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RE: Anarchy & Hegemony: A defense of American Imperialism - 4/29/2013 1:55:37 PM   
YN


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

And this is what you consider to be the real cause of the downfall of the Japanese? Most the rest of the world thinks it was the Russians taking back ther lands the Japanese had seized from Russia fifty years earlier.

Ah, so now you speak for the "rest of the world." Your hubris is off-putting to say the least.

quote:

Nobody doubts both the United States and the Soviet Union both went into the imperialistic hegemonic mode during the cCold War, however neither one was particularly engaged in imperialistc activities prior to WW2.

Not everyone agrees with you, all-knowing one:

Now Robert Gellately uses recently uncovered documents to make clear that, in fact, the dictator was an unwavering revolutionary merely biding his time, determined as ever to establish Communist regimes across Europe and beyond, and that his actions during these years (and the poorly calculated Western responses) set in motion what would eventually become the Cold War. Gellately takes us behind the scenes. We see the dictator disguising his political ambitions and prioritizing the future of Communism, even as he pursued the war against Hitler. http://www.randomhouse.com/book/58946/stalins-curse-by-robert-gellately


Apparently nobody here agrees with your desires for world United States hegemony, in spite of your diligent efforts to justify and promote it.

(in reply to vincentML)
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RE: Anarchy & Hegemony: A defense of American Imperialism - 4/29/2013 2:13:44 PM   
YN


Posts: 699
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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

Well your voting machine problems are an internal security matter, but the principle is that your president, like ours, wins by a majority vote.

Historically, you are incorrect. Lincoln in 1860, Hayes in 1876, and Clinton in 1992 did not win the popular vote. FAIL!


So now your defense of the neo-conservatives led by George Bush and the United States imperialism that followed, is reduced to the point that Bush was not elected by the United States public?

That is an internal security matter, did not one or more of his presidential elections go to your highest court?

I suppose the wide range of the members of your legislature who also ascribed to the neo-conservative doctrines, from both your political parties were also not elected properly. If so that too is an internal security matter.

And more importantly, if as you say, these imperialists do not reflect the popular views of the United States public, as you and Powergamez appear to claim, then why are you advocating "a defense American imperialism?"


(in reply to vincentML)
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RE: Anarchy & Hegemony: A defense of American Imperialism - 4/29/2013 2:21:18 PM   
YN


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Perhaps the United States should practice internally the hegemonic scheme Vincent promotes and appoint one state (say Texas) to "keep order" among the other 49 with nuclear weapons and armies, an internal "CIA" authorized to promote coups and conduct assassinations and such, since he sees the anarchy that will result without some policeman as some great danger.

You have drones too.

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 203
RE: Anarchy & Hegemony: A defense of American Imperialism - 4/29/2013 3:02:22 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: YN

Perhaps the United States should practice internally the hegemonic scheme Vincent promotes and appoint one state (say Texas) to "keep order" among the other 49 with nuclear weapons and armies, an internal "CIA" authorized to promote coups and conduct assassinations and such, since he sees the anarchy that will result without some policeman as some great danger.

You have drones too.

We already have a hegemonic scheme that has served our Union quite well. It is the Supremacy of Federal Law and the power to enforce it as demonstrated in 1861-65. Please hide away your lack of knowledge of my country.

(in reply to YN)
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RE: Anarchy & Hegemony: A defense of American Imperialism - 4/29/2013 3:07:58 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

So now your defense of the neo-conservatives led by George Bush and the United States imperialism that followed, is reduced to the point that Bush was not elected by the United States public?

Your eyes are failing you, sir. Where did I mention anything about George Bush or defend the neo-conservative policy? Nowhere.

Furthermore, the realpolitik proposed by Kaplan is of the realistic school of political theory. Neoconsevatism is an idealistic dream. They are quite polar opposites.

(in reply to YN)
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RE: Anarchy & Hegemony: A defense of American Imperialism - 4/29/2013 3:15:58 PM   
YN


Posts: 699
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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: YN

Perhaps the United States should practice internally the hegemonic scheme Vincent promotes and appoint one state (say Texas) to "keep order" among the other 49 with nuclear weapons and armies, an internal "CIA" authorized to promote coups and conduct assassinations and such, since he sees the anarchy that will result without some policeman as some great danger.

