RE: Loss of control

RE: Loss of control (Full Version)

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egern -> RE: Loss of control (5/11/2013 1:22:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: theRose4U quote: ORIGINAL: egern The grief after loosing a relationship is a very, very real thing, just as real as loosing someone who dies. I believe every loss has its own time for grief, and you cannot really shorten it, whether you want to or not. I think the reason so many people are so quick to go 'pull yourself together' may be that they don't know what to advice since they cannot help with the grief, and so they grasp that cliche thinking it better than nothing. Often people feel helpless in the face of the grief of others, or the grief is hard for them to see, and they really try to protect themselves from it. I myself find such situations difficult to help with, all I can do is listen, because the only way I know myself is to let it run its course. I see it the way that when we allow ourselves to feel the pain of grief, what we feel is the pain leaving us,and every time there is less of it, even if it does not feel like that. It hurts like hell to let it go, but there is no other way and no other way for others than to give people space for their grief. As for having had actions and feelings controlled, I am not sure you can control the feelings of another person that much, but I do see your point, and it might be good for such subs to have someone take some care of them for a while. Like the half-way houses of released convicts. I gather that is hard to arrange, it might take a closely knit bdsm community. I would strongly disagree with the bolded part. I'm not one that believes healing comes from long drawn out he said/she did hashing of the entire relationship of people I haven't ,& probably never will, meet. Yes I have more sympathy for the TPE slave of years that comes home to "out of the blue" you don't live here any more than I do the over the top super dramatic we "broke up after a week of online only because he was training me". Its not that the grief of both aren't genuine in their own world, its that there are limits to suggestions available for people you flat don't have intimate details about...catch is I don't need or want that kind of info if the relationship is already dead. Fact is there is only so much CPR that can be done for a relationship on the autopsey table. "He promised","she did", "but I thought" only serve to wollow farther down the muddy hole of self pity. If someone is unwilling to come out of the mud when others point where the exit steps are, far be it for me to stop them...but I'm also not going to stand around forever with a warm towel of support either. I am not talking about rehashing the relationship or doing autopsy on it at all and did not say so either. I simply say that when it is over, there is grief, and this grief takes time and you cannot hurry it, but you can delay it.

LafayetteLady -> RE: Loss of control (5/11/2013 1:24:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NuevaVida quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady The problem is the insistence that because this was BDSM, the loss of control is somehow more difficult to deal with than for a vanilla couple. It isn't. I've seen many vanilla people be so utterly devastated and lost without their partner, they couldn't cope. And that is what this is about. How people cope after a split. And the reality is that people who have trouble coping from a BDSM breakup would have the same difficulty coping after a vanilla split with someone they made their whole life. Likewise, the opposite is true. Except some people, who have experienced breakups from both types of relationships, are saying the difficulty was different. And this thread is about submissives and slaves who had that difficulty; not vanilla folks. quote: I'm not the one attaching any of the "hot and bothered" activities to this. You are. Not to jump in on this one (except I just did), but MsEloquence did, in her post that said, "If people aren't kinky they'll hear your list more as "I miss how central he was to my life" than "I got hot and bothered when he told me what to do." quote: I'm really not sure why you are so insistent that it is all that different. Perhaps you have never known someone in the vanilla world who had that kind of devastation. I have and I am hearing all the same things from you and NeuvaVida that I heard from them. Again: For SOME people it is different. For SOME people it is not. Although I'm wager a guess that the devastation you're hearing about in the vanilla world is not due to the loss of someone else having complete control and authority over there. I'm not saying there wasn't devastation, but are you sure it was the same things these people were mourning? Well, the point is that I never said anything about being "hot and bothered," which was my point. Here's the thing. Unless the D/s or M/s relationship is purely about service and not a "full" relationship where the people love and care about each other, it IS still a relationship. Being involved in a BDSM relationship is not "special" no matter how much anyone wants to believe it is. I agree, people are different and each will grieve the end of a relationship differently. I've never said they didn't. But here is the bottom line: Structure is structure, pain is pain. It is absolutely ridiculous to even try to say that the end of a BDSM relationship is more painful than a vanilla one. Why? Because as you said, everyone is different. Just because the OP said "submissives" or "slaves" doesn't mean it isn't and can't be compared to vanilla relationships. Even the discussion regarding a dominant controlling the s-type's emotions. No one controls your emotions, they control your reaction. Each and every mention of "I wasn't allow to feel" talks about how if the s-type showed the emotion they were feeling. So the emotion wasn't showed, but the anger, hurt, jealousy, whatever was still felt. You do realize that essentially you are saying that one person's devastation at the loss of a relationship is "less" than another's, right? Again, loss is loss, pain is pain, devastation is devastation. Each will deal with it differently and in their own time. But there are healthy ways of dealing with it and unhealthy ways. The actual subject of the OP was whether or not we, as people reading another's post regarding a breakup, considered the feelings of the poster in relation to the poster's sense of that loss of control. For the record, NO relationship is 100% equal. Someone always is the Alpha and the other the beta. It may only be 50.5% to 49.5%, but the difference will exist. In any case, I'm not going to argue the point any further. I've no doubt that people will continue to believe that the end of a BDSM relationship is much more devastating than a vanilla because the BDSM relationship was deeper and more intense than any vanilla relationship could ever possibly be. It's a ridiculous assumption, but everyone wants to believe their situation is special and not like someone else's.

