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RE: Anarchy & Hegemony: A defense of American Imperialism - 4/28/2013 4:00:24 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

hobbes disregarded law as the basis to resolve matters and as I said earlier the solution based on the laws of nature would be the formation of a civilian posse in the event of a hienious INJURY or trespass, to enforce the law, much like serving jury duty today, and without the standing army (police) that we have today.

Not at all. Hobbes held that Law was valid only so long as there was a Sovereign to enforce it.

quote:

and show what ways the "state of nature" is harmful to anyone

You will have to read Hobbes. It is his thought experiment. He defends it well.

quote:

the article defines anarchy as chaos and I shot that down many posts ago and it was not rebutted so it stands that anarchy is not chaos but life without overlord rulers

Hobbes defines it as the lack of security or assurance with every man at war with all. Sorta like Deadwood.




meh no problem with hobbes. yeh read his shit yeas ago. for the point you want to make however I can rebut it far better than he can defend it.

Now I posted the validation for this umpteen times, so I will forgo it for now.

a sovereign is a king, the king represents the united e-states, which presumably are the pledged tenants, same as it is here, except our state is a fucking piece of paper.

What makes law valid is its recognition by the community as such.

if someone chops your head off the rest of us recognize that as wrong and against what we all agree is the law so we then in turn chop his head off. super simple stuff.

Is a sovereign more powerful than a million man army putting his head on the block? No.

So the statement that it requires a sovereign is patently false, the statement that I made that it requires recognition is a "BULLSEYE".

So we in the US have sovereign states that is a kingdom the state as a king and an overlord. Just like england. We live in a feudal construct and simply retitled it, which is what reconstruction does.

You know United Colonies of America directly under the king, his e-states managed by manor lords, was then reconstructed into the sub sovereign, titled the United States of America with authority to govern, then reconstructed again with the creation of another subsovereign titled the United States, which was divided into more subsovereigns titled states, then counties and the local corporate bodies known as bouroughs and municipalities.

Since a group of men chopped the kings head off it is self evident that it does NOT require a sovereign to create the law because the king does not have the biggest guns, that is in reality what creates the law.

Anarchy is much more civilized and brings the law to the table on an individual basis rather mob rule where the mob decides and everyones feet are forced into one size one color one style shoe.

Since you apparently feel you know something about law, then what elements would you think is are required to determine good law for the adjudication of controversies to replace the judge dredd feudal overlord system?

quote:

Hobbes defines it as the lack of security or assurance with every man at war with all.


That is nonsensical in terms of having law without overlords. Remember hobbes and blackstone were buts that had they fallen too far from the tree would have been beheaded in those days.

so back to this:
So the statement that it requires a sovereign is patently false, the statement that I made that it requires recognition is a "BULLSEYE".

that is in regard to ALL possible methods available, it is patently false. However in the feudal system we are presently in, here in the us, which imo is not arguable, and no one can or has produced a substantial argument, it is true, we would need a sovereign but not by necessity but by design. Unless we do another reconstruction.

So defend hobbes if you can



< Message edited by Real0ne -- 4/28/2013 4:18:21 PM >

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 181
RE: Anarchy & Hegemony: A defense of American Imperialism - 4/28/2013 7:31:25 PM   
WantsOfTheFlesh


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
quote:

tha ussr recovered wit good speed by then. historians usually date tha cold war to 1946. bout this time stalin started getting aggressive & didnt honor agreed allied withdrawals.

Which ones?

as cold war historians go i read john gaddis. if ya mean which withdrawal i reckon tha cold war kicked off round about truman became impatient with tha ussr over iran in 1946. seems things were tense but cordial tha year before.

< Message edited by WantsOfTheFlesh -- 4/28/2013 7:37:14 PM >

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RE: Anarchy & Hegemony: A defense of American Imperialism - 4/28/2013 10:57:25 PM   
YN


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

So everyone in America is the same as those posters?
And the millions of people who didn't vote for Bush are now neo-conservatives because *you* say so?

Does that mean that the millions of minorities in the USA are white supremacists? That the millions of American women are misogynists? The millions of people who brought an end to the Vietnam war are war mongers?

Xenophobe much?


quote:

ORIGINAL: YN


quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

Did you seriously just compare the ramblings of some internet trolls to the norm for an entire nation? I'd like to see your critical thinking explicated on that.