You have drones too.

We already have a hegemonic scheme that has served our Union quite well. It is the Supremacy of Federal Law and the power to enforce it as demonstrated in 1861-65. Please hide away your lack of knowledge of my country.



And you are not able to differentiate that from putting Rick Perry and Texas in charge of keeping anarchy out of the United States. Nobody on the planet wants your imperialism and hegemony, why don't you practice what you preach on your own soil.


(in reply to vincentML)
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RE: Anarchy & Hegemony: A defense of American Imperialism - 4/29/2013 3:16:04 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

And more importantly, if as you say, these imperialists do not reflect the popular views of the United States public, as you and Powergamez appear to claim, then why are you advocating "a defense American imperialism?"

Kaplan advocated hegemony, American or not, to buffer against international anarchy. I only wrote a rather catchy headline to draw readers to my thread. I would happily see America withdraw our troops from the world. I know pretty well the history of American interference in others' internal affairs, and it is not to my liking. I do not need tutoring from you on that topic, tyvm.

(in reply to YN)
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RE: Anarchy & Hegemony: A defense of American Imperialism - 4/29/2013 3:17:43 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: YN


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: YN

Perhaps the United States should practice internally the hegemonic scheme Vincent promotes and appoint one state (say Texas) to "keep order" among the other 49 with nuclear weapons and armies, an internal "CIA" authorized to promote coups and conduct assassinations and such, since he sees the anarchy that will result without some policeman as some great danger.

You have drones too.

We already have a hegemonic scheme that has served our Union quite well. It is the Supremacy of Federal Law and the power to enforce it as demonstrated in 1861-65. Please hide away your lack of knowledge of my country.



And you are not able to differentiate that from putting Rick Perry and Texas in charge of keeping anarchy out of the United States. Nobody on the planet wants your imperialism and hegemony, why don't you practice what you preach on your own soil.



One state would not have the resources to accomplish such a task. It is an idiotic suggestion.

(in reply to YN)
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RE: Anarchy & Hegemony: A defense of American Imperialism - 4/29/2013 3:18:22 PM   
YN


Posts: 699
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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

So now your defense of the neo-conservatives led by George Bush and the United States imperialism that followed, is reduced to the point that Bush was not elected by the United States public?

Your eyes are failing you, sir. Where did I mention anything about George Bush or defend the neo-conservative policy? Nowhere.

Furthermore, the realpolitik proposed by Kaplan is of the realistic school of political theory. Neoconsevatism is an idealistic dream. They are quite polar opposites.



Your OP and thread was a defense of neo-conservatism. You should have sought employment with the Bush Administration.

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 209
RE: Anarchy & Hegemony: A defense of American Imperialism - 4/29/2013 3:19:30 PM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: YN


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

And this is what you consider to be the real cause of the downfall of the Japanese? Most the rest of the world thinks it was the Russians taking back ther lands the Japanese had seized from Russia fifty years earlier.

Ah, so now you speak for the "rest of the world." Your hubris is off-putting to say the least.

quote:

Nobody doubts both the United States and the Soviet Union both went into the imperialistic hegemonic mode during the cCold War, however neither one was particularly engaged in imperialistc activities prior to WW2.

Not everyone agrees with you, all-knowing one:

Now Robert Gellately uses recently uncovered documents to make clear that, in fact, the dictator was an unwavering revolutionary merely biding his time, determined as ever to establish Communist regimes across Europe and beyond, and that his actions during these years (and the poorly calculated Western responses) set in motion what would eventually become the Cold War. Gellately takes us behind the scenes. We see the dictator disguising his political ambitions and prioritizing the future of Communism, even as he pursued the war against Hitler. http://www.randomhouse.com/book/58946/stalins-curse-by-robert-gellately


Apparently nobody here agrees with your desires for world United States hegemony, in spite of your diligent efforts to justify and promote it.

A failed reply to my contest of your assumption of Stalin's purity.

(in reply to YN)
Profile   Post #: 210
RE: Anarchy & Hegemony: A defense of American Imperialism - 4/29/2013 3:20:38 PM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: YN


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

So now your defense of the neo-conservatives led by George Bush and the United States imperialism that followed, is reduced to the point that Bush was not elected by the United States public?