NuevaVida -> RE: Loss of control (5/11/2013 6:43:01 AM)
There is nothing to argue, and I'm still not sure why you've been insisting to. Nobody said a "BDSM" relationship is special. I did not say the pain from an M/s relationship is greater than from vanilla. I have consistently spoken from my own personal experiences, while saying it may be different for others. I have not blinked an eye at you referencing me in your posts, but I AM growing a bit irritated at you MISrepresenting me, and putting words and concepts in my mouth which I never said. That's just bullshit.

ChatteParfaitt -> RE: Loss of control (5/11/2013 7:10:13 AM)
I call Himself my emotional anchor. He is the emotionally stable rock to my emotionally volatile personality. While I constantly shift moods, he stays the same. His mere presence keeps me emotionally grounded. That doesn't mean I can't exist without him, I did so for 45 years before I met him. It does mean I don't perform to the best of my abilities and potential, because w/o him I have to serve as my own emotional anchor, and that taxes my personality. I can do it -- but its not what I'm good at. Although the control he has over me is more subtle than in others' dynamics, it's there, and it impacts my life in very positive ways. Which means if I lost it, it would impact me in negative ways. To me this is more of a relationship thing, less a BDSM thing.

njlauren -> RE: Loss of control (5/11/2013 7:18:01 AM)
I haven't waded through all the posts in this thread, but I found the ones I read interesting. A TPE is a special type of relationship in that it is supposed to mean total control on the part of the M/D, and as a result it establishes a dependency you don't see often in other types of relationships these days. Many 'traditional' marriages going back in time, where the wife was the property of the husband pretty much , who went from her family to being 'owned' by her husband comes close, where legally she had little rights outside the marriage and so forth....but that changed, in most marriages today both spouses work, wives are often smart enough to establish their own credit cards and such, and they don't quite have the dependency on the husband they once did, so if something happens, while it is emotionally devastating, as much as any relationship ending is, they are better able to stand on their own feet compared to their predecessors. A TPE can be a throwback to that kind of relationship, depending how it plays out (and I am being pretty generic here, because every one is different). If in the relationship the D/M literally runs everything, the s is expected to simply follow orders, they have no control over anything, don't handle anything, if they work the money goes to the M, and so forth, after years of living like this as with a traditional wife, and it ends, it is going to be different then two people dating and breaking up or divorce, because unlike people in 'regular' relationships, they probably have had to make decisions and such in their lives, they will have resources and such available to them, and will otherwise have been functioning as their own person, whereas in a TPE of certain types they in effect have lost a lot of that. LP mentioned jail, and in some ways she is correct, it is like a TPE in many ways, you don't have much control, and for those who have spent most of their life in jail it an be hard coming out.On the other hand, within jail the prisoners have some things they control, navigating surviving jail requires survival skills , negotiating skills and so forth (some of which are not helpful when they get out, are negatives), whatever little control they have they grasp onto. From the people i have known who have been in jail, there are some of those who succumb, who in effect become the slaves of others for protection, but many navigate it. In certain types of TPE, they don't even have that really.... I don't think the emotional is what I worry about, it is the loss of life skills and literally being set loose with nothing. Depending on the TPE, the social networks that otherwise would be there aren't there, relationships with family might be nonexistent or strained, and that is what concerns me (it is the same reason I think 'traditional marriage' was not what conservatives portray it to be, either). I personally think, from observing more than a few TPE's, that going into it one of the things that should be negotiated up front is the endgame, what happens if it goes bust, it is kind of like a pre-nup in a sense to me. If someone is going to take that kind of control over another, then to me personal ethics would require that this kind of thing be negotiated. Some M's I have known have bank accounts set up that if it goes south, the s will have some resources to get an apartment. Likewise, they will have their s's have their own credit card accounts that the M has them use from time to time (with their control) to keep their credit rating intact and up to date. From my own perspective (and this is all it is, folks, there is no criticism of anyone's relationship here) if I was an M, I also would want my s to have a social network and family ties as