He speaks the neo-conservative plank which was one of the core tenets of your Bush regime, a group elected twice by your country and on the neo-conservative plank, which was also endorsed by the corporate democrats in the United States. As such his words ansd his thinking is far more then the ramblings of an" internet troll."






The United States elected the Bush neo-conservative Bush administration, not once but twice by popular vote. You cannot pretend this was the result of "internet trolls" or some fringe group.

< Message edited by YN -- 4/28/2013 10:58:17 PM >

(in reply to Powergamz1)
Profile   Post #: 183
RE: Anarchy & Hegemony: A defense of American Imperialism - 4/28/2013 11:02:58 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
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_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to YN)
Profile   Post #: 184
RE: Anarchy & Hegemony: A defense of American Imperialism - 4/28/2013 11:10:02 PM   
YN


Posts: 699
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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

"Anarchy & Hegemony: A defense of American Imperialism" was the title to your thread, you chose that title, no?

So now you claim this is not about American hegemony and imperialism but the historical imperialism and hegemony?

That's it? You draw your conclusions and arguments from the title of the thread?

If you would get your lazy intellectual arse to read the freaken article you would see that Kaplan is lamenting the withdrawal of American hegemony. He is defending it in a backhanded fashion by showing that throughout history anarchy was put off by inequality among nations. Either you haven't bothered to read the article or the topic is too nuanced for you.


LOL. So your own words are meaningless. And Kaplan's complaints about the loss of United States hegemony were a red herring?


quote:

The Soviet-Japanese War of 1945 (Russian: Советско-японская война, lit. Soviet-Japanese War), began on August 9, 1945, with the Soviet invasion of the Japanese puppet state of Manchukuo. The Soviets terminated Japanese control of Manchukuo, Mengjiang (inner Mongolia), northern Korea, southern Sakhalin, and the Kuril Islands. The rapid defeat of Japan's Kwantung Army was a significant factor in the Japanese surrender and the termination of World War II.[6][7] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet-Japanese_War_(1945)


And this is what you consider to be the real cause of the downfall of the Japanese? Most the rest of the world thinks it was the Russians taking back ther lands the Japanese had seized from Russia fifty years earlier.

Nobody doubts both the United States and the Soviet Union both went into the imperialistic hegemonic mode during the cCold War, however neither one was particularly engaged in imperialistc activities prior to WW2.

As for the European colonial empires being "in tatters" prior to WW2, good luck with convincing anyone in Africa, Asia, the Caribbean, or Latin America of that being fact. Or those living in Canada, New Zealand or Australia.

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 185
RE: Anarchy & Hegemony: A defense of American Imperialism - 4/28/2013 11:17:22 PM   
YN


Posts: 699
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne




Well your voting machine problems are an internal security matter, but the principle is that your president, like ours, wins by a majority vote.


This differs from England or Canada where a Tory can win being the Prime Minister with ~20% of the voters, or so it is claimed to be by Canadians and English in the cases of Cameron and Harper. Similar events have occurred in other Parliamentary systems.

< Message edited by YN -- 4/28/2013 11:18:28 PM >

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 186
RE: Anarchy & Hegemony: A defense of American Imperialism - 4/29/2013 8:56:04 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

And this is what you consider to be the real cause of the downfall of the Japanese? Most the rest of the world thinks it was the Russians taking back ther lands the Japanese had seized from Russia fifty years earlier.

Ah, so now you speak for the "rest of the world." Your hubris is off-putting to say the least.

quote:

Nobody doubts both the United States and the Soviet Union both went into the imperialistic hegemonic mode during the cCold War, however neither one was particularly engaged in imperialistc activities prior to WW2.

Not everyone agrees with you, all-knowing one:

Now Robert Gellately uses recently uncovered documents to make clear that, in fact, the dictator was an unwavering revolutionary merely biding his time, determined as ever to establish Communist regimes across Europe and beyond, and that his actions during these years (and the poorly calculated Western responses) set in motion what would eventually become the Cold War. Gellately takes us behind the scenes. We see the dictator disguising his political ambitions and prioritizing the future of Communism, even as he pursued the war against Hitler. http://www.randomhouse.com/book/58946/stalins-curse-by-robert-gellately

(in reply to YN)
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RE: Anarchy & Hegemony: A defense of American Imperialism - 4/29/2013 9:02:39 AM   
Powergamz1


Posts: 1927
Joined: 9/3/2011
Status: offline 		OK, just wanted to double check before I wrote anyone off as a xenophobic bigot.
quote:

ORIGINAL: YN

quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

So everyone in America is the same as those posters?
And the millions of people who didn't vote for Bush are now neo-conservatives because *you* say so?

