RE: Young Men and Mass Violence (Full Version)

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Rule -> RE: Young Men and Mass Violence (5/6/2013 5:40:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
There are no such things as 'German fluted neural nets', Rule. 'German fluted' is a completely meaningless phrase. I made it up.

In that case, me having free will, I choose to put your posts on Hide as of now.

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
Am I the only one who has even heard of Stephen Potter?

I dunno. Is he related to Harry Potter?

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
I can't believe that this is so easy.

Clearly, it wasn't as you have activated my free will.

I give you credit for confessing your sin - but you do are responsible for your sin, whether you have free will or not.



Politesub53 -> RE: Young Men and Mass Violence (5/6/2013 5:43:07 PM)

Peon...... Is he Harrys brother ? [;)]

Your fact was correct though. Despite the sun moving, the Earth does indeed revolve the sun.



Aswad -> RE: Young Men and Mass Violence (5/6/2013 5:46:03 PM)

More like the Earth is falling into the Sun, but keeps missing because of tangential velocity.

This, I believe, is called "orbiting" the Sun, and it's very popular with the planets.

I love missing the Sun. [:D]

IWYW,
— Aswad.




PeonForHer -> RE: Young Men and Mass Violence (5/6/2013 6:10:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule
In that case, me having free will, I choose to put your posts on Hide as of now.


*Sob* [:(]



PeonForHer -> RE: Young Men and Mass Violence (5/6/2013 6:13:42 PM)

quote:

I love missing the Sun.


That chokes me with warmth, Aswad. As a denizen of Norway, you must spend 11 and a half months of every year being very full of love.



PeonForHer -> RE: Young Men and Mass Violence (5/6/2013 6:16:34 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Peon...... Is he Harrys brother ? [;)]



He was responsible for the term 'Oneupmanship', PS. Some good humorous books, and a crackly old Ealing Comedy with Terry-Thomas, inspired by him.



vincentML -> RE: Young Men and Mass Violence (5/6/2013 6:29:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

All my life choices and experiences compel me to go one way or the other. And then I rationalize the choice by choosing to read or listen to others who will affirm my choice [make me feel good], and blocking away those who do not [and make me feel distressed]

I'll quibble with your premise. Our past experience does not "compel" us to go one way or the other. It influences us, certainly; impels us if you like. But we are not powerless to disregard it, and we do, often to our peril, but sometimes to our lasting benefit.

K.

Sorry I missed this earlier. Perhaps 'compel' is too loaded a word because it challenges the belief that your consciousness is the author of your actions. The brief against free will argues that your intentions and desires arise from the larger body of all the genetic, neurochemistry, emotions, childhood nurturing (or not) and internalization of information that preceded your action. The thought to disregard who you are is already part of who you are. Elsewise where does the thought come from? Did your consciousness pluck it out of the air? Did it arise from your consciousness? Or did it arise into your consciousness? It would have never been a choice if it were not already a component of who you are. The choice you think you make from your free will ego was already loaded as a potential. You made that choice because of who you are. People who seem to act irrationally or against their better interests do so because that is who they have become. The psychopath acts the way he does because that's what he is. He is the way he is because he was unlucky enough to draw the short straws of genetics and childhood environment. What do you think? [:D]



PeonForHer -> RE: Young Men and Mass Violence (5/6/2013 6:37:02 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Your fact was correct though. Despite the sun moving, the Earth does indeed revolve the sun.


I've googled that for confirmation (no offence) . . . but, thanks, PS.

I feel decidedly more confident that I have a grip on my knowledge of the universe, now. I no longer have the constant urge to stand naked in front of my bathroom mirror trying to work out which is my arse and which is my elbow. [:)]



Aswad -> RE: Young Men and Mass Violence (5/6/2013 8:22:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

That chokes me with warmth, Aswad. As a denizen of Norway, you must spend 11 and a half months of every year being very full of love.


6 months, but yes, a lot of love up here. [:D]

IWYW,
— Aswad.




tweakabelle -> RE: Young Men and Mass Violence (5/6/2013 9:18:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tweakabelle

At no stage in the process is a fact established, produced or identified.

Hm, I see where you go wrong: you are screwed up linguistically.

Changing the connotations of words is a tactic, not a mistake. For example, using the word "fact" as if it meant an absolute infallible truth. Is anything we know absolute and infallible? Of course not. What then is a scientific fact, really? Why, it's just an opinion!

Isn't that amazing? With a little double-speak you can even make facts disappear. And, of course, with propaganda as with Yoga, the first step in controlling the mind is to lead it away from its contact with external reality.

K.

It wasn't me who was playing with the meanings or status of 'fact' - it was you.

The relevant paragraph (post #216) began: "The fact of the matter, of course, is that there is ...." This claim is a common rhetorical ploy that seeks to establish the speaker as the person who can determine and pronounce 'facts', and that whatever version of 'facts' they are presenting is both 'fact-ual' and authoritative, that it is beyond dispute. Essentially it is a power grab.

Had your opinions been presented in a less authoritarian, more accurate and more modest fashion, this entire derail could have been avoided



Kirata -> RE: Young Men and Mass Violence (5/7/2013 2:07:39 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

It wasn't me who was playing with the meanings or status of 'fact' - it was you.