much as possible, so if the relationship ended, I knew there were people there for them. Going back to Lady P's jail analogy, it holds a lesson in another way, a lot of people who get out of jail are lost, have trouble, and end back up in jail because they can't cope with 'real life', and while it isn't a perfect analogy to a TPE relationship, for a lot of reasons (failure is also because those in Jail often are fucked up people, ill educated, from poor families, etc, etc), it still I think holds some of the same issues with a TPE. That doesn't mean that someone leaving a relationship should sit around and whine, or be clingy on others, or keep crying for the relationship that was and now isn't, eventually people have to stand on their own feet. Again, my models for these relationships usually were where the M and s were both pretty self reliant people, where the M wanted someone who could survive on their own, make decisions, etc, but chose to be under his control, for the M's as they explained it to me it meant a lot more to have someone who could be happy making it on their own, but was happier serving them. As one friend said, getting a Dog to be your friend and servant was no big deal, but getting a cat to do that, well, that was the feat:)

tazzygirl -> RE: Loss of control (5/11/2013 7:47:16 AM)
quote: I want to make one more general comment: we are discussing how long it takes to get over someone. I don't find it to be about this one person (for me at least), but more about grieving the lost time spent in a bad relationship and grieving the possibility that you may never meet anyone else who is good for you or makes you feel the intensity you did even in the bad relationship. That last line is something you need to explore, as I have done and continue to do in all honesty. Wow, red, the intensity is a great way to put it. The highs and the lows, the anger and the happiness. At times I often wondered is he was bi-polar, heaven help me had I suggested it.

tazzygirl -> RE: Loss of control (5/11/2013 7:53:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt I call Himself my emotional anchor. He is the emotionally stable rock to my emotionally volatile personality. While I constantly shift moods, he stays the same. His mere presence keeps me emotionally grounded. That doesn't mean I can't exist without him, I did so for 45 years before I met him. It does mean I don't perform to the best of my abilities and potential, because w/o him I have to serve as my own emotional anchor, and that taxes my personality. I can do it -- but its not what I'm good at. Although the control he has over me is more subtle than in others' dynamics, it's there, and it impacts my life in very positive ways. Which means if I lost it, it would impact me in negative ways. To me this is more of a relationship thing, less a BDSM thing. Could it be its because you dont have a TPE relationship? I cant help but think there us a major difference in how giving up total control to someone is different than someone being an emotional anchor.

tazzygirl -> RE: Loss of control (5/11/2013 8:03:46 AM)
njlauren, thank you for your post. You touched on many points I agree with. quote: Going back to Lady P's jail analogy, it holds a lesson in another way, a lot of people who get out of jail are lost, have trouble, and end back up in jail because they can't cope with 'real life', and while it isn't a perfect analogy to a TPE relationship, for a lot of reasons (failure is also because those in Jail often are fucked up people, ill educated, from poor families, etc, etc), it still I think holds some of the same issues with a TPE. This one, I think, holds more truth than many may realize. The ability to break that relationshop diminishes over time. Until, eventually, I began to question my own ability to function without him at all. That was never his intent, or mine. It just happened. I also have a fear of falling back into such a relationship. I suppose, in part, I am questioning if this was truly his hold over me, or am I truly that much of a dependent person and could it happen again. quote: That doesn't mean that someone leaving a relationship should sit around and whine, or be clingy on others, or keep crying for the relationship that was and now isn't, eventually people have to stand on their own feet. Again, my models for these relationships usually were where the M and s were both pretty self reliant people, where the M wanted someone who could survive on their own, make decisions, etc, but chose to be under his control, for the M's as they explained it to me it meant a lot more to have someone who could be happy making it on their own, but was happier serving them. As one friend said, getting a Dog to be your friend and servant was no big deal, but getting a cat to do that, well, that was the feat:) That was his intention as well. He frequently told me our relationship would not be long term. In fact, I think it lasted far longer than he intended. For me, and I can only speak to me, I dont feel it was intentional. As I posted previously, I was encouraged to have a life outside of him, and I did. I never knew how deep I was in until I was out.