Does that mean that the millions of minorities in the USA are white supremacists? That the millions of American women are misogynists? The millions of people who brought an end to the Vietnam war are war mongers?

Xenophobe much?


quote:

ORIGINAL: YN


quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

Did you seriously just compare the ramblings of some internet trolls to the norm for an entire nation? I'd like to see your critical thinking explicated on that.




He speaks the neo-conservative plank which was one of the core tenets of your Bush regime, a group elected twice by your country and on the neo-conservative plank, which was also endorsed by the corporate democrats in the United States. As such his words ansd his thinking is far more then the ramblings of an" internet troll."






The United States elected the Bush neo-conservative Bush administration, not once but twice by popular vote. You cannot pretend this was the result of "internet trolls" or some fringe group.



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Profile   Post #: 188
RE: Anarchy & Hegemony: A defense of American Imperialism - 4/29/2013 9:07:08 AM   
vincentML


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Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

Since a group of men chopped the kings head off it is self evident that it does NOT require a sovereign to create the law because the king does not have the biggest guns, that is in reality what creates the law.

You are soooo confused. Sovereignty does not reside in a single man; it resides in unequal power regardless of how many men are involved, as demonstrated by the Northern states in our Civi War.

quote:

Anarchy is much more civilized and brings the law to the table on an individual basis rather mob rule where the mob decides and everyones feet are forced into one size one color one style shoe.

Again you confuse the thrust of this article which focuses on international and geopolitical relationships and not on individuals. But, that aside, please tell me an example, other than some hippy commune, where anarchy prevails and maintains peaceful order, where all are errmmm . . . comrades.

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 189
RE: Anarchy & Hegemony: A defense of American Imperialism - 4/29/2013 9:11:01 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

Well your voting machine problems are an internal security matter, but the principle is that your president, like ours, wins by a majority vote.

Historically, you are incorrect. Lincoln in 1860, Hayes in 1876, and Clinton in 1992 did not win the popular vote. FAIL!

(in reply to YN)
Profile   Post #: 190
RE: Anarchy & Hegemony: A defense of American Imperialism - 4/29/2013 9:11:07 AM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline 		the us has been in a hegemonic mode since the civil war when the north deprived the south of suffrage and "consent" of their own volition to be part of this union and through military force imposed martial law upon them to grab land to secure new loans.


"It's not the people who vote that count. It's the people who count the votes."






< Message edited by Real0ne -- 4/29/2013 9:14:21 AM >

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 191
RE: Anarchy & Hegemony: A defense of American Imperialism - 4/29/2013 9:12:47 AM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

the us has been in a hegemonic mode since the civil war when the north deprived the south of suffrage and "consent" of their own volition to be part of this union and through military force imposed martial law upon them to grab land to secure new loans.

Exactly. Hegemony prevailed. Although Andrew Johnson supported the Black Codes the southern states pushed through.

< Message edited by vincentML -- 4/29/2013 9:14:22 AM >

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 192
RE: Anarchy & Hegemony: A defense of American Imperialism - 4/29/2013 9:20:31 AM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline 		do you realize what you just agreed with?

War, hegemony has nothing to do with anarchy and peace between joe plumbers, but the aristocratic plantation lords of the planet with regard to monetary control. "the family feud"


consider this as well:

if you were one of the worlds plantation lords and your armies built up all this armament that was becoming obsolete and no one wanted to by it but pesky little nations who wanted to kick your ass, what is the best way to purge yourself of it so people are willing to pay taxes to update your inventory?

~War inc.

< Message edited by Real0ne -- 4/29/2013 9:27:21 AM >

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 193
RE: Anarchy & Hegemony: A defense of American Imperialism - 4/29/2013 9:31:48 AM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh

bout this time stalin started getting aggressive & didnt honor agreed allied withdrawals.

Which ones?

