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Seperation church and state - 4/26/2013 4:40:37 AM   
egern


Posts: 537
Joined: 1/11/2013
Status: offline 		http://www.care2.com/causes/student-protests-abstinence-only-assembly-gets-threatened-by-principal.html#comment-4974707

"Such were the remarks of Pam Stenzel’s talk with students at George Washington high school in West Virginia at an assembly advertised as “God’s plan for sexual purity.”

It cost between $4,000-$6,000 dollars to bring Stenzel to the school to yell, berate and shame students about the consequences of having sex. To make matters worse, much of the information she provided was completely false like condoms aren’t safe and every sexual contact will lead to an STD or infertility."

Also, you are apparently not allowed to talk about it.

What I do not understand is, if church and state is separated as it is in US, how can this be legal??

Ironically, in Denmark state and church is not separated, but nothing like this ever happens..
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RE: Seperation church and state - 4/26/2013 4:58:08 AM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline 		Remember kids. Only the lefties are involved in 'indoctrination'.

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Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

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RE: Seperation church and state - 4/26/2013 5:25:56 AM   
muhly22222


Posts: 463
Joined: 3/25/2010
Status: offline 		While church and state are not actually separated in the U.S. (that's the commonly-quoted line, but it's not the test that is applied by the courts), this does have major constitutional concerns.

It may be legal if it was an optional assembly (the article did say the student opted to not attend).

I'm more concerned about the principal's behavior, though. Threatening a student's future, spending taxpayer money (I assume, anyway...I suppose a private group could have paid for it) on a speaker who did nothing to add to the intellectual environment of the school...these are things a principal shouldn't be doing. Ever.

_____________________________

I have always been among those who believed that the greatest freedom of speech was the greatest safety, because if a man is a fool, the best thing to do is to encourage him to advertise the fact by speaking.
-Woodrow Wilson

(in reply to egern)
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RE: Seperation church and state - 4/26/2013 5:27:00 AM   
DaddySatyr


Posts: 9381
Joined: 8/29/2011
From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
Status: offline 		Could you, please, show me where "seperation of church and state" appears in our constitution?



Peace and comfort,



Michael

_____________________________

A Stone in My Shoe

Screen captures (and pissing on shadows) still RULE! Ya feel me?

"For that which I love, I will do horrible things"

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RE: Separation church and state - 4/26/2013 5:32:32 AM   
kalikshama


Posts: 14805
Joined: 8/8/2010
Status: offline 		Students Deserve Comprehensive Sex Education & Right to Free Speech

Target: Kanawha County of West Virginia Board of Education

Sponsored by: Ximena Ramirez

“If you take birth control, your mother probably hates you.”

“I could look at any one of you in the eyes right now and tell if you’re going to be promiscuous.”

Such were the remarks of Pam Stenzel’s talk with students at George Washington high school in West Virginia at an assembly advertised as “God’s plan for sexual purity.”

When student body vice president Katelyn Campbell spoke out against the abstinence-only assembly her principal George Aulenbacher threatened to call the college where she’s been accepted to report that she has “bad character.”

Tell the Kanawha County of West Virginia Board of Education that students like Katelyn have the right to speak out about they believe in without fear of retaliation and that students deserve comprehensive sexuality education to make informed decisions about their sexual health.

Sign the petition: http://www.thepetitionsite.com/623/563/033/students-deserve-comprehensive-sex-education-right-to-free-speech/#sign

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RE: Separation church and state - 4/26/2013 5:38:25 AM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama
When student body vice president Katelyn Campbell spoke out against the abstinence-only assembly her principal George Aulenbacher threatened to call the college where she’s been accepted to report that she has “bad character.”

so his/their solution is to blackmail her into being quiet? wow.. its not her that has the "bad character"...

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RE: Seperation church and state - 4/26/2013 5:45:52 AM   
FrostedFlake


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Joined: 3/4/2009
From: Centralia, Washington
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

Could you, please, show me where "seperation of church and state" appears in our constitution?



Peace and comfort,



Michael

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Establishment_Clause

_____________________________

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simul justus et peccator
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RE: Seperation church and state - 4/26/2013 5:54:20 AM   
DaddySatyr


Posts: 9381
Joined: 8/29/2011
From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FrostedFlake


quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

Could you, please, show me where "seperation of church and state" appears in our constitution?



Peace and comfort,



Michael

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Establishment_Clause


I didn't see that phrase, anywhere. Sorry.

Here's a hint; Try: "Thomas Jefferson Letter to Rev ..."

You'll find the phrase in President Jefferson's correspondance with a New England Fundementalist minister but you won't find it in the constitution.



Peace and comfort,



Michael


< Message edited by DaddySatyr -- 4/26/2013 5:55:01 AM >

_____________________________

A Stone in My Shoe

Screen captures (and pissing on shadows) still RULE! Ya feel me?

