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RE: LocknLoad March on Washington - 5/10/2013 9:21:13 AM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

You seem to neglect the more people you have the more toes there are.


The density of toes matters at least as much as the number, though the figure of merit is usually qualified per capita.

But, yes, you have too many people in many areas, which always diminishes a people.

quote:

I notice your country's population has grown rapidly with a slight decline in the birth rate of native Norwegians. How is that working out? Not snarky. Seriously curious.


I've written about it a bit on the boards already. It creates tensions, certainly.

Native Norwegians are called Saami or Sapmi, and they're analogous to Native Americans, with the county of Finnmark serving as a reservation. The Norse (Germanic) tribes that displaced them are what most associate with Norway, and we make up a majority of the population, but are shrinking slowly, along with all our ethnic European populations. There's about 4 million Europeans in Norway, out of a population of 5 million. The remaining million or so are immigrants, with Pakistani, Somali and Iraqi making up the bulk of those that intend to stay. We expect to take in another million over the next 10 years, and for their birth rates to stay at about 2.6 or so.

At current rates, by the end of the century, ethnic Norwegians will make up 30% of the population of Norway at current rates. Needless to say, that generates some friction and concerns, particularly given that Sunni muslims will be a majority by then, and that a significant number of these continue to advocate Sharia and the like. We have a strong xenophobic streak in our culture as well, which doesn't exactly ease the tensions, nor does the lack of integration or the formation of ghettos bode very well.

I expect a fair bit of trouble if we stay this course, and I expect toes to be blown off along the way, sad to say.

quote:

I don't think I have seen you make such an extreme comment before.


You mean the part about not tolerating the murder of people that haven't killed anyone?

Or the part about how, when an unstoppable force meets an immovable object, debris will result?

quote:

I agree. As I understand it the current protesters' plan is to allow the police to arrest them.


Well, that's certainly a more pacifist option than was indicated earlier, at least.

quote:

Ahhh . . . there are too many photographs still in the minds of some of us geezers depicting armed columns marching into cities such as Paris and through Sweden to your country. People marching with loaded guns? Civilized conduct? I don't think so.


You misread me. I said a peaceful resolution to an armed march into DC would be civilized.

IWYW,
— Aswad.



_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 81
RE: LocknLoad March on Washington - 5/10/2013 9:36:18 AM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Ahhh . . . there are too many photographs still in the minds of some of us geezers depicting armed columns marching into cities such as Paris and through Sweden to your country. People marching with loaded guns? Civilized conduct? I don't think so.


Comparing American gun owners to Nazi soldiers huh? Projecting much?

_____________________________

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Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 82
RE: LocknLoad March on Washington - 5/10/2013 11:27:31 AM   
Fightdirecto


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Status: offline 		Update 5-10-13:

quote:

An Iraq war veteran and Internet talk show host is trying to gather thousands of protesters to march into the District on Independence Day with loaded rifles on their backs.

But if Adam Kokesh follows through with his July 4 plans - 2,500 people have signed up for the cause - he and his makeshift band will be met on the Arlington Memorial Bridge by two police forces packing guns of their own.

Kokesh, 31, and D.C. Police Chief Cathy L. Lanier say they want to work together to ensure a peaceful airing of grievances. But the chief says only one side can have guns: hers. And she’ll have backup from the U.S. Park Police, which will also position officers at the District line.

“If you’re coming here to protest government policy, great,” Lanier said Tuesday on her monthly appearance on NewsChannel 8, reacting to the group’s plan to cross the Potomac River from Arlington National Cemetery. “If you’re coming here to break the law, we’ll take action.”

Lanier added, “There’s a pretty good chance we’ll meet them on the D.C. side of the bridge.”....

Washington allows residents to possess registered firearms on their property but forbids carrying them in public....

Lanier said on the television program that city representatives are willing to meet with Kokesh and other leaders “to facilitate whatever they want to get accomplished in a legal way.” But, she said, “passing into the District with loaded firearms is a violation of the law, and it will be treated as such.”


Washington Post


_____________________________

"I swore never to be silent whenever and wherever human beings endure suffering and humiliation. We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.””
- Ellie Wiesel

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 83
RE: LocknLoad March on Washington - 5/10/2013 11:39:14 AM   
fucktoyprincess


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

So you would see no difference between me holding the weapon and a psychotic person or mass murderer holding the weapon?

quote:

And at least the police have rules about when they are allowed to use their weapon.


