RE: Loss of control

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LafayetteLady -> RE: Loss of control (5/10/2013 11:41:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl As far as the "amorphous system on line... how many times have we seen people say... no one in my off line life knows. How do you explain this type of break up? I think since the bulk of the feelings of being lost are not related so much to the kink activities, you can leave that part out and still get support from friends. After all, if they knew you were in a relationship, they have an inkling that you relied on your partner for everything. How hard is it really to go to friends for support with, "I just feel so lost without him"

tazzygirl -> RE: Loss of control (5/10/2013 12:14:02 PM)
I dont believe the bulk is not related to kink aspect. It all intermingles. For example, one of the things I missed was my chore list. How do I explain that to vanilla friends? Or the fact that I no longer had a bed time, which I both hated and loved, or how much I learned from the many TV shows and movies he would have me watch and tell him about later. My whole day was developed to work around his for 4 years. Suddenly that was gone and my time was my own. There are many things my friends may have considered "kink" and would not have wanted to know about that I felt extremely lost without. I realize most of your posts are about short term relationships, which doesnt factor into the TPE that was talked about in the OP.

tazzygirl -> RE: Loss of control (5/10/2013 12:17:42 PM)
littlewonder, thank you for sharing!

tazzygirl -> RE: Loss of control (5/10/2013 12:21:43 PM)
Nueva, your posts are always so eloquent. Thank you for posting. And, I agree. He was my center of my universe. Everything revolved around him, his schedule, his responsibilities, his goals. 4 years later and I still have trouble speaking about it all. I was very independent before him. I became dependent upon him. And I had to break free for both of our benefits. That lost feeling still emerges at times.

tazzygirl -> RE: Loss of control (5/10/2013 12:23:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady It's that "sense of purpose," and "being your own foundation," that I find to be pivotal. Of course a sub should be dedicated to their dominant, but should this one person be their sense of purpose? Should someone else ever be the foundation of making you a whole person? I think in all relationships, those things should exist, but if you have no sense of purpose tied to yourself, or believe you are nothing (no foundation) without that other person, things are not going to end well. Like LP said, you put things in a very eloquent way, and it shows that your growth and journey was all on you, not someone else. I find that some dynamics are exactly that way... the dom becomes the sense of purpose. While you may not embrace that dynamic, it doesnt make it wrong.

MsEloquence -> RE: Loss of control (5/10/2013 12:30:30 PM)
Tazzy, You may have missed most people's obliviousness. If people aren't kinky they'll hear your list more as "I miss how central he was to my life" than "I got hot and bothered when he told me what to do." Most people I know want sympathy and empathy from their friends on the emotional loss, and for this, details of the relationship's innards aren't necessary.

Rawni -> RE: Loss of control (5/10/2013 12:36:49 PM)
When you are releasing, sharing and seeking healing, isn't the best time to talk to people that won't get your dynamics, because then while needing to be free to speak, you must be very cautious and not give anything away. It doesn't matter if it is kink, sex or a dynamic, people that don't understand the d/s dynamic are going to be looking at any form of dominance or submission differently and will suggest things that couldn't be applied or will judge. I don't think that brings about the openness needed to work any personal issue out. Often we hear, we are no different when it comes to certain aspects of a relationship. To a point that is true. However what differences there are, can be interpreted as major in someones mind. As a dominant, making most calls whether I get input or not, I must be aware of how healthy my partner is. I take that on when I take on being in charge and though they don't completely defer to me and only my take, the bottom line is I feel it is my responsibility to see something unhealthy in the dynamic or within us that wouldn't take a professional to see. I need to see to the emotional health of our relationship and how they perceive me can be healthy or not. It is up to them to see things of course, but ultimately, I need to see that to be assured that I am leading us in a way that balances the outcome, good or bad. If we cannot see that our partner is risking themselves in how they devote themselves to us... maybe we ought to rethink leading. It may not be all our responsibility and I strongly believe in personal accountablity and emotional homework doing, but if I am in charge... it falls to me to see the warning signs. We can walk a fine line... whatever side of the kneel we are on. We can make mistakes, but we darn well better be on top of things or we risk doing harm, whether or not the submissive has a role in their own emotional health or not. We ask them to submit and it is up to us to watch over that submission, in my book.

