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RE: Don’t Blame Religion for Boston Bombings - 4/25/2013 5:28:57 AM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

How do you eliminate terrorism when your existence is part of the reason you are being terrorized?

The reasons the USA is under threat are related to its actions, not its existence. You mention the Israeli alliance as one of those reasons - that's a choice the US makes, not something existential.
The are a lot of things that the US could do to improve its image in the Arab world without compromising either the Israeli alliance or existence. I wouldn't be too concerned with the Israeli reaction, it's not like they have anyone else to sponge off.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 4/25/2013 5:31:33 AM >

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RE: Don’t Blame Religion for Boston Bombings - 4/25/2013 5:30:00 AM   
WantsOfTheFlesh


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
Terrorism is a reaction to real, pre-exisiting problems that usually is deployed as a last resort - terrorism operates where there is a failure of politics to resolve these problems. I believe grasping this point is imperative if the issue of terrorism is going to be understood. Understanding terrorism and why it happens is an essential pre-requisite to solving the problem.

A quick glance at the operational areas of major terrorist groups in recent years confirms this claim eg. Ireland, Palestine, Afghanistan, Sri Lanka, Chechnya, Iraq ..... In each case, the terrorist's community was perceived to be under attack or occupation by hostile foreign forces. Religious or political ideologies enter the picture as they offer analyses that make sense to the people under attack, and solutions that appeal to the same group. It doesn't matter whether these analyses and solutions make sense to outsiders, there is no need for them to do so. All that matters is that they make sense to the aggrieved parties.

Ultimately, this perspective is an optimistic one as it offers as solution to the problem of terrorism and a practical strategy to marginalise terrorist groups and ideologies. By focusing on addressing the underlying political issues as part of an overall response to terrorism, it is possible to separate the terrorists and their support base, which leads inevitably to the demise of terrorists as a danger to other people and as an active player in the power politics of the region in question.

sorry tweaks but thats bs coz it points blame mostly at tha victims feet. religions their major identity in these muzlim places & theres no big historic issue wit “occupation” when it comes to their islamic faith if its shia or sunni. why ya think islamists want a new caliphate? nah occupation of tha religious sort they like doesnt cause terrorism in these places.

theres loadsa suffering in non muslim africa & asia. they export family slaughtering terrorism to tha US? nah they just suffer & no one speaks bout it much coz they aint blasting or have loadsa folks speaking up for their causes.

claiming terrorism is only some sorta side effect that butchers use for justification is bs again. fact is islamist terrorism from american citizens amounts to almost as big a problem as general political terrorism & american muslims are just 0.8% of tha population according to stats http://features.pewforum.org/muslim-population-graphic/#/United%20States

i asked ya tweaks on another thread why you said all folks in tha west had to ask hard questions about themselves coz chechens planted bombs to slice up families. i got no real answer cept vague stuff bout how questions need to be asked after what happened. course questions need asking but hows it now a "difficult" question for every single westy?

yr doing tha same here mainly pointing blame at tha US even if ya called them "thugs" & that aint a good word for butchers that partied after tha slaughter. ya said all westerners need to deal wit tha issues these terrorists bring up. ya blame tha US for all tha warped shit in the middle east & thats what tha terrorists do too ffs. they attack civilians to get their voices heard & folks like you act like proxy mouthpieces tho maybe thats not intended on yr part.

< Message edited by WantsOfTheFlesh -- 4/25/2013 6:04:48 AM >

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RE: Don’t Blame Religion for Boston Bombings - 4/25/2013 6:09:19 AM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

WOTF
sorry tweaks but thats bs blaming tha victim. religions their major identity in these muzlim places & theres no big historic issue wit “occupation” when it comes to their islamic faith if its shia or sunni. why ya think islamists want a new caliphate? occupation doesnt cause terrorism.


Your inane claims might be worth considering if the only terrorism in existence was Islamist terrorism . Unfortunately for your claims, there are many other sources and locations for terrorist activity in the world today. For instance, ask any UK poster about their experiences with Irish terrorists. So your analysis has all the depth of a cigarette paper and is about as useless as a wet cigarette paper is to a non-smoker.

It’s very clear from your posts that you have a major bee in your bonnet about Islam. If that’s the way you want to be, that’s your choice. However, trying to pass off your prejudices as some kind of serious thought or insight into a subject that your posts indicate you know little or nothing about fools no one.


< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 4/25/2013 6:13:40 AM >

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RE: Don’t Blame Religion for Boston Bombings - 4/25/2013 6:24:24 AM   
DaddySatyr


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Status: offline 		The only time religion should ever be blamed for bad shit is when ...

... "christians" gather together to shout at the families of dead soldiers, sailors, Marines and airmen.

... "WASPs" (That's "White Anglo-Saxon Protestants" for those of you in Poughkeepsie) join up with the KKK.

... someone who grew up in a "christian" faith who has long since discarded the tenets and practices of that faith does something wrong.

... A "minister" of some "christian" faith gets caught with a hooker.

... A "minister" of some "christian" faith that has a wife that looks like Bozo the Clown decides to start nailing his uber-hot secretary.

You see, in short, it's only "christian" faiths that cause the ills of the world.

Some of you people really need some lessons in how to speak "political correctitude" (or whatever we're calling that particular brand of bullshit, these days)



Peace and comfort,



Michael

< Message edited by DaddySatyr -- 4/25/2013 6:25:14 AM >

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RE: Don’t Blame Religion for Boston Bombings - 4/25/2013 6:28:24 AM   
WantsOfTheFlesh


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
quote:

WOTF
sorry tweaks but thats bs blaming tha victim. religions their major identity in these muzlim places & theres no big historic issue wit “occupation” when it comes to their islamic faith if its shia or sunni. why ya think islamists want a new caliphate?.

Your inane claims might be worth considering if the only terrorism in existence was Islamist terrorism . Unfortunately for your claims, there are many other sources and locations for terrorist activity in the world today. For instance, ask any UK poster about their experiences with Irish terrorists. So your analysis has all the depth of a cigarette paper and is about as useless as a wet cigarette paper is to a non-smoker.

hey tweaky thats about as pure a strawman as i've ever seen here on cm! i never said there werent other forms of terrorism. i was talking bout islamist terrorism which is tha main issue here wit tha bombings or havent ya noticed?

quote:

It’s very clear from your posts that you have a major bee in your bonnet about Islam. If that’s the way you want to be, that’s your choice. However, trying to pass off your prejudices as some kind of serious thought or insight into a subject that your posts indicate you know little or nothing about fools no one.

ah using the ole islamophobia card there again tweaky!

i never said all muslims are terrorists & never would coz i dont believe it. i was trying to discuss tha issues like ya wanted. lol

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RE: Don’t Blame Religion for Boston Bombings - 4/25/2013 6:49:39 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cordeliasub

Criminals may blame their behavior on religion, but I have to say I think most of the time it's just another way to escape personal responsibility.

My cynical answer would be it depends on the religion and who is doing the blaming ;)


In McVeigh's case we don't have to guess he's expressly stated his motivations: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_McVeigh#Motivations_for_the_bombing

The guy did it because he was a paranoid anti-fed right wing gun nut who wanted revenge against the Federal government for Waco and Ruby Ridge.

I have no reason to think his belief in God in any way motivated his act of terrorism but I think it's important to point out that the OP had to post an outright lie in order to find support for his position.

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RE: Don’t Blame Religion for Boston Bombings - 4/25/2013 9:14:21 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
quote:

How do you eliminate terrorism when your existence is part of the reason you are being terrorized?

The reasons the USA is under threat are related to its actions, not its existence.


Wasn't limiting my question to the US, tweak. What actions is the US taking that makes terrorism an acceptable reaction?

quote:

You mention the Israeli alliance as one of those reasons - that's a choice the US makes, not something existential.
The are a lot of things that the US could do to improve its image in the Arab world without compromising either the Israeli alliance or existence.


Like....?

quote:

I wouldn't be too concerned with the Israeli reaction, it's not like they have anyone else to sponge off.


Sorry, tweaks, but your stripes are showing in spades here. At what point in time is it going to be no longer okay (in your mind) for Hamas and the Palestinians to attack Israel? Regardless of who started it, why is it okay for them to continue to shell Israel, but not okay for Israel to return fire?




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RE: Don’t Blame Religion for Boston Bombings - 4/26/2013 4:06:00 AM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
quote:

How do you eliminate terrorism when your existence is part of the reason you are being terrorized?

The reasons the USA is under threat are related to its actions, not its existence.


Wasn't limiting my question to the US, tweak. What actions is the US taking that makes terrorism an acceptable reaction?