As do the civilians. I'm not reassured by rules. I'm reassured by solid people.

Which is not to say I think this march will have too many solid people.

IWYW,
— Aswad.




Ay, there's the rub. The problem is, without personal knowledge of you and your psychological history, and also your psychological state at the particular moment in time when I encounter you, how exactly, does one determine who is psychotic and who is not?? Psychotics, or people driven to a psychotic state by immediate incidents, don't walk around with a sign on them, and aren't, by psychological definitions, necessarily acting in ways that would identify them as such to the casual observer. For example, schizophrenia is a psychotic disease. Trust me, I'm sure you've met schizophrenics and had no idea they were psychotic. Most function extremely well in society.

If we could determine from just looking at someone their propensity to do something violent against us, I'm sure most stranger (meaning victim does not know perp) murder and rapes would not occur. And, it would imply that if you know someone, you could screen for it. But we know this isn't true. Ask people who have been victims of rape or domestic violence if they knew the moment they set their eyes on someone that they had violent and/or criminal tendencies. And yet, you are asking me to do the same when I encounter someone with a loaded gun?

Please explain how I screen for propensity to commit violent and/or criminal acts?

One thing I can say for sure is that someone who does NOT have a loaded gun is not going to shoot me. And that's the only thing I can say with certainty.





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Profile   Post #: 84
RE: LocknLoad March on Washington - 5/10/2013 12:59:18 PM   
LafayetteLady


Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline 		Admittedly, I have not read all 5 pages of this thread. The philosophical bullshit was getting just a bit too deep.

I find it disappointing that most seem to be saying police will fire the first shot or that it will be undercover agents.

Here's what I see as the major problem:

I've no doubt there will be gun enthusiasts, or even just hunters, who will participate in this march believing they are really making a statement. Personally, when I read the OP's link, what I saw was a man attempting to make a declaration of war against the US. So, while there might be some who honestly believe they are going to participate in this "peaceful" act of civil disobedience, I don't understand why people don't seem to realize (except perhaps FTP) how many nutcases with guns would attend also. You know the type I mean....the die hard preppers who probably shoot squirrels out of trees for sport with their buddies and a case of beer (don't even try to claim these people don't exist). These are people who would require little provocation to open fire, and that simply shouldn't be allowed to happen.

I just don't see a goal being a peaceful protest when you bring a gun to the party.

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 85
RE: LocknLoad March on Washington - 5/10/2013 1:23:02 PM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

I find it disappointing that most seem to be saying police will fire the first shot or that it will be undercover agents.




You know the type I mean....the die hard preppers who probably shoot squirrels out of trees for sport

Regarding the first statement. Are you claiming it doesn't happen? If so, how did a boat get filled with bullet holes via a 'firefight' against a terrorist who was later found to not have a gun?

As for the second, squirrels are tasty.

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to LafayetteLady)
Profile   Post #: 86
RE: LocknLoad March on Washington - 5/10/2013 1:29:30 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Ahhh . . . there are too many photographs still in the minds of some of us geezers depicting armed columns marching into cities such as Paris and through Sweden to your country. People marching with loaded guns? Civilized conduct? I don't think so.


Comparing American gun owners to Nazi soldiers huh? Projecting much?

Nope. Just those stupid enough to march on the Capitol with em LockednLoaded.

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 87
RE: LocknLoad March on Washington - 5/10/2013 1:35:32 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

At current rates, by the end of the century, ethnic Norwegians will make up 30% of the population of Norway at current rates. Needless to say, that generates some friction and concerns, particularly given that Sunni muslims will be a majority by then, and that a significant number of these continue to advocate Sharia and the like. We have a strong xenophobic streak in our culture as well, which doesn't exactly ease the tensions, nor does the lack of integration or the formation of ghettos bode very well.

I expect a fair bit of trouble if we stay this course, and I expect toes to be blown off along the way, sad to say.

Loved the times I have visited your country. Gorgeous.

Do you think the ethnic Norwegians will be given a county of their own one day?

I must say I weep for the demise of European culture.

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 88
RE: LocknLoad March on Washington - 5/10/2013 1:38:56 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

Admittedly, I have not read all 5 pages of this thread. The philosophical bullshit was getting just a bit too deep.

OUCH!

(in reply to LafayetteLady)
Profile   Post #: 89
RE: LocknLoad March on Washington - 5/10/2013 2:33:16 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

how exactly, does one determine who is psychotic and who is not??