NuevaVida -> RE: Loss of control (5/10/2013 12:45:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Nueva, your posts are always so eloquent. Thank you for posting. And, I agree. He was my center of my universe. Everything revolved around him, his schedule, his responsibilities, his goals. 4 years later and I still have trouble speaking about it all. I was very independent before him. I became dependent upon him. And I had to break free for both of our benefits. That lost feeling still emerges at times. Thank you, tazzy. It took a hell of a lot of work to be able to speak on that relationship with indifference. It didn't help that he added to my emotional grief and confusion by continuing to contact me for months afterwards, still trying to control me. It was a hell of a battle back then. Friends who did not know the dynamic attempted to comfort, but frankly did not understand the sense of loss, fear, and helplessness I felt. It wasn't just the loss of a relationship; it was the loss of my sense of self. I could not explain to their understanding that the man controlled everything about me, and that the carpet (my world) had just been ripped out from under my feet. And it would have been too emotionally exhausting to try, at the time. They were compassionate, but could not help me find the tools I needed to recover. I didn't need JUST sympathy back then, I needed recovery tools.

NuevaVida -> RE: Loss of control (5/10/2013 12:55:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rawni If we cannot see that our partner is risking themselves in how they devote themselves to us... maybe we ought to rethink leading. It may not be all our responsibility and I strongly believe in personal accountablity and emotional homework doing, but if I am in charge... it falls to me to see the warning signs. Amen to this. While I accepted that I knowingly handed myself over to him completely, and that I needed to be accountable for that decision, I also felt it was hugely irresponsible of him to lead me and keep me there, without some sort of "release plan" for lack of a better term. When I told him this, he became very angry. In fact, it was a warning sign that I ignored throughout the relationship - I had asked him previously what his thoughts were on if we ever parted, as far as my personal footing went. He always told me not to worry about such things. This is one of the reasons I know I won't ever be in that position again - because my own footing is now planted firmly on my own ground, and that is now the place from which I submit. Again, it took a lot of work to get to that place, because it's so easy for me to just naturally give myself over to someone I trust. This time around, I made sure I was well aware of where that "stopping point" needed to be for me, and consciously stopped myself from crossing it.

chatterbox24 -> RE: Loss of control (5/10/2013 12:57:27 PM)
I think it is always wise to keep a part of yourself. Speaking from a submissive point of view, it all sounds wonderful giving your entire self up for someone else if that's what you desire, truly magical. But from a jolting experience I learned, its in your best interest to keep some sort of independence, because if the bottom falls out, the devastation isn't so severe, and at the point you will thank your lucky stars, that you had the sense to keep that part of you. I am very fortunate, I have a soft place to fall, but my heart truly does go out for someone who has a LONG TERM relationship and has no support.

LafayetteLady -> RE: Loss of control (5/10/2013 1:18:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady It's that "sense of purpose," and "being your own foundation," that I find to be pivotal. Of course a sub should be dedicated to their dominant, but should this one person be their sense of purpose? Should someone else ever be the foundation of making you a whole person? I think in all relationships, those things should exist, but if you have no sense of purpose tied to yourself, or believe you are nothing (no foundation) without that other person, things are not going to end well. Like LP said, you put things in a very eloquent way, and it shows that your growth and journey was all on you, not someone else. I find that some dynamics are exactly that way... the dom becomes the sense of purpose. While you may not embrace that dynamic, it doesnt make it wrong. Actually, it is as wrong as someone having a fetish for making someone anorexic. Damage is damage, whether it be physical or emotional. It isn't a matter of me not embracing that type of dynamic. It is a matter of listening to the devastation that NuevaVida went through and the WHY it won't happen again. The reality is, and I've said it time and time again, everything doesn't come down to your kink is not my kink but still ok. There are things that simply ARE NOT ok. Does that translate to me saying that these women shouldn't be involved in those types of relationships. I'm not afraid to say yes it does mean that. If you are not whole, you can't give part of yourself away without damage.