tazzygirl -> RE: Loss of control (5/11/2013 8:08:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Sounds to me like you are saying I got hot and bothered when he told me to do his laundry, polish his shoes, wash the walls or scrub the floors. Nothing could be farther from the truth. It had nothing to do with being "hot and bothered" when I did chores for him. What I missed, as Nueva also stated, was the structure in my life. And that is what I took exception too. So while you may insist that isnt what you meant, that is what you said and what I responded too. That isn't what I said at all. I get it. It was the comfort of having someone that provided structure. And my point remains the same. Friends who don't know aren't going to be hearing that as being kinky, and if they were around you as a couple at all, they surely noticed your way of relating to each other. The problem is the insistence that because this was BDSM, the loss of control is somehow more difficult to deal with than for a vanilla couple. It isn't. I've seen many vanilla people be so utterly devastated and lost without their partner, they couldn't cope. And that is what this is about. How people cope after a split. And the reality is that people who have trouble coping from a BDSM breakup would have the same difficulty coping after a vanilla split with someone they made their whole life. Likewise, the opposite is true. I'm not the one attaching any of the "hot and bothered" activities to this. You are. One question. Why are you responding to a post that was not directed towards you?

tazzygirl -> RE: Loss of control (5/11/2013 8:12:55 AM)
quote: You are the one who mentioned the whole "slut getting wet." No one else did. But please if you can show me where I said anything about your daily routine getting you hot and bothered, I would love to see it. And as for how you explain it all, it really isn't that difficult. You miss the "routine" that the two of you shared. That covers your chores, it covers your bedtime. Because that is what structure provides. Routine. I'm really not sure why you are so insistent that it is all that different. Perhaps you have never known someone in the vanilla world who had that kind of devastation. I have and I am hearing all the same things from you and NeuvaVida that I heard from them. Hot and bothered.... slut getting wet... pretty much the same damn thing. And, again, why are you responding to words I never attributed to you? Those words were posted by MsEloquence . I responded to MsEloquence, and you felt a need to respond to me as if you were MsEloquence. I am not implying you are. I just find it curious that you chose to do so. My exception with your post was quite plainly stated

chatterbox24 -> RE: Loss of control (5/11/2013 8:20:47 AM)
njlauren I think that was an excellent post. I do think BDSM TPE relationships, if they end are more devastating then a vanilla relationship, unless the vanilla relationship is a traditional 50's. not because of sexual aspects but because of total dependency of the partner many times on so many levels.

tazzygirl -> RE: Loss of control (5/11/2013 8:24:21 AM)
Sex is sex. Kink or not, its just sex. I suppose some can become addicted to the sex. That wasnt the part I missed.