As a general rule, the average "one" doesn't, unless it's blatant.

So, is the solution then to distrust every fellow citizen at all times?

quote:

Trust me, I'm sure you've met schizophrenics and had no idea they were psychotic. Most function extremely well in society.


I've encountered plenty of schizophrenics that functioned well, but which quickly revealed a characteristic reduction in cognitive coherence on engaging them in conversation. Of course, without controlled blind testing, I can't say how many I've failed to notice, though I can make some guesses based on how many of them seem to pass under the radar for most observers.

quote:

If we could determine from just looking at someone their propensity to do something violent against us, I'm sure most stranger (meaning victim does not know perp) murder and rapes would not occur.


The average person has very limited awareness of the signs, but the signs are usually present (though psychosis and substance abuse can sometimes eliminate or obscure the signs). Whether or not those signs are recognized is a very different matter. Human beings have an amazing sense of empathy, but we don't always learn to use it very well.

quote:

And, it would imply that if you know someone, you could screen for it. But we know this isn't true.


We know humans can't instinctively ride a bicycle. But most can learn.

quote:

Ask people who have been victims of rape or domestic violence if they knew the moment they set their eyes on someone that they had violent and/or criminal tendencies.


Why would you expect the average person to see signs of a situation dependent behavior up front?

quote:

And yet, you are asking me to do the same when I encounter someone with a loaded gun?


No. I'm asking you to show some trust.

quote:

Please explain how I screen for propensity to commit violent and/or criminal acts?


You can start by observing people with a track record of it, or people with the ability to change mindspace at will.

quote:

One thing I can say for sure is that someone who does NOT have a loaded gun is not going to shoot me. And that's the only thing I can say with certainty.


You can't say they don't have a concealed firearm or blade or blunt object, nor evaluate any other force amplification factors. You can, however, say whether or not they appear to be under the influence of drugs (incl. alcohol) or strong emotions that might lead to violence (e.g. rage, fear). With training or instincts, you can say whether they're in the right mindspace for violence. A bunch of different factors, really.

But, sure, we can go the route of just locking everything down so you can feel safe... until someone slips his/her collar.

IWYW,
— Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to fucktoyprincess)
Profile   Post #: 90
RE: LocknLoad March on Washington - 5/10/2013 2:57:37 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Loved the times I have visited your country. Gorgeous.


Thanks. Let me know if you're in the area again and want to catch a beer or something.

quote:

Do you think the ethnic Norwegians will be given a county of their own one day?


Doubtful. We don't have the peaceful coexistence idea in our culture. We assimilate and impose instead. Fortunately, we've been conditioned to become assimilated easily, too, so the bulk of the ethnic Norwegian population will readily adapt to the shift in demographics and culture, while the ones that meaningfully object to cultural suicide will probably all be dead by that time. As the Statistics and Census Bureau put it, there will always be some Norwegians in Norway, but the nation will evolve independently of them.

quote:

I must say I weep for the demise of European culture.


What demise?

IWYW,
— Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 91
RE: LocknLoad March on Washington - 5/10/2013 3:18:59 PM   
Edwynn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

Do you prefer that (to die) to happen as the freest man you can be, or kneeling as deeply as possible?


I consider carrying a weapon in public as the ultimate expression of the fear of death.

I'm not sure as to how that equates to expression of 'freedom' or not.

The very act of 'packing,' as it's referred to in the US, constitutes 'taking a knee' from what I have discerned from those carrying. I want nothing to do with their fear.

I've had the barrel pushed into my head (and face), too.

We survive or we don't survive, my having a weapon on my person at the instance would have made no difference. My lack of fear saved me, and nothing else.


< Message edited by Edwynn -- 5/10/2013 3:38:25 PM >

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RE: LocknLoad March on Washington - 5/10/2013 4:07:05 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

We survive or we don't survive, my having a weapon on my person at the instance would have made no difference. My lack of fear saved me, and nothing else.


I must admit, I've never believed that carrying a gun helps engender a lessening of fear. I did karate for a few years at uni - it didn't make me less afraid, it just gave me a richer and wider understanding of reasons to be fearful.

It seems to me that there's no point in carrying a gun unless you carefully cultivate your fear along with it.