LafayetteLady -> RE: Loss of control (5/10/2013 1:24:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rawni If we cannot see that our partner is risking themselves in how they devote themselves to us... maybe we ought to rethink leading. It may not be all our responsibility and I strongly believe in personal accountablity and emotional homework doing, but if I am in charge... it falls to me to see the warning signs. We can walk a fine line... whatever side of the kneel we are on. We can make mistakes, but we darn well better be on top of things or we risk doing harm, whether or not the submissive has a role in their own emotional health or not. We ask them to submit and it is up to us to watch over that submission, in my book. I completely agree with this. While ultimately NuevaVida (I sincerely hope you don't mind me using you as an example) was responsible for her own mental health and had to do the work to get that way, the partners she had that encouraged her to have no sense of self were adding to the problem and they are responsible for some of the damage.

LafayetteLady -> RE: Loss of control (5/10/2013 1:25:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NuevaVida quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Nueva, your posts are always so eloquent. Thank you for posting. And, I agree. He was my center of my universe. Everything revolved around him, his schedule, his responsibilities, his goals. 4 years later and I still have trouble speaking about it all. I was very independent before him. I became dependent upon him. And I had to break free for both of our benefits. That lost feeling still emerges at times. Thank you, tazzy. It took a hell of a lot of work to be able to speak on that relationship with indifference. It didn't help that he added to my emotional grief and confusion by continuing to contact me for months afterwards, still trying to control me. It was a hell of a battle back then. Friends who did not know the dynamic attempted to comfort, but frankly did not understand the sense of loss, fear, and helplessness I felt. It wasn't just the loss of a relationship; it was the loss of my sense of self. I could not explain to their understanding that the man controlled everything about me, and that the carpet (my world) had just been ripped out from under my feet. And it would have been too emotionally exhausting to try, at the time. They were compassionate, but could not help me find the tools I needed to recover. I didn't need JUST sympathy back then, I needed recovery tools. But from what you said, this was not much different than when you divorced. That was vanilla, but you still felt like you had the rug pulled out from under you.

tazzygirl -> RE: Loss of control (5/10/2013 1:30:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MsEloquence Tazzy, You may have missed most people's obliviousness. If people aren't kinky they'll hear your list more as "I miss how central he was to my life" than "I got hot and bothered when he told me what to do." Most people I know want sympathy and empathy from their friends on the emotional loss, and for this, details of the relationship's innards aren't necessary. Wow.. so this all boils down to how wet a slut gets between her legs.

tazzygirl -> RE: Loss of control (5/10/2013 1:35:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NuevaVida quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Nueva, your posts are always so eloquent. Thank you for posting. And, I agree. He was my center of my universe. Everything revolved around him, his schedule, his responsibilities, his goals. 4 years later and I still have trouble speaking about it all. I was very independent before him. I became dependent upon him. And I had to break free for both of our benefits. That lost feeling still emerges at times. Thank you, tazzy. It took a hell of a lot of work to be able to speak on that relationship with indifference. It didn't help that he added to my emotional grief and confusion by continuing to contact me for months afterwards, still trying to control me. It was a hell of a battle back then. Friends who did not know the dynamic attempted to comfort, but frankly did not understand the sense of loss, fear, and helplessness I felt. It wasn't just the loss of a relationship; it was the loss of my sense of self. I could not explain to their understanding that the man controlled everything about me, and that the carpet (my world) had just been ripped out from under my feet. And it would have been too emotionally exhausting to try, at the time. They were compassionate, but could not help me find the tools I needed to recover. I didn't need JUST sympathy back then, I needed recovery tools. Very much how I felt as well. Thank you

tazzygirl -> RE: Loss of control (5/10/2013 1:42:21 PM)
quote: Actually, it is as wrong as someone having a fetish for making someone anorexic. Damage is damage, whether it be physical or emotional. It isn't a matter of me not embracing that type of dynamic. It is a matter of listening to the devastation that NuevaVida went through and the WHY it won't happen again. The reality is, and I've said it time and time again, everything doesn't come down to your kink is not my kink but still ok. There are things that simply ARE NOT ok. Does that translate to me saying that these women shouldn't be involved in those types of relationships. I'm not afraid to say yes it does mean that. If you are not whole, you can't give part of yourself away without damage. What you are saying to me is that TPE and Micromanagement are wrong. Its really odd in that sometimes the depths of such are not even known until after its over. I worked outside the home, could come and go as I pleased, and I did. Worked whatever job I wanted. As long as the home and the man were attended too, my time was just that, my time to do as I pleased. I dont even think he knew how deeply I was in until the end... and it scared him as much as me. The fact remains that I was not emotionally abused, I was not physically abused. I was not "damaged". How I hate that word.

