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RE: LocknLoad March on Washington - 5/7/2013 6:57:20 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
BATF/FBI/DHS may just decide to infiltrate the group. Easy enough to do, just show up with a gun. Guess who would be most likely to touch a blank off into the air to instigate problems. If you guessed BATF, you win a SEEGAR.


It's peculiar to me, in a way, that people don't factor in the possibility of the involvement of agents provocateurs. It's a perfectly logical political tactic that makes tremendous use of very few resources. One man on a demonstration like this can lead to the whole event being turned to enormous advantage by those who oppose the march. People are often more inclined to believe in Martians or even the zombie apocalypse before they're ready to believe in political agents provocateurs. Odd.

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RE: LocknLoad March on Washington - 5/7/2013 7:54:10 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Doesn't mean the current protesters were "for" the abuses of Bush, but that the abuses of Bush didn't put us over the top of that high water mark.

I'm dubious that either clause there is actually true, if I'm honest.


You have the right to remain si- ... sorry, wrong line.... you have the right to your opinion. We don't agree, though.


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Profile   Post #: 22
RE: LocknLoad March on Washington - 5/7/2013 8:39:11 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

A few points.

1. It's Misguided. He is protesting in DC so it is presumably against the federal govt's nonexistent confiscation.
Here's the problem. He will run afoul of LOCAL laws and cops. As long as he doesn't get anywhere near the Prez, the feds probably won't give a shit. The DC mayor, on the other hand, will take it personally and call out his cops. if they're poorly trained (a hell of a lot of them are) problems could result.

2. BATF/FBI/DHS may just decide to infiltrate the group. Easy enough to do, just show up with a gun. Guess who would be most likely to touch a blank off into the air to instigate problems. If you guessed BATF, you win a SEEGAR.

This would possibly cause the aforementioned firefight because of itchy trigger fingers among the local cops (remember the boat that got shot full of holes with an unarmed terrorist inside? Someone fired the first shot and it doesn't seem to have been him. That leaves itchy trigger fingers and badges.)

BANG, You immediately discredit any person in the US who legally owns a firearm and political pressure will amass toward disarmament.

You have effectively voiced my concerns

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RE: LocknLoad March on Washington - 5/8/2013 5:16:12 AM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Doesn't mean the current protesters were "for" the abuses of Bush, but that the abuses of Bush didn't put us over the top of that high water mark.

I'm dubious that either clause there is actually true, if I'm honest.


You have the right to remain si- ... sorry, wrong line.... you have the right to your opinion. We don't agree, though.


So what, precisely, was the straw that finally broke the camel's back, then?

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Profile   Post #: 24
RE: LocknLoad March on Washington - 5/8/2013 6:11:19 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Doesn't mean the current protesters were "for" the abuses of Bush, but that the abuses of Bush didn't put us over the top of that high water mark.

I'm dubious that either clause there is actually true, if I'm honest.

You have the right to remain si- ... sorry, wrong line.... you have the right to your opinion. We don't agree, though.

So what, precisely, was the straw that finally broke the camel's back, then?


1. I don't know what that straw is for this group.

2. Could it be the recent attempts to pass more gun legislation?


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to Moonhead)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: LocknLoad March on Washington - 5/8/2013 7:56:02 AM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Would you support this event, or not?


I've no idea what Mr. Kokesh is like, or what the people turning up will be like, nor do I live there, so I dunno. This is loud, clear, political speech, so it should ideally be protected unless someone fires a shot. Absent any provocateurs and nutjobs, and also assuming the police are worth their weight in blue, this shouldn't be a problem at all. I thus predict a fifty/fifty chance of disaster.

One thing I do support about the idea of it is: putting people on notice without firing the first shot.

That's so much better than attacking out of the blue.

quote:

Any other thoughts?


9 points for style.

Let's see if the police will score 8 points for professionalism, or 9 points for stupidity.

IWYW,
— Aswad.


_____________________________

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From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: LocknLoad March on Washington - 5/8/2013 8:04:08 AM   
fucktoyprincess


Posts: 2337
Status: offline 		I consider this a bad idea on so many fronts. One that could definitely end badly, not just for those involved, but for innocent bystanders (while I understand the political motivation for choosing July 4, why are they choosing this date when they know the area will be so full of families who could get harmed, especially as they are marching without permission - you do need permission to conduct a march/parade?) They are picking a date that is politically significant but also high risk. One thing is for sure - I'm glad I wasn't planning to be in D.C. on July 4. What annoys me is if they go through with this, some families may be dissuaded from celebrating July 4 with the many events that go on in D.C. that day. How selfish of the marchers - but I guess that's not a big surprise.....

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RE: LocknLoad March on Washington - 5/8/2013 8:30:57 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

This is loud, clear, political speech, so it should ideally be protected unless someone fires a shot.