"For that which I love, I will do horrible things"

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RE: Seperation church and state - 4/26/2013 6:54:08 AM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline 		Why is it that a lot of those who wish to wipe their ass with the 2nd Amendment desire to use the broadest possible interpretation of the first and many of those who wish to use the broadest possible interpretation of the second would to wipe their ass with the first?

ETA. If that person pressing her moral/religious beliefs on children in a SCHOOL were a Muslim, I wonder how many of those who would post on here supporting a Christian would be screaming "FIRST AMENDMENT VIOLATION".

< Message edited by Hillwilliam -- 4/26/2013 6:58:46 AM >

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to DaddySatyr)
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RE: Seperation church and state - 4/26/2013 8:06:55 AM   
FunCouple5280


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

Why is it that a lot of those who wish to wipe their ass with the 2nd Amendment desire to use the broadest possible interpretation of the first and many of those who wish to use the broadest possible interpretation of the second would to wipe their ass with the first?

ETA. If that person pressing her moral/religious beliefs on children in a SCHOOL were a Muslim, I wonder how many of those who would post on here supporting a Christian would be screaming "FIRST AMENDMENT VIOLATION".





(in reply to Hillwilliam)
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RE: Seperation church and state - 4/26/2013 9:05:01 AM   
LafayetteLady


Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline 		I was thinking about that as well.

In some areas, the majority of a student population may very well be devout Christians, and that is fine. This speaker was paid for by a religious group, which would indicate the school, via this group, is pushing one particular religion on the students.

The bigger problem I see is that as a school, their job is to educate. I have no problem with a school having an assembly to discuss abstinence. Quite frankly, I believe that if more teenagers practiced abstinence, they would be better off. However, any speaker they bring in to discuss abstinence must be presenting FACTS as opposed to trying to shame students into it through fear and misinformation. It is a public school paid for by tax dollars, not a private parochial school, although that would still be bad in my opinion.

I would hope that the BOE in the district takes serious action against the principal. Not for bringing the speaker in (although they should consider whether such things are appropriate), but because of his behavior towards the student. When you consider that the principal (and the BOE) approved/approached someone who intentionally presents misinformation and subjects students to being shamed, along with his threats on a student's future for disagreeing with him, he is not fit to teach or be an administrator at all.

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
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RE: Seperation church and state - 4/26/2013 9:25:36 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: muhly22222

While church and state are not actually separated in the U.S. (that's the commonly-quoted line, but it's not the test that is applied by the courts), this does have major constitutional concerns.

It may be legal if it was an optional assembly (the article did say the student opted to not attend).

I'm more concerned about the principal's behavior, though. Threatening a student's future, spending taxpayer money (I assume, anyway...I suppose a private group could have paid for it) on a speaker who did nothing to add to the intellectual environment of the school...these are things a principal shouldn't be doing. Ever.

?
This fails all 3 prongs of Lemon. It was clearly a violation of the 1st.

(in reply to muhly22222)
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RE: Seperation church and state - 4/26/2013 9:29:10 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

I didn't see that phrase, anywhere. Sorry.

Here's a hint; Try: "Thomas Jefferson Letter to Rev ..."

You'll find the phrase in President Jefferson's correspondance with a New England Fundementalist minister but you won't find it in the constitution.

While the words do not appear the concept permeates the entire Constitution. The ban on religious tests, the establishment clause, the 14th amendment and really the whole intent behind the bill of rights is to keep government out of people's private affairs.

(in reply to DaddySatyr)
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RE: Seperation church and state - 4/26/2013 10:33:02 AM   
Zonie63


Posts: 2826
Joined: 4/25/2011
From: The Old Pueblo
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: egern

http://www.care2.com/causes/student-protests-abstinence-only-assembly-gets-threatened-by-principal.html#comment-4974707

"Such were the remarks of Pam Stenzel’s talk with students at George Washington high school in West Virginia at an assembly advertised as “God’s plan for sexual purity.”

It cost between $4,000-$6,000 dollars to bring Stenzel to the school to yell, berate and shame students about the consequences of having sex. To make matters worse, much of the information she provided was completely false like condoms aren’t safe and every sexual contact will lead to an STD or infertility."

Also, you are apparently not allowed to talk about it.

What I do not understand is, if church and state is separated as it is in US, how can this be legal??



I'm wondering about that, too. It should be interesting to see how this plays out. It could be that she's not actually proselytizing or leading a prayer service, so as long as it has some educational value, it could still be legal.

I have to confess I did get a bit of a chuckle out of this line:

quote:

“I could look at any one of you in the eyes right now and tell if you’re going to be promiscuous.”


I can just imagine all the guys in the audience looking around trying to figure out which ones. The Q&A portion must be a real hoot.

(in reply to egern)
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RE: Seperation church and state - 4/26/2013 10:36:50 AM   
FunCouple5280


Posts: 559
Joined: 10/30/2012
Status: offline
quote:

have to confess I did get a bit of a chuckle out of this line:

quote:

“I could look at any one of you in the eyes right now and tell if you’re going to be promiscuous.”