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Profile   Post #: 93
RE: LocknLoad March on Washington - 5/10/2013 4:20:52 PM   
Edwynn


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Please do not mistake my 'lack of fear' as any statement that I might live longer than the average person as result.

The whole point is that I don't care if it all ends tomorrow.

But it wouldn't bother me if the affair extended another 40 years.

Either way, you know.

We all look like ants living for two minutes, after the fact. A good geology class will do that to a person.




< Message edited by Edwynn -- 5/10/2013 4:25:23 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 94
RE: LocknLoad March on Washington - 5/10/2013 4:33:02 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn


Please do not mistake my 'lack of fear' as any statement that I might live longer that the average person as result.



Oh no, that's not my point, Edwynn. My point is that being equipped to defend yourself - by virtue of martial arts training (per myself), or carrying a gun, doesn't actually reduce fear. It can't do - because you need the fear for the weapon (gun or fighting skills) to be of any use. Of course you do, because if you weren't afraid, you'd have no motivation to practise with your gun or fist or foot, thus be ready to go for it at the sudden right times, and so forth. You fight savagery by being savage yourself. That's how it works. And you can't be savage without being fearful. It makes no sense.

< Message edited by PeonForHer -- 5/10/2013 4:34:08 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 95
RE: LocknLoad March on Washington - 5/10/2013 4:40:49 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn

I consider carrying a weapon in public as the ultimate expression of the fear of death.


You'll note I'm not "packing".

Guns aren't the issue for me. Collective infringement on the individual's liberties are.

The downside to liberty, of course, is that when you allow people to make bad choices, some will do just that.

IWYW,
— Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Edwynn)
Profile   Post #: 96
RE: LocknLoad March on Washington - 5/10/2013 4:54:33 PM   
LafayetteLady


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Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

I find it disappointing that most seem to be saying police will fire the first shot or that it will be undercover agents.


You know the type I mean....the die hard preppers who probably shoot squirrels out of trees for sport

Regarding the first statement. Are you claiming it doesn't happen? If so, how did a boat get filled with bullet holes via a 'firefight' against a terrorist who was later found to not have a gun?

As for the second, squirrels are tasty.



To the first, no I'm not saying it doesn't happen. I'm saying that in this circumstance, I think it is highly likely that some nutter would fire one off first. This is probably not a good analogy, but if you see a klansman marching down the road with rope in his white robe, you can be damn sure he is looking to lynch somebody.

So my point is are you denying that this kind of event would attract just those sorts of crazy people?

I'm sure squirrels are tasty, but not a lot of meat on them.

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 97
RE: LocknLoad March on Washington - 5/10/2013 4:57:40 PM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

Collective infringement on the individual's liberties are.



I'm always of suspicious of that in the context of the USA and gun laws, Aswad. It seems to me, as a Brit who has never had a fear of being shot, that so many Americans might go around so utterly accepting of a level of fear that they take it for granted. Freedom from fear is a *lot* better than freedom to carry a gun, I'd bet. But I do wonder if certain Americans, in certain areas of the USA particularly, have any idea at all of what I'm talking about when I say that.


< Message edited by PeonForHer -- 5/10/2013 4:58:27 PM >

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RE: LocknLoad March on Washington - 5/10/2013 4:59:05 PM   
Edwynn


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Joined: 10/26/2008
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Well, you are right in that some significant sense of fear was required in order for me to confront it and eventually recognise what a detriment to personal security that was.

I hated dogs all through childhood because they harassed me incessantly (this was before leash laws). When I figured out that they were only 'doing their job' in feeding on my fear, I got the notion to eliminate that component. Dogs and cats have pestered me for attention ever since, and I am now smart enough to not turn them down.

I have considered potential threats on the street from humans as just another assortment of ill-bread dogs, and haven't had much trouble with either party since.

(in reply to PeonForHer)
Profile   Post #: 99
RE: LocknLoad March on Washington - 5/10/2013 4:59:46 PM   
LafayetteLady


Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

Admittedly, I have not read all 5 pages of this thread. The philosophical bullshit was getting just a bit too deep.

OUCH!


Sorry vincent, but the whole debate about the benefits of this as an act of civil disobedience and the "people" showing the government where they draw their line in the sand is nothing but philosophical bullshit.

This guy is looking to incite people and garner publicity for himself. Nothing more, nothing less. And a bunch of uneducated rednecks (yes, the educated rednecks will stay home to avoid problems) looking for a reason to shoot are going to show up.

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 100
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