choose!" [8|]




Rule -> RE: Young Men and Mass Violence (5/6/2013 5:31:44 AM)

Neural nets both can be trained and are selfprogramming. That is old hat. *shrug*




PeonForHer -> RE: Young Men and Mass Violence (5/6/2013 5:43:31 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

Neural nets both can be trained and are selfprogramming. That is old hat. *shrug*


Only if they're German-fluted.




Rule -> RE: Young Men and Mass Violence (5/6/2013 6:20:53 AM)

I suspect that you know more about neural nets than I do.

I may look up German fluted neural nets at a later time...




Kirata -> RE: Young Men and Mass Violence (5/6/2013 7:21:56 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule
quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
When I say 'the earth revolves around the sun', that's demonstrable.

But it is not a fact; nor a hypothesis; it is a theory.

Jesus. Who cares?

Yeah, who cares whether your example of a fact is actually a fact. Heh.

The pictures we see in books and on TV of the sun sitting in space with its orbiting planets are highly artificial depictions. The sun is not stationary, and no planet ever returns to the same point in space at the completion of its orbit. In fact, if you'll excuse the expression, the sun is moving at about 486,000 miles per hour with the orbits of the planets describing elongated spirals around its track through the galaxy.

Just sayin, yanno.

K.




vincentML -> RE: Young Men and Mass Violence (5/6/2013 7:33:22 AM)

quote:

Vincent, I have my doubts about "free will" too, especially when it is posed in an 'either/or' fashion against its supposed opposite of "pre-determination".

Tweakabelle; I would love to have you elaborate just a bit on this and help me understand your thought better.

quote:

The question of addictive behaviour is interesting here. Both the current models of treatment (abstinence and harm reduction) posit that after completing treatment, the addicted person has a choice whether to indulge their addiction or not. So one begins with an unmanageable behaviour and ends up with a choice. One way of looking at that is: the choice - to indulge or not to indulge - has been there all along, the problem is that the addict was unable to access and/or exercise that choice, the addiction blinds them to the choices available to them. The role of therapy is to restore access to that choice to the addicted person, enabling them to exercise those choices. Neither approach uses chemical substitutes as an essential part of treatment, with the abstinence model eschewing such substitutes completely. The role of the individual, the strength of their commitment to change themselves and how they exercise their choices are the critical factors.

I agree the alternatives are always present. To indulge or not to indulge. To jump or not to jump. Those are always valid questions. The choices that are made are those that best satisfy our psychic comfort or hunger for wont of better labels. Characterizing addictions as learned habits reinforces the notion that the choices we make are influenced by the previous choices we made and the attending emotions that were evoked. The habits are seldom totally extinguished, are they? It is difficult to determine how strong addictions are and whether some are stronger than others. Is an addiction to nicotine stronger, more gripping than an addiction to cross-dressing? Some smokers can throw away their cigarettes and replace the habit with eating or running. Many cross-dressers throw away their wardrobes but soon after are compelled to purchase replacements. Both habits probably sensitize dopamine receptors in the brain. To what extent depends on the life experience of the individual much more than the nature of the external substance imo. And from whence commeth the strength and commitment to change? Drug addicts and alcoholics say it doesn’t come about until the nadir is reached. For many unfortunates the nadir is death. The strength and commitment to change comes from within after the crash. Is that free choice?

quote:

Cognitive Behaviour Therapy (CBT), currently much in vogue in that field is even more explicit. CBT holds that addiction is a learned behaviour, a habit. CBT treatments are designed to 'un-learn' that behaviour and replace the self destructive habit with healthier habits. The therapy is centred around teaching the addict skills to make better decisions - a decision to indulge the habit being a poor decision, a decision to do something healthier being a good decision.

I have had some past experience with cbt for my spouse. Personally I found it somewhat superficial. I’m afraid I have already developed a distrust. When reading on the subject here in Wiki I was struck first by the great variety of maladies allegedly helped. Brought to mind the old patent medicine man who rides into town with a wagon load of cure-all elixir. . . . lol! The suspicion to which I was predisposed was heightened to say the least. The other problem that was presented is while they talk of efficacy there seems to be no data on recidivism and long range ‘cures.’

quote:

Thus even in situations where it is held that the person has 'lost control of their life', where they are at the mercy of external elements chemicals or behaviours or whatever it is they are addicted to, there are still choices to be exercised.

I’m not convinced we are ever at the mercy of external elements, except of course storms and mudslides, etc. We are more likely at the mercy of our life experiences and the chemical modifications made in our brains. We do internalize the external environment through our senses and process it through the cortex causing changes in the nerve impulses and chemical secretions. These subtle changes lead to growth of the psyche which makes decisions. My best guess.

I wonder why I am attracted to the idea of free will as an illusion? It certainly does not replace responsibility for my actions. I came upon it first from a rather dry lecture I have on a series of DVDs. After listening and watching I thought “Well, maybe. Eh!” The idea became more palatable to me after a YouTube lecture by Sam Harris in your Sydney Opera House.