NuevaVida -> RE: Loss of control (5/10/2013 1:59:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady But from what you said, this was not much different than when you divorced. That was vanilla, but you still felt like you had the rug pulled out from under you. Slight correction: The former marriage was vanilla in name, but as I've stated, I was very much submissive to him. I also did not feel like I had the rug pulled out from under me, as I was the one who planned and instigated the divorce. I knew it was coming, and I was as emotionally and mentally prepared for it as I could be - much unlike the M/s relationship, which ended suddenly and unexpectedly. Yes, I was grief stricken and lost when the marriage split up, but the sense of loss was different in many ways to the M/s break up. I contend that for me, personally, the M/s break up affected me much differently, as he was my center and had full control over me, and then suddenly he was gone. The thread is about submissives and slaves who are so affected by those break ups. I do not contend that some people are more affected, and some are less. I do not contend that some M/s breakups may be equitable on the pain/loss scale to vanilla break ups. But some are not, and I believe that's what this thread speaks to - those M/s break ups that are harder on subs/slaves and leave them with a loss of control that they had never experienced before. I realize people want to think it's no different than vanilla, and I believe that for them it isn't. But all the attempts in the world to convince me that my own M/s break up was the same as my divorce are going to fail, as I was the one who experienced both of them, and I am acutely aware of what I went through with each. I do not mind you using me in your example to Rawni, however, my ex husband did not encourage me to not have a sense of self. He was an abusive bully and the end result of that relationship was my losing my sense of self. However, he never had the role of my center.

NuevaVida -> RE: Loss of control (5/10/2013 2:11:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: Actually, it is as wrong as someone having a fetish for making someone anorexic. Damage is damage, whether it be physical or emotional. It isn't a matter of me not embracing that type of dynamic. It is a matter of listening to the devastation that NuevaVida went through and the WHY it won't happen again. The reality is, and I've said it time and time again, everything doesn't come down to your kink is not my kink but still ok. There are things that simply ARE NOT ok. Does that translate to me saying that these women shouldn't be involved in those types of relationships. I'm not afraid to say yes it does mean that. If you are not whole, you can't give part of yourself away without damage. What you are saying to me is that TPE and Micromanagement are wrong. Its really odd in that sometimes the depths of such are not even known until after its over. I worked outside the home, could come and go as I pleased, and I did. Worked whatever job I wanted. As long as the home and the man were attended too, my time was just that, my time to do as I pleased. I dont even think he knew how deeply I was in until the end... and it scared him as much as me. The fact remains that I was not emotionally abused, I was not physically abused. I was not "damaged". How I hate that word. I think you both make good points. But here's the thing with me, since I'm being used as the example again. [:)] There were things in my past relationships that damaged/harmed me, and while those things are the focus due to the nature of this thread, there were also things in those relationships which were assets to me. In many ways, at the time the ex owner came along, I NEEDED to grasp onto something as my center, and since I didn't know who I was, it was theraputic for that person to be my owner at the time. From there I had a place to put my feet so I could start living and understanding the world better. I suspect if he had been an honest man, and the relationship had not ended abruptly, and if he had had enough ethics to transition me out, then the whole TPE of it would not have been so devastating. If, If, If, right? What I'm trying to say is we can't pin point one part of a multifaceted relationship and say therefore the entire structure of it was wrong and harmful. What I'm saying is that in my world TODAY, placing my center on someone else would not be healthy for ME. At the time, it's what I needed. When I see someone else in those shoes, I am open to the concept that perhaps it's what they need, too. I say it all the time around here - we all have our paths to take in life, and not everyone is in the same place at the same time. I worked through a LOT of stuff when I was in that M/s relationship. It's where I needed to be. Ultimately, my own personal growth had me growing out of it. Finding my own center was inevitable. The problem was that there was no real warning or transition in doing so. I am now at a place in life where giving that much of myself over is not a viable option for me. I don't recommend it for others, only because of my own experiences, but I also understand that may be exactly what someone's life might call for at that time. Tazzy is right though - the depths of the effects of such relationships are often not known until well after the fact. It's when I could expose my own emotions and analyze them, that I could take away the good that came from it, and toss out the bad. And I think for everyone that's going to be a little different.