Your eyes are failing you, sir. Where did I mention anything about George Bush or defend the neo-conservative policy? Nowhere.

Furthermore, the realpolitik proposed by Kaplan is of the realistic school of political theory. Neoconsevatism is an idealistic dream. They are quite polar opposites.



Your OP and thread was a defense of neo-conservatism. You should have sought employment with the Bush Administration.

Only in your continued ignorance and denial of Kaplan's thesis.

(in reply to YN)
Profile   Post #: 211
RE: Anarchy & Hegemony: A defense of American Imperialism - 4/29/2013 3:22:27 PM   
YN


Posts: 699
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: YN


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: YN

Perhaps the United States should practice internally the hegemonic scheme Vincent promotes and appoint one state (say Texas) to "keep order" among the other 49 with nuclear weapons and armies, an internal "CIA" authorized to promote coups and conduct assassinations and such, since he sees the anarchy that will result without some policeman as some great danger.

You have drones too.

We already have a hegemonic scheme that has served our Union quite well. It is the Supremacy of Federal Law and the power to enforce it as demonstrated in 1861-65. Please hide away your lack of knowledge of my country.



And you are not able to differentiate that from putting Rick Perry and Texas in charge of keeping anarchy out of the United States. Nobody on the planet wants your imperialism and hegemony, why don't you practice what you preach on your own soil.



One state would not have the resources to accomplish such a task. It is an idiotic suggestion.


Like your position of the United States being the world's police force is sane?

I simply reduced your arguments to your own nation. You did not listen when it was pointed out the Romans could not afford to do this thing, the Spanish could not afford it, nor could the English or the French. Perhaps California could rule the United States, test your theory at home.

(in reply to vincentML)
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RE: Anarchy & Hegemony: A defense of American Imperialism - 4/29/2013 3:32:32 PM   
vincentML


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Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

Like your position of the United States being the world's police force is sane?

That is not the neoconservative position.

This is the neocon position: Neoconservatism is also described as a faction of American conservatism that includes endorsement of political individualism, is critical of the so-called welfare state, applauds free markets and advocates "assertive" promotion of democracy, and American national interest in international affairs including by military means

Kaplan advocates the realpolitik position that a sovereign power buffers against anarchy in international politics.

You have been spouting the same nonsense throughout this thread like a spinning tire stuck in mud. You insist on putting thoughts and words into my head and mouth which are not there. A civil conversation with you seems hopeless.

ciao

(in reply to YN)
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RE: Anarchy & Hegemony: A defense of American Imperialism - 4/29/2013 3:46:46 PM   
YN


Posts: 699
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

Like your position of the United States being the world's police force is sane?

That is not the neoconservative position.

This is the neocon position: Neoconservatism is also described as a faction of American conservatism that includes endorsement of political individualism, is critical of the so-called welfare state, applauds free markets and advocates "assertive" promotion of democracy, and American national interest in international affairs including by military means

Kaplan advocates the realpolitik position that a sovereign power buffers against anarchy in international politics.

You have been spouting the same nonsense throughout this thread like a spinning tire stuck in mud. You insist on putting thoughts and words into my head and mouth which are not there. A civil conversation with you seems hopeless.

ciao



LOL.

You obviously missed reading their international and foreign policy positions, or the national and the international denunciations of their imperialistic proposals.

Neoconservatism


(in reply to vincentML)
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RE: Anarchy & Hegemony: A defense of American Imperialism - 4/29/2013 3:55:14 PM   
YN


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Only in your continued ignorance and denial of Kaplan's thesis.


Kaplan's "thesis" is lumpenbourgeoisie garbage cranked out in support of the ruling class and its use of your nation's military to support international thievery. Only fools and the ruling classes lackeys believe any of it, even your ruling class who it is written in support of, do not.

It hasn't worked any time in recorded history, does not work now and certainly will not function in the future.

Is that simple enough for you?

(in reply to vincentML)
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RE: Anarchy & Hegemony: A defense of American Imperialism - 4/30/2013 5:55:00 AM   
Zonie63


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From: The Old Pueblo
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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
But, that aside, please tell me an example, other than some hippy commune, where anarchy prevails and maintains peaceful order, where all are errmmm . . . comrades.