I have never said terrorism is an "acceptable reaction". I am saying that there are real political conditions that cause it, and if you are serious about wanting to stop it, then those conditions have to be understood and addressed. Common sense really


quote:

quote:

You mention the Israeli alliance as one of those reasons - that's a choice the US makes, not something existential.
The are a lot of things that the US could do to improve its image in the Arab world without compromising either the Israeli alliance or existence.


Like....?

Voting in favour of Palestinian membership of the UN is one obvious move

quote:

quote:

Iwouldn't be too concerned with the Israeli reaction, it's not like they have anyone else to sponge off.


Sorry, tweaks, but your stripes are showing in spades here. At what point in time is it going to be no longer okay (in your mind) for Hamas and the Palestinians to attack Israel? Regardless of who started it, why is it okay for them to continue to shell Israel, but not okay for Israel to return fire?

Do you think you could have made the question more loaded if you tried?
Why is it that the Israeli Occupation of Palestine doesn't get a mention in your scheme of things? Don't you see that as an issue?
How would you respond if your country was occupied by a hostile foreign power who then proceeded to dispossess Americans of their land and property at the the point of a gun?




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RE: Don’t Blame Religion for Boston Bombings - 4/26/2013 4:29:03 AM   
leonine


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto

Should we blame the practice of atheism for the Oklahoma City bombing?

I am well aware that it is social and economic conditions that drive people into the arms of fundamentalist ideologies. But it is the ideology that determines how they will behave. When and if Radical Atheists start a bloody jihad, we'll blame Radical Atheism. When and if Radical Christians start a bloody jihad, we'll blame Radical Christianity. When and if Radical Jews start a bloody jihad, we'll blame Radical Judaism.

Meanwhile, this one's on Radical Islam. Thanks for playing.

K.


You don't have to wait for a Christian jihad, it's in the history books: it was called the Crusades. And that's just the one against Islam. If you count Christian-on-Christian wars, they've been happening since the Council of Nicea, and the latest one in Northern Ireland is still claiming lives.

When the Soviets rounded up and killed Christians for practicing their faith, that sounds like a radical atheist pogrom to me.

The idealists who argued that Buddhism was the only truly peaceful religion which had never had a holy war have been shamefully silent since Buddhists (led by saffron-robed monks) started slaughtering their Muslim neighbours in East Asia.

And if you don't count the massacres in Gaza as Jew-on-Muslim religious war, then you're essentially agreeing with the OP that religion is just a cover for political motives.


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RE: Don’t Blame Religion for Boston Bombings - 4/26/2013 4:44:42 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
quote:

How do you eliminate terrorism when your existence is part of the reason you are being terrorized?

The reasons the USA is under threat are related to its actions, not its existence.

Wasn't limiting my question to the US, tweak. What actions is the US taking that makes terrorism an acceptable reaction?

I have never said terrorism is an "acceptable reaction". I am saying that there are real political conditions that cause it, and if you are serious about wanting to stop it, then those conditions have to be understood and addressed. Common sense really


You are saying it right there that terrorism is an acceptable reaction. Real political conditions exist that cause it [terrorism]. To stop it [terrorism], those [political] conditions have to be addressed. What you are saying is that those that commit terrorist have no choice in the matter. You are saying that political conditions are the cause. At no time are you saying the ones carrying out the terrorist actions need to shoulder blame. That means, terrorism is an acceptable reaction to the real political conditions that do exist.

quote:

quote:

quote:

You mention the Israeli alliance as one of those reasons - that's a choice the US makes, not something existential.
The are a lot of things that the US could do to improve its image in the Arab world without compromising either the Israeli alliance or existence.

Like....?

Voting in favour of Palestinian membership of the UN is one obvious move


That's 1. One is certainly not "a lot." And, I have no problem with the US backing Palestinian membership to the UN. I support a 2-state solution and part of that, imo, should be Palestine's UN membership.

quote:

quote:

quote:

Iwouldn't be too concerned with the Israeli reaction, it's not like they have anyone else to sponge off.

Sorry, tweaks, but your stripes are showing in spades here. At what point in time is it going to be no longer okay (in your mind) for Hamas and the Palestinians to attack Israel? Regardless of who started it, why is it okay for them to continue to shell Israel, but not okay for Israel to return fire?

Do you think you could have made the question more loaded if you tried?
Why is it that the Israeli Occupation of Palestine doesn't get a mention in your scheme of things? Don't you see that as an issue?
How would you respond if your country was occupied by a hostile foreign power who then proceeded to dispossess Americans of their land and property at the the point of a gun?