angelikaJ -> RE: Loss of control (5/11/2013 8:57:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Sounds to me like you are saying I got hot and bothered when he told me to do his laundry, polish his shoes, wash the walls or scrub the floors. Nothing could be farther from the truth. It had nothing to do with being "hot and bothered" when I did chores for him. What I missed, as Nueva also stated, was the structure in my life. And that is what I took exception too. So while you may insist that isnt what you meant, that is what you said and what I responded too. That isn't what I said at all. I get it. It was the comfort of having someone that provided structure. And my point remains the same. Friends who don't know aren't going to be hearing that as being kinky, and if they were around you as a couple at all, they surely noticed your way of relating to each other. The problem is the insistence that because this was BDSM, the loss of control is somehow more difficult to deal with than for a vanilla couple. It isn't. I've seen many vanilla people be so utterly devastated and lost without their partner, they couldn't cope. And that is what this is about. How people cope after a split. And the reality is that people who have trouble coping from a BDSM breakup would have the same difficulty coping after a vanilla split with someone they made their whole life. Likewise, the opposite is true. I'm not the one attaching any of the "hot and bothered" activities to this. You are. As far as I can tell, (and please correct me if I am mistaken), you are seeking a relationship with kink. You are not looking for one that is TPE centered and no offense, but I simply can not picture you as anyone's slave. When a vanilla relationship ends through break-up or death, there are many things to mourn: the loss of intimacy (physical and emotional), companionship and the various roles each partner brings to the relationship, are among them. Some couples mourn the loss of a person to argue with. There is loss when cooking for 2 suddenly becomes cooking for one. Having said that, in a power exchange relationship there can be a profound loss of structure as well. It is an element that not only defines the nature of the relationship, but the people in it. So, it is all the so called vanilla aspects (which are devastating on their own) and then the loss of the dynamic, the structure added in addition to the "ordinary". I think to try and quantify it is kind of silly: is one kind of broken heart worse than another? A broken heart is a broken heart and there shouldn't be some kind of conceptual contest involved... and let's face it, pissing contests are just messy. But the loss of a TPE can be a different kind of loss, and one that you might not appreciate if you haven't experienced it first hand. Not a worse loss; just different. edit: spelling

sexyred1 -> RE: Loss of control (5/11/2013 9:22:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: I want to make one more general comment: we are discussing how long it takes to get over someone. I don't find it to be about this one person (for me at least), but more about grieving the lost time spent in a bad relationship and grieving the possibility that you may never meet anyone else who is good for you or makes you feel the intensity you did even in the bad relationship. That last line is something you need to explore, as I have done and continue to do in all honesty. Wow, red, the intensity is a great way to put it. The highs and the lows, the anger and the happiness. At times I often wondered is he was bi-polar, heaven help me had I suggested it. A therapist once told me we can become addicted to relationships and people who make us feel intensely; the adrenaline rush you get and the drama of the highs and lows as yous say. I asked him if one could ever be satisfied with less once experienced and he said, yes, you just have to find something to replace that. I asked what would that be and he asked me to make a list of what I felt I needed vs. what I wanted and therein lies the answer. He did not say HOW to find it, but at least it made it clearer to me why people stay in bad situations and why leaving intense relationships take a long time to do so AND why some people jump back into relationships too quickly, seeking a solution to the drug withdrawal they are feeling. Me? I went cold turkey and it sucks, but I have no other choice right now. I think I used to think feeling badly in a relationship was better than feeling nothing alone, but that was wrong.

tazzygirl -> RE: Loss of control (5/11/2013 9:29:50 AM)
My dynamic here is quite different than the last. Not an opposite, just different. Its calm, more settled, almost serene. And, in that, its sometimes unsettling. Its difficult to explain, but I get the feeling you may understand. I also find I dont respond as quickly to the moods of others as I used too when I was in my last one. Its almost like a nerve that was irritated for so long, that would respond to the slightest stimuli, is now calm, and it takes more to set it off. Wow, you ladies are really getting me into a lot of introspection with this thread. Thank you!

sexyred1 -> RE: Loss of control (5/11/2013 9:33:20 AM)
I wish I knew what a calm, serene relationship was!! I do understand though. I was just thinking about how introspective I was being, which is unusual for me, so I should stop right now!! Over sharing on a message board is not my thing, but your thread made me think.