The Mafia from the 1920s to 1960s might be an example, even if it wasn't entirely peaceful. But they acted as their own "government" with their own "law" and were generally considered out of reach by those holding more conventional authority (hegemony). I don't think they would fare well under actual anarchism, but they seemed to be the most successful practitioners of it.

Interesting suggestion, Z. But the Mafia families were anything but bastions of equality. I get your point but peace was maintained between families through councils of the bosses. And that broke down from time to time, didn't it. As I understand RO he is suggesting a community of equals living together under some agreed upon laws with only the occasional need to form a posse to enforce those laws. Each Mafia family was rigidly hierarchal I think. They were a limited number of groups. Only five in the New York area that face the dangers of proximity conflicts of interests. Others in Chicago, Kansas City, etc were geographically removed.


You're correct that it was far from a bastion of equality. But on the other hand, no one was in a higher position merely because of birthright either. Everyone had an equal chance to "make their bones" or even get rid of their own boss so that they could become the boss. It didn't matter if you finished school or not, or whether you were born into polite society. A lot of the Mob bosses started out in impoverished neighborhoods - dirt poor, little schooling, and yet, they made it to the top.

I think if a society is small enough where most everyone within it can get together in a single room and discuss how they want to live and what they want to do as a society, then yes, a community of equals can thrive like that. Whether it's a hippie commune or a small community of farmers, then it might survive. It probably would be somewhat primitive. I admire and respect the Amish, but I don't think I'd want to live like that myself. There really wouldn't be any large cities or infrastructure or any communication networks, and to some degree, I can see the attraction of a simpler, more primitive existence. ("We're an anarcho-syndicalist commune. We're taking turns to act as a sort of executive officer for the week.")


(in reply to vincentML)
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RE: Anarchy & Hegemony: A defense of American Imperialism - 4/30/2013 7:06:26 AM   
YN


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The Italian gangster's organization is nakedly feudal in nature, with "Dons" functioning as kings or princes, capos functioning as dukes or counts, and with "made men" functioning as cavaliers or knights. Each ranking owes feudal allegiance to those above it, and functions as vassals, with defined territories and prerogatives, and quasi-military duties. This is entirely deliberate and modeled on the feudal relationships of Italy during the late middle ages. Additionally they have often councils of elder and retired criminals who function as a "privy council" does in a monarchy and who serve as advisers and "kingmakers."

To say they are they are entirely equal is not completely true, anymore than one of my Spanish ancestors (several were cavaliers or what is called knights) could become King of Spain without hopping through the appropriate family and social hoops, it would have been possible, but would take a certain amount of the proper marriages, and so on, making it improbable barring extraordinary circumstance. In the case of the Mafioso, one would need to be an Italian (or Sicilian) with family at least from the proper neighborhood or district, and have the appropriate criminal credentials and social connections inside the criminal community, as well as the necessary leadership abilities and the willingness and ruthlessness to seize the reins at the appropriate time.

To call this organization an anarchy is a misstatement, though police and judicial agencies across the planet certainly wish it were the case, it would make repressing the Italian criminals far easier.

(in reply to Zonie63)
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RE: Anarchy & Hegemony: A defense of American Imperialism - 4/30/2013 8:46:30 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

To call this organization an anarchy is a misstatement, though police and judicial agencies across the planet certainly wish it were the case, it would make repressing the Italian criminals far easier.

To call any organization of humans a functional and egalitarian anarchy is probably futile. I am still waiting for an exemplar from RO. Not holding my breath, however.

On a side note, it is way past time for the lumpenbourgeoisie of Latin America to stop leaning on the convenient imperialism of the United States which was not yet a nation when the white Spanish began their exploitation of black African slave descendents and indigenous people in the 16th C and which continues to this day. Yes, Bolivar set out to free the Africans but then like his recently deceased protege set himself up as "president for life." Latin America has had every opportunity to clean up its own dirty house but poverty and racism continue at nearly the same old pace. Clearly, power disparity is a welcome commodity in Latin America as it is in the North except you have the advantage to play the victim card. Boo hoo.