Obviously, I am no expert and do not have so much invested in the idea that I would fight bitterly for it. In fact it defies all the ego determinism I thought was my heritage. But, what previous thoughts have left me open to this notion? Hmmm . . . I wonder. Fascinating topic. Thank you for providing challenges and fuel for my fire, Tweak. [:D]






Kirata -> RE: Young Men and Mass Violence (5/6/2013 7:41:23 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

All my life choices and experiences compel me to go one way or the other. And then I rationalize the choice by choosing to read or listen to others who will affirm my choice [make me feel good], and blocking away those who do not [and make me feel distressed]

I'll quibble with your premise. Our past experience does not "compel" us to go one way or the other. It influences us, certainly; impels us if you like. But we are not powerless to disregard it, and we do, often to our peril, but sometimes to our lasting benefit.

K.




Kirata -> RE: Young Men and Mass Violence (5/6/2013 7:49:45 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

I wonder why I am attracted to the idea of free will as an illusion? It certainly does not replace responsibility for my actions.

How did you come to that conclusion?

K.




vincentML -> RE: Young Men and Mass Violence (5/6/2013 8:03:47 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

I wonder why I am attracted to the idea of free will as an illusion? It certainly does not replace responsibility for my actions.

How did you come to that conclusion?

K.


Actually, if I recall correctly Sam Harris says it does and it doesn't but in any event the evil doer must be permanently removed from society if his crime is so heinous and hurtful and he likely to remain a danger. Otherwise, for more minor misbehaviours I think he advocates a justice system geared to rehabilitation rather than retribution. So, I may have his conclusion wrong. I shall have to give it more thought than I have because it is an important part of the issue. Maybe I am not responsible for the things I do. On the other hand, why not? The harmful choice I made is the culmination of previous thoughts and habits. I am very ambivalent on this. Jeffrey Dahmer. Was he or wasn't he responsible for the heinous cannibalistic murders that he acted out from his compulsion and fantasies? In any event he had to be removed from walking about freely to continue his behaviour. What do you think?




Kirata -> RE: Young Men and Mass Violence (5/6/2013 8:12:57 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

I have my doubts about "free will" too, especially when it is posed in an 'either/or' fashion

This. The position that free will must either be absolute or else it's illusory contrives a false dichotomy.

K.




Rule -> RE: Young Men and Mass Violence (5/6/2013 9:05:20 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

I wonder why I am attracted to the idea of free will as an illusion? It certainly does not replace responsibility for my actions.

How did you come to that conclusion?

K.


lol




PeonForHer -> RE: Young Men and Mass Violence (5/6/2013 10:23:52 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule
quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
When I say 'the earth revolves around the sun', that's demonstrable.

But it is not a fact; nor a hypothesis; it is a theory.

Jesus. Who cares?

Yeah, who cares whether your example of a fact is actually a fact. Heh.

K.



Tut. Read again. I didn't give an example of a 'fact'. Nor would I, because I simply can't be bothered to get into that argument. [;)]




vincentML -> RE: Young Men and Mass Violence (5/6/2013 2:25:46 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

I have my doubts about "free will" too, especially when it is posed in an 'either/or' fashion

This. The position that free will must either be absolute or else it's illusory contrives a false dichotomy.

K.


You left off the remainder of her sentence changing its meaning.

Anyway, how do you arrive at a false dichotomy?




Kirata -> RE: Young Men and Mass Violence (5/6/2013 2:51:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

I have my doubts about "free will" too, especially when it is posed in an 'either/or' fashion

This. The position that free will must either be absolute or else it's illusory contrives a false dichotomy.

You left off the remainder of her sentence changing its meaning.

Well if I changed the meaning, then I withdraw the kudos. [:)]

K.




Real0ne -> RE: Young Men and Mass Violence (5/6/2013 3:56:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

I wonder why I am attracted to the idea of free will as an illusion? It certainly does not replace responsibility for my actions.

How did you come to that conclusion?

K.


Actually, if I recall correctly Sam Harris says it does and it doesn't but in any event the evil doer must be permanently removed from society if his crime is so heinous and hurtful and he likely to remain a danger. Otherwise, for more minor misbehaviours I think he advocates a justice system geared to rehabilitation rather than retribution. So, I may have his conclusion wrong. I shall have to give it more thought than I have because it is an important part of the issue. Maybe I am not responsible for the things I do. On the other hand, why not? The harmful choice I made is the culmination of previous thoughts and habits. I am very ambivalent on this. Jeffrey Dahmer. Was he or wasn't he responsible for the heinous cannibalistic murders that he acted out from his compulsion and fantasies? In any event he had to be removed from walking about freely to continue his behaviour. What do you think?


the level of heinous and hurtful has nothing to do with being a continued danger.

he was removed for past transgressions not as a future danger if I remember the case.




PeonForHer -> RE: Young Men and Mass Violence (5/6/2013 5:12:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

I suspect that you know more about neural nets than I do.

I may look up German fluted neural nets at a later time...



There are no such things as 'German fluted neural nets', Rule. 'German fluted' is a completely meaningless phrase. I made it up.

Jesus. Am I the only one who has even heard of Stephen Potter? I can't believe that this is so easy.




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