(in reply to WantsOfTheFlesh)
Profile   Post #: 194
RE: Anarchy & Hegemony: A defense of American Imperialism - 4/29/2013 9:47:14 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

War, hegemony has nothing to do with anarchy and peace between joe plumbers, but the aristocratic plantation lords of the planet with regard to monetary control. "the family feud"

Exactly. Kaplan's article was not about individuals. Sure took you awhile, but happy to see you are beginning to understand.

Have you located that peaceful, anarchist nation yet

(in reply to Real0ne)
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RE: Anarchy & Hegemony: A defense of American Imperialism - 4/29/2013 10:54:26 AM   
Zonie63


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From: The Old Pueblo
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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
But, that aside, please tell me an example, other than some hippy commune, where anarchy prevails and maintains peaceful order, where all are errmmm . . . comrades.


The Mafia from the 1920s to 1960s might be an example, even if it wasn't entirely peaceful. But they acted as their own "government" with their own "law" and were generally considered out of reach by those holding more conventional authority (hegemony). I don't think they would fare well under actual anarchism, but they seemed to be the most successful practitioners of it.

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RE: Anarchy & Hegemony: A defense of American Imperialism - 4/29/2013 1:14:48 PM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
But, that aside, please tell me an example, other than some hippy commune, where anarchy prevails and maintains peaceful order, where all are errmmm . . . comrades.


The Mafia from the 1920s to 1960s might be an example, even if it wasn't entirely peaceful. But they acted as their own "government" with their own "law" and were generally considered out of reach by those holding more conventional authority (hegemony). I don't think they would fare well under actual anarchism, but they seemed to be the most successful practitioners of it.

Interesting suggestion, Z. But the Mafia families were anything but bastions of equality. I get your point but peace was maintained between families through councils of the bosses. And that broke down from time to time, didn't it. As I understand RO he is suggesting a community of equals living together under some agreed upon laws with only the occasional need to form a posse to enforce those laws. Each Mafia family was rigidly hierarchal I think. They were a limited number of groups. Only five in the New York area that face the dangers of proximity conflicts of interests. Others in Chicago, Kansas City, etc were geographically removed.

< Message edited by vincentML -- 4/29/2013 1:17:44 PM >

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RE: Anarchy & Hegemony: A defense of American Imperialism - 4/29/2013 1:49:41 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline 		what is the difference between mafia family/families, their operation and aristocratic family/families and their operation? Do they not both form a government of sorts, among themselves and those they claim to have jurisdiction over, "their" exploitation turf, and do they not both abolish individual freedom under the guise of "forced services" and protection racket?

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 198
RE: Anarchy & Hegemony: A defense of American Imperialism - 4/29/2013 1:51:46 PM   
YN


Posts: 699
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

OK, just wanted to double check before I wrote anyone off as a xenophobic bigot.
quote:

ORIGINAL: YN

quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

So everyone in America is the same as those posters?
And the millions of people who didn't vote for Bush are now neo-conservatives because *you* say so?

Does that mean that the millions of minorities in the USA are white supremacists? That the millions of American women are misogynists? The millions of people who brought an end to the Vietnam war are war mongers?

Xenophobe much?


quote:

ORIGINAL: YN


quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

Did you seriously just compare the ramblings of some internet trolls to the norm for an entire nation? I'd like to see your critical thinking explicated on that.




He speaks the neo-conservative plank which was one of the core tenets of your Bush regime, a group elected twice by your country and on the neo-conservative plank, which was also endorsed by the corporate democrats in the United States. As such his words ansd his thinking is far more then the ramblings of an" internet troll."






The United States elected the Bush neo-conservative Bush administration, not once but twice by popular vote. You cannot pretend this was the result of "internet trolls" or some fringe group.





So not appreciating imperialists marching across others lands is xenophobic? Most the world is xenophobic then.

(in reply to Powergamz1)
Profile   Post #: 199
RE: Anarchy & Hegemony: A defense of American Imperialism - 4/29/2013 1:53:10 PM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

what is the difference between mafia family/families, their operation and aristocratic family/families and their operation? Do they not both form a government of sorts, among themselves and those they claim to have jurisdiction over, "their" exploitation turf, and do they not both abolish individual freedom under the guise of "forced services" and protection racket?

Okay. Perhaps inequality is endemic to social organization of any sort.

So what do you offer as the anarchist paradise?

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 200
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