(in reply to YN)
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RE: Anarchy & Hegemony: A defense of American Imperialism - 4/30/2013 9:58:34 AM   
Powergamz1


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Most of the world is xenophobic. You take it to a new level with your pretense that the least powerful groups in the country who disapprove of the actions of the corrupt government are actually the ones responsible. In so doing you give a pass to the power elite, and carry water for bigoted propaganda.


Quite the trifecta.

quote:

ORIGINAL: YN


quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

OK, just wanted to double check before I wrote anyone off as a xenophobic bigot.
quote:

ORIGINAL: YN

quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

So everyone in America is the same as those posters?
And the millions of people who didn't vote for Bush are now neo-conservatives because *you* say so?

Does that mean that the millions of minorities in the USA are white supremacists? That the millions of American women are misogynists? The millions of people who brought an end to the Vietnam war are war mongers?

Xenophobe much?


quote:

ORIGINAL: YN


quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

Did you seriously just compare the ramblings of some internet trolls to the norm for an entire nation? I'd like to see your critical thinking explicated on that.




He speaks the neo-conservative plank which was one of the core tenets of your Bush regime, a group elected twice by your country and on the neo-conservative plank, which was also endorsed by the corporate democrats in the United States. As such his words ansd his thinking is far more then the ramblings of an" internet troll."






The United States elected the Bush neo-conservative Bush administration, not once but twice by popular vote. You cannot pretend this was the result of "internet trolls" or some fringe group.





So not appreciating imperialists marching across others lands is xenophobic? Most the world is xenophobic then.



_____________________________

"DOMA is unconstitutional as a deprivation of the equal liberty of persons that is protected by the Fifth Amendment" Anthony McLeod Kennedy

" About damn time...wooot!!' Me

(in reply to YN)
Profile   Post #: 219
RE: Anarchy & Hegemony: A defense of American Imperialism - 4/30/2013 10:07:01 AM   
YN


Posts: 699
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

To call this organization an anarchy is a misstatement, though police and judicial agencies across the planet certainly wish it were the case, it would make repressing the Italian criminals far easier.

To call any organization of humans a functional and egalitarian anarchy is probably futile. I am still waiting for an exemplar from RO. Not holding my breath, however.

On a side note, it is way past time for the lumpenbourgeoisie of Latin America to stop leaning on the convenient imperialism of the United States which was not yet a nation when the white Spanish began their exploitation of black African slave descendents and indigenous people in the 16th C and which continues to this day. Yes, Bolivar set out to free the Africans but then like his recently deceased protege set himself up as "president for life." Latin America has had every opportunity to clean up its own dirty house but poverty and racism continue at nearly the same old pace. Clearly, power disparity is a welcome commodity in Latin America as it is in the North except you have the advantage to play the victim card. Boo hoo.



LOL. No doubt your imperialistic and Eurocentric ambitions include cleaning up the mess the ignorant brown savages to your south made of the fine corporate opportunities here. Imperialistic Yankee misadventures in Nicaragua, Guatemala, El Salvador, Columbia, Venezuela, Cuba, Argentina, Peru, Ecuador, Panama, Honduras, and Chile certainly won't deter a advocate of "American" exceptionalism like yourself, any more than it deterred yiur European mentors a century ago.

But it is more interesting you worry about the racism here, myself being a mixture of Spanish, German, Maya, Fillipino, East African, Jewish, Moorish Muslim (both from converios) at least and this is typical of the population. And yes all slaves were deemed free men and women for all time as the result of our revolt against the Spanish, a lesson your founding fathers might have learned.

Perhaps you would be better served by using your resources to clean up your own nation, than to steal from us. Your record indicates you do poorly at the latterr, in spite of your best efforts.

(BTW if you do not wish the irony meters to explode, you might look up the definition of lumpen bourgeoisie before you use the term, we generally use it as a term of contempt for a "wannabee" local European.

quote:

Lumpenbourgeoisie is a term most often attributed to Andre Gunder Frank in 1972 to describe a type of a middle class and upper class (merchants, lawyers, industrialists, etc.; one that has little collective self-awareness or economic base and who supports the colonial masters. - Wiki


It rather accurately describes the United States version as well, most who pretend they are "leftest" while parroting the Eurocentric imperialistic line. Get a mirror, you can inspect one with it.

And good luck with your Latin American "backyard," your future adventures here will be even more painful and profitless then the last century of missteps have been.

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 220
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