njlauren -> RE: Loss of control (5/11/2013 9:42:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl njlauren, thank you for your post. You touched on many points I agree with. quote: Going back to Lady P's jail analogy, it holds a lesson in another way, a lot of people who get out of jail are lost, have trouble, and end back up in jail because they can't cope with 'real life', and while it isn't a perfect analogy to a TPE relationship, for a lot of reasons (failure is also because those in Jail often are fucked up people, ill educated, from poor families, etc, etc), it still I think holds some of the same issues with a TPE. This one, I think, holds more truth than many may realize. The ability to break that relationshop diminishes over time. Until, eventually, I began to question my own ability to function without him at all. That was never his intent, or mine. It just happened. I also have a fear of falling back into such a relationship. I suppose, in part, I am questioning if this was truly his hold over me, or am I truly that much of a dependent person and could it happen again. quote: That doesn't mean that someone leaving a relationship should sit around and whine, or be clingy on others, or keep crying for the relationship that was and now isn't, eventually people have to stand on their own feet. Again, my models for these relationships usually were where the M and s were both pretty self reliant people, where the M wanted someone who could survive on their own, make decisions, etc, but chose to be under his control, for the M's as they explained it to me it meant a lot more to have someone who could be happy making it on their own, but was happier serving them. As one friend said, getting a Dog to be your friend and servant was no big deal, but getting a cat to do that, well, that was the feat:) That was his intention as well. He frequently told me our relationship would not be long term. In fact, I think it lasted far longer than he intended. For me, and I can only speak to me, I dont feel it was intentional. As I posted previously, I was encouraged to have a life outside of him, and I did. I never knew how deep I was in until I was out. Tazzy- I don't think it has to be intentional, where the D/M has this incredible need to totally control or make their s totally dependent, I think it can just happen over time, where it evolves into the pattern of dependency I am talking about, and my real point is that going into these relationships I think both parties have to look at the possibilities of what could happen, and be prepared for it, be aware of it, etc. For example, if an M is mindful and evaluates where the relationship is, and looks for certain signs that the s is getting in too deep (or he/she themselves), they have the ability to shape it. It is why I really think endgames need to be thought about, even if the relationship is forever, I tell that to people getting married, as crude as it sounds, about dealing with the idea they may not be together, and think about how the endgame would play out, if they had kids, etc. To me a TPE is a very, very different kind of beast, and it needs to be treated as such, it has unique things to think of and be aware of. I know of at least one, maybe 2, TPE couples where they literally have set times, x times a year, whatever, where they spend a day or two, maybe going away, to discuss where they are, what they are seeing, and to look at the future. It isn't easy, because it requires both people to be willing to be introspective and honest, and either the D/M or s might get in so deep that it no longer works, where the s is so deep they cannot see what is wrong, and likewise the M may not have the perspective, either. I knew of one couple years ago who had a very kink aware counselor, who worked with them regularly as a kind of check in, since they would feel free talking to this person (it was outside their TPE, the s had full rights to talk to the counselor), to try and make sure it worked, I thought that was an intelligent approach, and theirs was quite a deep relationship (Female M, male s), as deep as I have seen, but also incredibly loving, too:) (I lost track of them personally several years ago, but I heard about a year ago through someone I ran into they still are at it hot and heavy......)

ChatteParfaitt -> RE: Loss of control (5/11/2013 10:34:47 AM)
Frankly I've given up trying to label our relationship. He's the final decision maker, and has the power to control whatever he wished, he just doesn't often exercise that power. I think the degree a person is internally enslaved effects how conditioned the person becomes, and that will obviously effect them if there's a break up. My point was (though perhaps badly stated) that it doesn't have to be a traditional tpe relationship for the sub to find her/him self lost at sea without their dominant. Losing your guidance and direction makes a person feel lost, no matter how you label it.

MsEloquence -> RE: Loss of control (5/11/2013 10:54:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl The post I responded too.... quote: Tazzy, You may have missed most people's obliviousness. If people aren't kinky they'll hear your list more as "I miss how central he was to my life" than "I got hot and bothered when he told me what to do." Sounds to me like you are saying I got hot and bothered when he told me to do his laundry, polish his shoes, wash the walls or scrub the floors. Nothing could be farther from the truth. It had nothing to do with being "hot and bothered" when I did chores for him. What I missed, as Nueva also stated, was the structure in my life. And that is what I took exception too. So while you may insist that isnt what you meant, that is what you said and what I responded too. I am sorry that what I posted offended you. I can only repeat that my intention was to point out how unlikely it is that people will notice (or care) that someone else's relationship is unusual.

tazzygirl -> RE: Loss of control (5/11/2013 11:23:45 AM)
Im not so sure about that. For example, I worked for a girl who was a closet masochist. She loved being beat. One of her sessions got out of hand a bit, she came in with visible bruises, not the norm for them at all. Would anyone in a vanilla relationship know how to comfort her? Would a vanilla world know what to deal with? or would they simply view her as an abused woman?

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