I can just imagine all the guys in the audience looking around trying to figure out which ones. The Q&A portion must be a real hoot.


A couple of kids should have gotten up and started sucking face and flipping her off :). I would like to see that broad come to swingers party, just to see her head explode...

(in reply to Zonie63)
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RE: Seperation church and state - 4/26/2013 11:07:14 AM   
DaddySatyr


Posts: 9381
Joined: 8/29/2011
From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

The bigger problem I see is that as a school, their job is to educate. I have no problem with a school having an assembly to discuss abstinence. Quite frankly, I believe that if more teenagers practiced abstinence, they would be better off. However, any speaker they bring in to discuss abstinence must be presenting FACTS as opposed to trying to shame students into it through fear and misinformation. It is a public school paid for by tax dollars, not a private parochial school, although that would still be bad in my opinion.



Well, it's true that, when I went to school, I used to ride my dinosaur to class but not every assembly was about education.

We had people come to show a completely fucked-up, gory-ass film about the evils of drinking and driving. I could have lived without seeing that motherfucker.

We even had a couple of magicians and the odd hypnotist.

I'm thinking that if the assembly was optional (which it appears it wasn't) and the "FACTS" were presented in a funny way ("Oh, yeah, if you're on the pill, your mom must really love you" kind of said more like Eleen DeGeneres than Sister Mary Theresa), then I don't really have an issue with it.

Text is a horrible medium for discerning what words really mean. I'd like to see video and see if this person was trying to be funny or trying to be a douche canoe.



Peace and comfort,



Michael


_____________________________

A Stone in My Shoe

Screen captures (and pissing on shadows) still RULE! Ya feel me?

"For that which I love, I will do horrible things"

(in reply to LafayetteLady)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: Seperation church and state - 4/26/2013 12:05:28 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr
Text is a horrible medium for discerning what words really mean. I'd like to see video and see if this person was trying to be funny or trying to be a douche canoe.

5 years old but likely similiar
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0ezYNWIDB0
Douche.

(in reply to DaddySatyr)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Seperation church and state - 4/26/2013 12:12:47 PM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline 		RE: "church at school"

I went to elementary school in the late 60's. This was well after the so-called 'no prayer in school' rulings. Guess what. Once a month, we had a chapel program in the gym. it was mandatory.
A minister would come in and preach to the kiddies. Not only were they preaching, there was hard core proselyzing. Children as young as 6 were strongly encouraged to come up on stage and "Accept Christ and be Baptized into his holy word". I SAW IT.

Now, let's sayyyyyyyyyyyy you're Catholic and you ask your child "What did you do in school today?" He says "I was Baptized"

SHITSTORRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM

Now. We have in our constitution the following words. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;"

I ask this question. Is letting the government at taxpayer expense expense arrange for a minister (whether ordained or not) of whatever denomination come into your local school and attempt to convert YOUR child to their religion against your wishes and without your knowledge not prohibiting your "Free exercise thereof"?

Remember. Choosing NOT to practice a religion is "free exercise thereof".

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to DaddySatyr)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Seperation church and state - 4/26/2013 12:20:04 PM   
LafayetteLady


Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63


quote:

ORIGINAL: egern

http://www.care2.com/causes/student-protests-abstinence-only-assembly-gets-threatened-by-principal.html#comment-4974707

"Such were the remarks of Pam Stenzel’s talk with students at George Washington high school in West Virginia at an assembly advertised as “God’s plan for sexual purity.”

It cost between $4,000-$6,000 dollars to bring Stenzel to the school to yell, berate and shame students about the consequences of having sex. To make matters worse, much of the information she provided was completely false like condoms aren’t safe and every sexual contact will lead to an STD or infertility."

Also, you are apparently not allowed to talk about it.

What I do not understand is, if church and state is separated as it is in US, how can this be legal??



I'm wondering about that, too. It should be interesting to see how this plays out. It could be that she's not actually proselytizing or leading a prayer service, so as long as it has some educational value, it could still be legal.

I have to confess I did get a bit of a chuckle out of this line:

quote:

“I could look at any one of you in the eyes right now and tell if you’re going to be promiscuous.”


I can just imagine all the guys in the audience looking around trying to figure out which ones. The Q&A portion must be a real hoot.



But when the "facts" she is portraying are blatantly wrong or based on opinion (as in the "if you are on the pill" comment), there isn't any educational value.

Sadly, what this woman did probably encouraged more students to have sex than to abstain.

(in reply to Zonie63)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Seperation church and state - 4/26/2013 1:32:27 PM   
FunCouple5280


Posts: 559
Joined: 10/30/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr
Text is a horrible medium for discerning what words really mean. I'd like to see video and see if this person was trying to be funny or trying to be a douche canoe.

5 years old but likely similiar
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0ezYNWIDB0
Douche.



I'll see your Douche Canoe, and rasie you the comedy of Penn & Teller:)
BullSh!t lol

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 20
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