Loaded question?!? I do not support Israel's expansion of Jewish settlements. Actually, let me rephrase that. I don't support the idea that Jewish settlements outside Israel's borders constitute an expansion of Israel's territorial reach. It seems that is the case, though. IMO, if a large group of Jewish people want to live outside of Israel's borders, they should be free to do so, but that would mean they don't live in Israel.

I have never said that Israel is blameless. But here you are solely blaming Israel for the attacks perpetrated by Palestinians, or groups that support Palestinians.

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RE: Don’t Blame Religion for Boston Bombings - 4/26/2013 5:46:47 AM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
quote:

How do you eliminate terrorism when your existence is part of the reason you are being terrorized?

The reasons the USA is under threat are related to its actions, not its existence.

Wasn't limiting my question to the US, tweak. What actions is the US taking that makes terrorism an acceptable reaction?

I have never said terrorism is an "acceptable reaction". I am saying that there are real political conditions that cause it, and if you are serious about wanting to stop it, then those conditions have to be understood and addressed. Common sense really


You are saying it right there that terrorism is an acceptable reaction. Real political conditions exist that cause it [terrorism]. To stop it [terrorism], those [political] conditions have to be addressed. What you are saying is that those that commit terrorist have no choice in the matter. You are saying that political conditions are the cause. At no time are you saying the ones carrying out the terrorist actions need to shoulder blame. That means, terrorism is an acceptable reaction to the real political conditions that do exist.

Trying to make some sense from that gibberish, it appears you are claiming to know more about what I am saying than I do. If that is the case, there's no need for me to say anything more is there? You already know whatever it is I might be going to say don't you?

ETA: I note you failed to answer my question - How would you respond if your country was occupied by a hostile foreign power who then proceeded to dispossess Americans of their land and property at the the point of a gun?


< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 4/26/2013 5:49:38 AM >

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RE: Don’t Blame Religion for Boston Bombings - 4/26/2013 6:07:11 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

When the Soviets rounded up and killed Christians for practicing their faith, that sounds like a radical atheist pogrom to me.

Not so. That was just one facet of Stalin securing his dictatorship. He moved against a variety of non-compliant groups who resisted his dictates and many who did so only in his paranoid imagination. Stalin was not foremost an atheist. He was foremost a Stalinist. Conflating the two is a weak argument given by religionists who have little else to counter thousands of years of bloody persecution. It is freakin LAME.

< Message edited by vincentML -- 4/26/2013 6:54:21 AM >

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RE: Don’t Blame Religion for Boston Bombings - 4/26/2013 7:19:15 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
quote:

How do you eliminate terrorism when your existence is part of the reason you are being terrorized?

The reasons the USA is under threat are related to its actions, not its existence.

Wasn't limiting my question to the US, tweak. What actions is the US taking that makes terrorism an acceptable reaction?

I have never said terrorism is an "acceptable reaction". I am saying that there are real political conditions that cause it, and if you are serious about wanting to stop it, then those conditions have to be understood and addressed. Common sense really

You are saying it right there that terrorism is an acceptable reaction. Real political conditions exist that cause it [terrorism]. To stop it [terrorism], those [political] conditions have to be addressed. What you are saying is that those that commit terrorist have no choice in the matter. You are saying that political conditions are the cause. At no time are you saying the ones carrying out the terrorist actions need to shoulder blame. That means, terrorism is an acceptable reaction to the real political conditions that do exist.

Trying to make some sense from that gibberish, it appears you are claiming to know more about what I am saying than I do. If that is the case, there's no need for me to say anything more is there? You already know whatever it is I might be going to say don't you?


Show me where I was wrong, then, tweak.

quote:

ETA: I note you failed to answer my question - How would you respond if your country was occupied by a hostile foreign power who then proceeded to dispossess Americans of their land and property at the the point of a gun?


To be honest, I'd end up being killed, probably really quickly. I'd be involved in a less than violent way because I'm more cerebral than physical. Additionally, I have little experience or capacity for actual fighting. I would give my life to protect my own, but it most likely wouldn't amount to much more than a speed bump.


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RE: Don’t Blame Religion for Boston Bombings - 4/26/2013 7:59:42 AM   
FunCouple5280


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quote:

ETA: I note you failed to answer my question - How would you respond if your country was occupied by a hostile foreign power who then proceeded to dispossess Americans of their land and property at the the point of a gun?


