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(BTW if you do not wish the irony meters to explode, you might look up the definition of lumpen bourgeoisie before you use the term, we generally use it as a term of contempt for a "wannabee" local European.

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But it is more interesting you worry about the racism here, myself being a mixture of Spanish, German, Maya, Fillipino, East African, Jewish, Moorish Muslim (both from converios) at least and this is typical of the population. And yes all slaves were deemed free men and women for all time as the result of our revolt against the Spanish, a lesson your founding fathers might have learned.

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

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(BTW if you do not wish the irony meters to explode, you might look up the definition of lumpen bourgeoisie before you use the term, we generally use it as a term of contempt for a "wannabee" local European.

Oh, I understand very well what it means. I also understand it is a label you place upon the power structure in your own land which you cannot dislodge and so need a fiction to justify your historical impotence.

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But it is more interesting you worry about the racism here, myself being a mixture of Spanish, German, Maya, Fillipino, East African, Jewish, Moorish Muslim (both from converios) at least and this is typical of the population. And yes all slaves were deemed free men and women for all time as the result of our revolt against the Spanish, a lesson your founding fathers might have learned.

So you are 1/7th of this and 1/7th of that but bottom line you are obviously educated and literate and highly unlikely living in an impoverished urban barrio or out in a countryside village with little amenities. You bear the guilt of the profiteering your ancestors and maybe your recent family reaped from the exploitation of los indios. It is a heavy burden. Stop making excuses for your own white greed by casting blame to the north and to Europe. Own your guilt. As we do.

It is true our Founders were slave holders and no acceptable apology can be made for them. It is also true that Simon freed the blacks so to get military support from Haiti. And despite there were only maybe 25,000 blacks enslaved in Venezuela back one hundred fifty years ago they are still struggling to gain social and political equality. Even after promises from Chavez.

It is true that racial and indigenous inequality/poverty remain an unsolved blemish in my country. It is the wound that never heals. But we both know the problem is also wide spread in Latin America. Even in Cuban society which Hugo held up as an exemplar.

So, I don't give a fig what your own racial mixture is and I find it amusing that you feel the need to justify yourself by reciting your ancestry. The fact is that the educated descendents of Spain continue to exploit and ignore the plight of los indios despite promises made by Hugo a dozen years ago. The blacks and indigenous remain impoverished regardless of the healthcare assistance Chavez provided. You share the guilt of your European ancestors. And you try to deflect it by pointing at my country. A sham.

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ORIGINAL: YN

The principle was that hegemony and imperialism did not stop the Nazis nor the Japanese. The European empires folded like paper when faced with the AXIS.

The Russians brought the Germans down and the United States brought the Japanese down. Neither Russia nor the United States had empires at the time, nor did either pretend to strive for world hegemony.

The English, French, and Dutch, each of whom had large colonial empires, and had attempted European hegemony over the world were subjugated and many of their colonial lands conquered, and only saved by Soviet and United States forces entering battle with/against the AXIS.

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ORIGINAL: Zonie63

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ORIGINAL: vincentML
But, that aside, please tell me an example, other than some hippy commune, where anarchy prevails and maintains peaceful order, where all are errmmm . . . comrades.

The Mafia from the 1920s to 1960s might be an example, even if it wasn't entirely peaceful. But they acted as their own "government" with their own "law" and were generally considered out of reach by those holding more conventional authority (hegemony). I don't think they would fare well under actual anarchism, but they seemed to be the most successful practitioners of it.

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As I understand RO he is suggesting a community of equals living together under some agreed upon laws with only the occasional need to form a posse to enforce those laws

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ORIGINAL: egern

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ORIGINAL: Zonie63

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ORIGINAL: vincentML
But, that aside, please tell me an example, other than some hippy commune, where anarchy prevails and maintains peaceful order, where all are errmmm . . . comrades.

The Mafia from the 1920s to 1960s might be an example, even if it wasn't entirely peaceful. But they acted as their own "government" with their own "law" and were generally considered out of reach by those holding more conventional authority (hegemony). I don't think they would fare well under actual anarchism, but they seemed to be the most successful practitioners of it.

So what is 'actual anarchism'? No one seems willing to offer a definition, or else I missed it.

As far as I know, the mafia is and was one of the most controlled and disciplined organizations in existence.

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ORIGINAL: YN

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ORIGINAL: Politesub53

You just dont want to face facts. You accuse all Europeans and Americans from benefitting from colonialism, yet absolve your own ancestry. That seems hypocritical.

Your political stance blinkers your viewpoint. Its a case of, what did the Romans ever do for us.

I have no problems with you being a hypocrite but dont expect me to stop pointing it out any time soon.

So you think the people of Latin American only reject United States and Western European imperialism because they are some part European and feel guilt over European and United States ancestry; and five century spell of slavery, genocide, colonization, mining harbors, regime changes, invasions, assassinations, CIA sponsored death squads, corporate exploitation at gunpoint, etc. have nothing to do with it?

Amazing.

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The perception is that the elite ruling class in Latin American countries are using America and Europe as a scapegoat to misdirect their peasants so that their peasants will be mad at America, while the elite within Latin American countries are let off the hook. They can have their cake and eat it, too. That's what it looks like.