Aswad. Protected political speech if they had applied for a permit to assemble and march with their loaded guns. Then if rejected they could apply for court rulings to protect their speech. The question raised might be: is carrying a loaded weapon in a parade of protest tantamount to shouting "fire" in a public theatre not on fire. so, quite possibly an exception to protected speech. The city would be wise to go to court for an injunction at this point, I think.

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: LocknLoad March on Washington - 5/8/2013 10:04:13 AM   
fucktoyprincess


Posts: 2337
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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

This is loud, clear, political speech, so it should ideally be protected unless someone fires a shot.

Aswad. Protected political speech if they had applied for a permit to assemble and march with their loaded guns. Then if rejected they could apply for court rulings to protect their speech. The question raised might be: is carrying a loaded weapon in a parade of protest tantamount to shouting "fire" in a public theatre not on fire. so, quite possibly an exception to protected speech. The city would be wise to go to court for an injunction at this point, I think.


I'm not convinced a loaded gun counts as protected speech under the First Amendment. I understand the Second Amendment, but those are separate rights. But I personally don't think they have any First Amendment rights on this.

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Profile   Post #: 29
RE: LocknLoad March on Washington - 5/8/2013 10:11:13 AM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Protected political speech if they had applied for a permit to assemble and march with their loaded guns.


Land of the free indeed... you have to apply for right of assembly now?

Norway has this problem, too, incidentally, so my criticism isn't directed only at the US.

quote:

Then if rejected they could apply for court rulings to protect their speech. The question raised might be: is carrying a loaded weapon in a parade of protest tantamount to shouting "fire" in a public theatre not on fire. so, quite possibly an exception to protected speech. The city would be wise to go to court for an injunction at this point, I think.


It's pretty clearly an expression of a political opinion, and non-violent in principle. What hoops one has to jump through to get that acknowledged isn't my concern. I submit that these people are saying you're at a crossroads, and your reply is that the city should move in one direction, without dialogue, which is going to result in the situation of armed police in DC pointing guns at a mass of armed civilians, with the civilians intent on self expression and the police bound to start hostilities. Hardly a good resolution.

IWYW,
— Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: LocknLoad March on Washington - 5/8/2013 10:24:44 AM   
subrob1967


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Joined: 9/13/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Protected political speech if they had applied for a permit to assemble and march with their loaded guns.


Land of the free indeed... you have to apply for right of assembly now?

Norway has this problem, too, incidentally, so my criticism isn't directed only at the US.

quote:

Then if rejected they could apply for court rulings to protect their speech. The question raised might be: is carrying a loaded weapon in a parade of protest tantamount to shouting "fire" in a public theatre not on fire. so, quite possibly an exception to protected speech. The city would be wise to go to court for an injunction at this point, I think.


It's pretty clearly an expression of a political opinion, and non-violent in principle. What hoops one has to jump through to get that acknowledged isn't my concern. I submit that these people are saying you're at a crossroads, and your reply is that the city should move in one direction, without dialogue, which is going to result in the situation of armed police in DC pointing guns at a mass of armed civilians, with the civilians intent on self expression and the police bound to start hostilities. Hardly a good resolution.

IWYW,
— Aswad.



You have to apply for a permit unless your the unwashed masses of Occupy, then you can squat, and city governments will bend over backwards to accommodate you.


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Profile   Post #: 31
RE: LocknLoad March on Washington - 5/8/2013 10:26:34 AM   
fucktoyprincess


Posts: 2337
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Protected political speech if they had applied for a permit to assemble and march with their loaded guns.


Land of the free indeed... you have to apply for right of assembly now?

Norway has this problem, too, incidentally, so my criticism isn't directed only at the US.

quote:

Then if rejected they could apply for court rulings to protect their speech. The question raised might be: is carrying a loaded weapon in a parade of protest tantamount to shouting "fire" in a public theatre not on fire. so, quite possibly an exception to protected speech. The city would be wise to go to court for an injunction at this point, I think.


It's pretty clearly an expression of a political opinion, and non-violent in principle. What hoops one has to jump through to get that acknowledged isn't my concern. I submit that these people are saying you're at a crossroads, and your reply is that the city should move in one direction, without dialogue, which is going to result in the situation of armed police in DC pointing guns at a mass of armed civilians, with the civilians intent on self expression and the police bound to start hostilities. Hardly a good resolution.

IWYW,
— Aswad.