The relevant paragraph (post #216) began: "The fact of the matter, of course, is that there is ...." This claim is a common rhetorical ploy that seeks to establish the speaker as the person who can determine and pronounce 'facts', and that whatever version of 'facts' they are presenting is both 'fact-ual' and authoritative, that it is beyond dispute. Essentially it is a power grab.

Your claim is rank bullshit. The statement to which you refer embodies the findings of studies, various of which have already been linked more than once in threads where the subject arose, attesting to the reality that we share in common our innate human nature.

These are built-ins. They are part of the "essence-given-in-Nature" of a human being. Dismissing them from our "perspective" turns us down a non-reality based path to a predictable result. Garbage in, garbage out.

Dismissing reality from one's "perspective" is the province of scriptural literalists and the insane.

K.



Kirata -> RE: Young Men and Mass Violence (5/7/2013 2:38:30 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

I love missing the Sun.

George Harrison, Concert for Bangladesh

K.



Kirata -> RE: Young Men and Mass Violence (5/7/2013 2:56:05 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

What do you think?

Honestly? Well, I think you're wringing every rationalization you can find for all it's worth to make free will go away, because it cannot be encompassed -- it's outrageous, impossible! -- within your philosophy of determinstic physicalism.

K.






Kirata -> RE: Young Men and Mass Violence (5/7/2013 3:21:19 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Your fact was correct though. Despite the sun moving, the Earth does indeed revolve the sun.

Yes. But it remains a "fact" that is commonly misunderstood thanks to being almost invariably illustrated in a misleading fashion. The Earth does not "in fact" revolve around the Sun in the way it is depicted, returning to the same point in space upon the completion of an orbit. Thus, the accuracy of the fact depends on what you think it means. So it offered an opportunity to contrast an actual fact with a potentially misguided impression of what the "fact" is, which seemed relevant in the context of this thread.

K.




Politesub53 -> RE: Young Men and Mass Violence (5/7/2013 4:10:05 AM)

But none the less a fact it is and a fact it remains, your attempt at a strawman is really piss poor.

At least Peon knows his arse from his elbow, even if it did take him a while to get it.




PeonForHer -> RE: Young Men and Mass Violence (5/7/2013 4:32:10 AM)

Cheers, PS. [:)]



Aswad -> RE: Young Men and Mass Violence (5/7/2013 5:06:10 AM)

Tweakabelle,

In the interest of segueing back to the topic: any opinions on post #199?

IWYW,
— Aswad.




Kirata -> RE: Young Men and Mass Violence (5/7/2013 5:37:59 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

At least Peon knows his arse from his elbow

I couldn't say, given the absence of evidence, but you can't tell a strawman from a bus.

K.







vincentML -> RE: Young Men and Mass Violence (5/7/2013 8:14:30 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

What do you think?

Honestly? Well, I think you're wringing every rationalization you can find for all it's worth to make free will go away, because it cannot be encompassed -- it's outrageous, impossible! -- within your philosophy of determinstic physicalism.

K.


We are talking about human behavior here well within the context of the topic of this thread and having consequences on how the community might or might not react to violence depending on their perception of culpability. It might be more comfortable to talk about the formation of violent personality and culpability in general if deterministic physicalism bothers you so. However, let me remind you that you have not been shy in championing inherited fairness. Isn't that a kind of deterministic physicalism?

Let me ask you again: where do the thoughts for optional behaviors come from if not from the subconscious (that repository of all inherited/learned values, emotions, and behaviors) I like to think I am the captain of my ship, master of my fate. I am not at all comfortable with the supposed lack of free will. But maybe there is validity in it. Maybe but for the grace of good luck that might have been me or any of us setting off bombs in Boston. How else can we account for fanatical, senseless, violent behavior in some but not most?

I am trying to work this out. I was hoping you would have something more interesting to say than just: It's outrageous, impossible!

Why is it impossible?



vincentML -> RE: Young Men and Mass Violence (5/7/2013 8:37:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Your fact was correct though. Despite the sun moving, the Earth does indeed revolve the sun.

Yes. But it remains a "fact" that is commonly misunderstood thanks to being almost invariably illustrated in a misleading fashion. The Earth does not "in fact" revolve around the Sun in the way it is depicted, returning to the same point in space upon the completion of an orbit. Thus, the accuracy of the fact depends on what you think it means. So it offered an opportunity to contrast an actual fact with a potentially misguided impression of what the "fact" is, which seemed relevant in the context of this thread.

K.


According to special relativity the laws of physics appear to be the same no matter what your frame of reference and as long as your frame is not accelerating. If you are in an airplane going six hundred miles an hour it doesn't feel like you are going 600 mph. You can drink from a cup of hot coffee that is also going 600 mph without fear of spilling it in your lap.

The earth orbits the sun. The sun in turn orbits the center of our galaxy. The galaxy is moving outward through space/time. Every damn thing is moving. But our frame of reference is our perception of the sun/earth system. Just like walking to the restroom in an airplane it doesn't matter that you are actually walking across St. Louis or Chicago. It makes no difference to you in the aisle. It makes no difference to us that the sun and galaxy are in motion. For our perceptions we do "in fact" return to the same place in our orbit just like you are returning to your same seat in the plane.

I find it more interesting that we are travelling at about 66,000 mph, no one is at the steering wheel, and the dog hasn't fallen out the back window.

Offered just for the fu*k of it. [:D]



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