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And as where you think that because I can understand your language and communicate in English that this makes me overeducated, European and wealthy by your imaginings of Latin America; a section of our country speaks Creole English (the descendants of escaped and freed Jamaican slaves in large part), never mind the fact that probably a quarter of Central Americans can also speak your tongue. Is being bilingual a sign of wealth and extensive education in the United States?

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ORIGINAL: YN



You worked hard and spend a lot of your blood and treasure to earn the "xenophobia" directed at the United States government and your ruling class in the Latin Americas. But it is nice to see your champions like Vincent and his mentor Kaplan are not resting on their laurels.

No doubt you think the Iraqis are "xenophobic" for not wanting your troops in their nation as well.

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ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

Spare me the projection, your comments were very specifically directed at the least powerful people in America, at our minorities, at our poor, at those who didn't vote for Bush, much less Teddy Roosevelt.

I asked you repeatedly if that was the case or of you only meant the leadership, and you repeatedly confirmed that you meant everyone in America.

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ORIGINAL: YN



You worked hard and spend a lot of your blood and treasure to earn the "xenophobia" directed at the United States government and your ruling class in the Latin Americas. But it is nice to see your champions like Vincent and his mentor Kaplan are not resting on their laurels.

No doubt you think the Iraqis are "xenophobic" for not wanting your troops in their nation as well.

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My post you are complaining of #182:
The United States elected the Bush neo-conservative Bush administration, not once but twice by popular vote. You cannot pretend this was the result of "internet trolls" or some fringe group.

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

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And as where you think that because I can understand your language and communicate in English that this makes me overeducated, European and wealthy by your imaginings of Latin America; a section of our country speaks Creole English (the descendants of escaped and freed Jamaican slaves in large part), never mind the fact that probably a quarter of Central Americans can also speak your tongue. Is being bilingual a sign of wealth and extensive education in the United States?

Probably the three quarters who cannot have been deprived of a rudimentary education even in their own language and remain in a feudal status to the large land owners and miners who use their labor for pennies. The cause of poverty and ignorance of indigenous people in Latin America is widespread and cannot be laid at the doorstep of the United States. And what's next? Setting up an imitation of the EU with your own single currency . . . so the banks can rape your people more efficiently? Look inward. Own your own faults.

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ok vince here is the million dollar question for you

you are tooling along and you want to find a place to live that is NOT in "substance" under or devised from a feudal tenure scheme, what would you look for?

Here is a site you can look at that gives you some information but not the answers, you have to use your knowledge to derive the answers from the information given. Well I suppose it really does give the answers in a manner of speaking.

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ORIGINAL: YN

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ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

Spare me the projection, your comments were very specifically directed at the least powerful people in America, at our minorities, at our poor, at those who didn't vote for Bush, much less Teddy Roosevelt.

I asked you repeatedly if that was the case or of you only meant the leadership, and you repeatedly confirmed that you meant everyone in America.

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ORIGINAL: YN

You worked hard and spend a lot of your blood and treasure to earn the "xenophobia" directed at the United States government and your ruling class in the Latin Americas. But it is nice to see your champions like Vincent and his mentor Kaplan are not resting on their laurels.

No doubt you think the Iraqis are "xenophobic" for not wanting your troops in their nation as well.

quote:

My post you are complaining of #182:
The United States elected the Bush neo-conservative Bush administration, not once but twice by popular vote. You cannot pretend this was the result of "internet trolls" or some fringe group.

So criticism directed at the neo-conservative Bush administration (and at Reagan's and Bush's father's, along with Nixon's administrations) consists of the criticism directed "least powerful people in America, at our minorities, at our poor." Presumably this means the US Democrats represents your ruling class elites.

Nice try, but nobody on the planet thinks the Republican party represents minorities, the poor and the downtrodden in the United States.

We enjoyed having your president here yesterday , even though he obviously doesn't represent either the right or the left in your country, judging from the posts here.

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ORIGINAL: Zonie63

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ORIGINAL: egern

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ORIGINAL: Zonie63

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ORIGINAL: vincentML
But, that aside, please tell me an example, other than some hippy commune, where anarchy prevails and maintains peaceful order, where all are errmmm . . . comrades.

The Mafia from the 1920s to 1960s might be an example, even if it wasn't entirely peaceful. But they acted as their own "government" with their own "law" and were generally considered out of reach by those holding more conventional authority (hegemony). I don't think they would fare well under actual anarchism, but they seemed to be the most successful practitioners of it.

So what is 'actual anarchism'? No one seems willing to offer a definition, or else I missed it.

As far as I know, the mafia is and was one of the most controlled and disciplined organizations in existence.

I would say anarchism refers to a philosophy without an actual government or state, which is essentially how the Mafia functioned. Those who worked within the system or played by the government's rules were considered "pezzonovante" and not given any consideration at all.

The point I was making was that there is some irony in the fact that Mafia typically considered themselves above the government and above the law - but in order to survive, they needed to control government to some extent and use it for their own ends. Mario Puzo once wrote that a single lawyer with a briefcase can steal more than a hundred men armed with machine guns. Under anarchism, there wouldn't be much to steal.