Aswad, there are what are called "time and place" restrictions on free speech that are permissible, including having to obtain permits. It is a crowed control, safety and noise pollution issue that has been deemed a substantial government interest (and I agree with that). It is simply ridiculous in our major cities to imagine people being able to organize large rallies etc. without some sort of process because otherwise you could continually drive the city to a halt with people protesting everything from vivisection, rights for plant life, etc. Our cities also have to be able to function. btw, a city cannot deny someone a permit on speech grounds - only restrict them in terms of time and place (i.e., no you can't protest at 1 a.m. in a residential area with bullhorns kind of thing).


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Profile   Post #: 32
RE: LocknLoad March on Washington - 5/8/2013 10:42:37 AM   
FunCouple5280


Posts: 559
Joined: 10/30/2012
Status: offline 		Did most occupy groups have such permit?

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Profile   Post #: 33
RE: LocknLoad March on Washington - 5/8/2013 12:51:11 PM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

It's pretty clearly an expression of a political opinion, and non-violent in principle. What hoops one has to jump through to get that acknowledged isn't my concern. I submit that these people are saying you're at a crossroads, and your reply is that the city should move in one direction, without dialogue, which is going to result in the situation of armed police in DC pointing guns at a mass of armed civilians, with the civilians intent on self expression and the police bound to start hostilities. Hardly a good resolution.

The City Administration has a duty to protect its citizens from violence. Our SC has ruled famously that free speech is limited when there exists the possibility of imminent violence. Here we have a possibly explosive situation. The dialogue will take place in the court room unless the armed civilians choose to ignore the court injunction. "Non-violent in principle" in this case is on the edge of the slippery slope into violence. I appreciate your libertarian impulse but here we have conflicting rights: free speech vs civil safety. When rights conflict we have hopefully impartial courts to resolve the issue. A similar issue occurred in Indiana years back when the KKK was denied a permit to march in their white robes. The city cited fear that on-lookers would attack them. The SC held against the city and for the Klan. Constitutional principles are judged on situations. It is not like this armed group were intent on marching along a field were there was no danger to innocent bystanders. They want to hold a parade of their loaded guns across a commonly used bridge and down a main city thoroughfare, so yeh, a permit from the city is the usual procedure. By the way, their route of march takes them past the Lincoln Memeorial. I cannot imagine a more inappropriate expression of threatened disunion and armed rebellion.

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Profile   Post #: 34
RE: LocknLoad March on Washington - 5/8/2013 12:53:15 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

You have to apply for a permit unless your the unwashed masses of Occupy, then you can squat, and city governments will bend over backwards to accommodate you.

Actually, Occupied in NYC was squatting on privately owned land at the tolerence of the owners. The city disbanded the squat when the owners complained.

(in reply to subrob1967)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: LocknLoad March on Washington - 5/8/2013 2:16:04 PM   
fucktoyprincess


Posts: 2337
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

You have to apply for a permit unless your the unwashed masses of Occupy, then you can squat, and city governments will bend over backwards to accommodate you.

Actually, Occupied in NYC was squatting on privately owned land at the tolerence of the owners. The city disbanded the squat when the owners complained.


The owners were actually very cooperative - until the sanitary conditions started to reach a dangerous level and the protestors refused to allow for proper cleaning, upkeep and maintenance of the private land. Understandably, shortly thereafter, the police came in.

Even if it had not been private land their is no First Amendment protection for "indefinite squatting" or taking over of public and/or private property. (It would make a great solution to the homeless problem if it were)....

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Profile   Post #: 36
RE: LocknLoad March on Washington - 5/8/2013 2:20:32 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967

You have to apply for a permit unless your the unwashed masses of Occupy, then you can squat, and city governments will bend over backwards to accommodate you.



Yep, I remember all those occupiers locked and loaded.

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Profile   Post #: 37
RE: LocknLoad March on Washington - 5/8/2013 2:56:09 PM   
fucktoyprincess


Posts: 2337
Status: offline 		p.s. I am pretty sure other loaded open carry protests have taken place. Does anyone have any info on how those were regulated, and/or fared??

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Profile   Post #: 38
RE: LocknLoad March on Washington - 5/8/2013 3:13:58 PM   
FunCouple5280


Posts: 559
Joined: 10/30/2012
Status: offline 		Most I have seen have been holster protests. It is considered by most gunners unnecessary to protest with loaded weapons. While some may have them, they don't advertise it. Just an empty holster. this guy is a douche

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Profile   Post #: 39
RE: LocknLoad March on Washington - 5/8/2013 5:04:09 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
2. Could it be the recent attempts to pass more gun legislation?

Which is why they were showing up armed at events in 2009?

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it's a duck.

These guys didn't bat an eye when the previous administration started torturing and disappearing people. They didn't complain when massive tax cuts and an unneeded war exploded the budget deficit. They didn't take to the streets when an advisor to the President called the Constitution quaint. They claim a politician who is at most just slightly left of center is a socialist, fascist and communist.

What is so special about this President compared to the previous one?

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 40
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