Focus50 -> RE: Loss of control (5/10/2013 3:30:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl I took a look around in past threads and saw many threads about control from the Dominant or the relationship side of the lifestyle. This one is about the submissive/slave side,more from a TPE point of view. Allow me to preface this by saying this is not a post about anyone in particular. After being here 5 years, we have seen many couples break up, and some bad reactions by those on the kneeling side. Even subs/slaves who have broken up with an off line dominant who come here to post. And the same advice always seems to follow.... get control of yourself. That is what I wish to discuss. More so in a TPE relationship, subs and slaves (subs can be in a TPE relationship to some extent too) often have their emotions controlled for them. It can be through rewards, punishments, or a desire by the sub (from now on, sub will also include slave to save on the typing) to be pleasing to the one who owns them and others the owner may respect. So, we have a sub in a relationship with a dominant in which that dominant exerts control over the subs emotions. Im not sure there is much to dispute about that. Suddenly, that relationship is gone. For whatever reason, that control disappears. And, yes, we are all adults and should have a measure of control over ourselves. Does anyone else consider the effects of that lost control when reading posts about break ups? Should that make a difference? I would prefer to keep this thread neutral, meaning no finger pointing, no attacks. If you wish to share how you, either as a dominant or a submissive, handled your own loss, then feel free to do so in a positive light, please. I want this thread to consider the results of the break up without discussing the causes** of that break up. Typical; no internet for the last 2 days and up comes one of those rare (to me) topics of interest - ie, anything to do with D/s control, dynamics, TPE etc.... Geeeezus, I've been so friggin' bored I've been hanging out at "Politics & Religion" these past months! This, I would dispute to an extent: >> "So, we have a sub in a relationship with a dominant in which that dominant exerts control over the subs emotions. Im not sure there is much to dispute about that." << Over the sub's emotions? Every sub I've known has been an emotional soul and I've liked that aspect of their being since it's something I feel is diminished within me. I'm the "calm, cool & collected" type in stressful situations (which I s'pose is a good thing) but it means I often present as cold and detached to those who know me peripherally. And yeah, all evil, sadistic and demanding when I'm in the zone with my girl. But that "cold & detached" aspect has sometimes troubled me (with guilt - of feeling "less than human", even) in the everyday and consequently I feel that what I consider to be the heightened emotions of a typical fem/sub mindset is something positive she brings to the relationship that I proportionally lack. So yeah, I've always maintained that the girl is entitled to her emotions and my control over them is more a case of "there's a time and place for everything" rationale. And those emotions include anger (with me). So I don't control her emotions to a point of smothering them as that just makes for a bigger problem later. Better to let her run with them and get it all out in the open. "Pulling rank" is if I think she's just being petulant etc. But I digress.... I certainly hurt when a close relationship ends and since I'm the "cold & detached" one in the everyday, it's reasonable that it must be far worse for the submissive mindset, most especially if the sub is the one to have been cut loose by the other. And while it's easier said than done, yeah, the "get a grip on yourself" analogy is sound advice - it's just that it's not usually appreciated as emotions need to run their course, first. But when that "course" includes inflicting it all over others and/or the internet, it's tiresome and even embarrassing. Focus.

tazzygirl -> RE: Loss of control (5/10/2013 3:39:29 PM)
quote: This, I would dispute to an extent: >> "So, we have a sub in a relationship with a dominant in which that dominant exerts control over the subs emotions. Im not sure there is much to dispute about that." << Over the sub's emotions? Every sub I've known has been an emotional soul and I've liked that aspect of their being since it's something I feel is diminished within me. I'm the "calm, cool & collected" type in stressful situations (which I s'pose is a good thing) but it means I often present as cold and detached to those who know me peripherally. And yeah, all evil, sadistic and demanding when I'm in the zone with my girl. This was corrected in a subsequent post as well as explained throughout the thread. quote: And those emotions include anger (with me). So I don't control her emotions to a point of smothering them as that just makes for a bigger problem later. Better to let her run with them and get it all out in the open. "Pulling rank" is if I think she's just being petulant etc. I have had dynamics where emotions were not allowed if they were not pleasing. Typically they are quickly followed by punishments. So, in some sense, the dom could exert control over emotions in that aspect.

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