I wouldn't kill people running in a race....I would only attack agents of the government. They might call it terrorism, but that is rebellion. Attacking innocents for the sake of scaring them is being a total asshole as it does nothing to limit government power. In fact, it gives the gov an excuse to grab power.

There is a distinct difference. The pathetic notion that political action justifies attacking an unrelated or vaguly loosely related party is that pathetic. If these guys hated the US gov and its involvement in islamic nations, why not hit a gov target? Especially in Boston. I remember being a student there, there was a damn protest every week over, US/Isreali shit in the middle east. They couldn't have found some more like minded americans anywhere in the US to attack.

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RE: Don’t Blame Religion for Boston Bombings - 4/26/2013 9:11:39 AM   
WantsOfTheFlesh


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
ETA: I note you failed to answer my question - How would you respond if your country was occupied by a hostile foreign power who then proceeded to dispossess Americans of their land and property at the the point of a gun?

so tweaks do ya support terrorism or resistance or whateva ya want to call it in tha case of tha pallys against israelis being morally just? sure looks like ya just did.

its kinda interesting ya cited tha pallys wit a few others when ya said terrorism is caused by political situations tha west needs to fix up to stop tha terrorism. yr tha big kahuna when its pally support on cm so by talking bout that in tha same breath as tha boston marathon sons of motherfucking bitches ya must think their violence is justified too. same thing wit how ya always blame tha US for everything. ya see its all a "last resort" to real big problems of tha wests causing aint it? http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=4430558

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
Terrorism is not something that people, religious or otherwise, randomly pick. Where terrorism is prevalent, there exist easily identifiable social and political reasons for its existence, the most common of these is that the community with which the terrorist or terrorist group identifies is under attack from outside malignant forces.

Terrorism is a reaction to real, pre-exisiting problems that usually is deployed as a last resort - terrorism operates where there is a failure of politics to resolve these problems. I believe grasping this point is imperative if the issue of terrorism is going to be understood. Understanding terrorism and why it happens is an essential pre-requisite to solving the problem.

A quick glance at the operational areas of major terrorist groups in recent years confirms this claim eg. Ireland, Palestine, Afghanistan, Sri Lanka, Chechnya, Iraq ..... In each case, the terrorist's community was perceived to be under attack or occupation by hostile foreign forces.


< Message edited by WantsOfTheFlesh -- 4/26/2013 9:15:37 AM >

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RE: Don’t Blame Religion for Boston Bombings - 4/26/2013 9:11:55 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Wasn't limiting my question to the US, tweak. What actions is the US taking that makes terrorism an acceptable reaction?


I didn't see anything in tweaks response saying that she considered the reaction acceptable, just that she considered it to be a reaction.

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RE: Don’t Blame Religion for Boston Bombings - 4/26/2013 9:20:59 AM   
FunCouple5280


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Wasn't limiting my question to the US, tweak. What actions is the US taking that makes terrorism an acceptable reaction?


I didn't see anything in tweaks response saying that she considered the reaction acceptable, just that she considered it to be a reaction.



True, but she intimates that the reaction is somehow justifiable. I could come up and lick your ear, and then you shoot me. It is a reaction, I caused it, but it is hardly justifiable.

True I shouldn't have licked your ear, but you shouldn't have shot me either.

While I want the US out of the sandbox, I am not going to accept that we deserve any terrorist acts against us, nor feel any less disgusted by them.

Had the 911 hijackers only flown into the pentagon I would have a very different oppinion of the day. I would have only seen it as an act of war and not terror.

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RE: Don’t Blame Religion for Boston Bombings - 4/26/2013 9:25:57 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Wasn't limiting my question to the US, tweak. What actions is the US taking that makes terrorism an acceptable reaction?

I didn't see anything in tweaks response saying that she considered the reaction acceptable, just that she considered it to be a reaction.


Neither did she. I addressed it in Post#30.


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RE: Don’t Blame Religion for Boston Bombings - 4/26/2013 4:57:22 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Neither did she. I addressed it in Post#30.


Well....you made a bunch of bullshit up in post 30, I don't think that actually counts as the same thing.

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RE: Don’t Blame Religion for Boston Bombings - 4/26/2013 5:36:10 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Neither did she. I addressed it in Post#30.

Well....you made a bunch of bullshit up in post 30, I don't think that actually counts as the same thing.


Proof that the US isn't alone at the bottom in reading comprehension...


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  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 40
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