RE: Is rape about power?

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Aswad -> RE: Is rape about power? (5/17/2013 5:50:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JeffBC It's only the 3rd point that can be changed and so is interesting at all to me. The 2nd point has been changed in experiments up here. Teaching the kids about consent and boundaries, etc., as well as the consequences of rape to the victim, etc., which has resulted in the test groups having a long term lower incidence of rape charges and convictions. Teaching the girls was also very effective, incidentally, but that part was taken out of the recommendations, despite the efficacy; guess why... IWYW, — Aswad.

fucktoyprincess -> RE: Is rape about power? (5/17/2013 6:54:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML Freund et al. (1983) stated that most rapists do not have a preference for rape over consensual sex,[33] If the above is true, as stated, then why rape (given that rape is a crime and consensual sex is not)? I don't mean to be simplistic with this question, but I am just trying to understand. If rape gives nothing more sexually than consensual sex, then obviously there is something else that it gives the rapist, or else why engage in it at all? And it seems to me that what it gives is a power trip that for a man who has rapist tendencies that consensual sex can't give. I have two herbs in front of me that give exactly the same high and after effects. But one is legal and the other is illegal. Which one do I choose? And if I consistently choose the illegal herb even though I could have the same effects legally, doesn't this suggest I have a preference for the illegal herb? So much so, that I am willing to commit what I know to be a crime? And doesn't this imply that the illegal herb has some other effect on me for which I am willing to commit a crime? Perhaps even the excitement of doing something illegal? (Which is, of course, a power trip, in and of itself).

tj444 -> RE: Is rape about power? (5/17/2013 7:30:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess If rape gives nothing more sexually than consensual sex, then obviously there is something else that it gives the rapist, or else why engage in it at all? consensual sex is a lot harder to get.. that could be a big reason why.. look at all the whiner threads started by guys that arent getting any and how hard it is for them just to get a date.. it is a bit easier on vanilla sites but that doesnt mean guys dont have to wine and dine and no guarantee they will get laid, even if they do that for a month or longer.. thats why some guys try to get a girl drunk or put something in her drink, etc..

Aswad -> RE: Is rape about power? (5/17/2013 7:38:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess I have two herbs in front of me that give exactly the same high and after effects. But one is legal and the other is illegal. Which one do I choose? Scenario 1: I have two women in front of me. One consents. The other does not. Which one do I fuck? Scenario 2: I have one woman in front of me. She doesn't consent. Which one do I fuck? Answer: The one that's most available. For the rapist, in both cases. You seem to be assuming that the rapist has other options at the time, since s/he prefers consensual sex. But that doesn't follow, as it's not established that other options were available in a time frame compatible with the rapist's capacity for delayed gratification, or even that there were prospects of ever obtaining such gratification. Prostitution may limit the scope of rape, but even that will only affect those whose impulse control and other qualities are such that they can afford to pay for sex, and only the subset that won't feel diminished for "having to pay for it", and if it's illegal, one has to cross the line to do so in the first place (which makes rape comparatively less serious from an egoistical perspective). It makes every kind of evolutionary sense for a man to experience some degree of growing urgency to have sex when he hasn't had it for a while, as his reproduction depends on having sex. The ones that don't reproduce, don't pass on the trait of holding off. People that have more sex reproduce more, as a rule, and people that reproduce more have a greater part in shaping humanity's future gene pool. Seven hundred and ninety-nine millenia later, selection has occured, and eight hundred millenia later, society has done a 180° relative to the original selection pressures; expect catching up to take some time, since most men do breed when monogamy is the norm and violent death is rare, meaning elimination of undesireable traits will be slow. You want something, people keep it from you, and eventually you take it anyway, unless you're disciplined enough not to steal. Sex may be what's desired, and power merely the means, though there may be 'validation' (of power?) involved. Note that all this applies to non-stranger rape, though I'm sure there's plenty of overlap. IWYW, — Aswad.

FelineRanger -> RE: Is rape about power? (5/17/2013 7:38:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML Freund et al. (1983) stated that most rapists do not have a preference for rape over consensual sex,[33] If the above is true, as stated, then why rape (given that rape is a crime and consensual sex is not)? I don't mean to be simplistic with this question, but I am just trying to understand. If rape gives nothing more sexually than consensual sex, then obviously there is something else that it gives the rapist, or else why engage in it at all? And it seems to me that what it gives is a power trip that for a man who has rapist tendencies that consensual sex can't give. I have two herbs in front of me that give exactly the same high and after effects. But one is legal and the other is illegal. Which one do I choose? And if I consistently choose the illegal herb even though I could have the same effects legally, doesn't this suggest I have a preference for the illegal herb? So much so, that I am willing to commit what I know to be a crime? And doesn't this imply that the illegal herb has some other effect on me for which I am willing to commit a crime? Perhaps even the excitement of doing something illegal? (Which is, of course, a power trip, in and of itself). I suspect Freund limited his research to physiological responses rather than motivations. I mentioned briefly in another thread that I did time in prison. Part of my sentence involved participation in group therapy with other inmates, many of whom committed sexual offenses including rape. Every one who committed rape said there was a major part of his life where he had no control. Not having control in that part of his life was a driving force in the commission of his crime. One other thing I found interesting is that I was the only one in my group and one of only three in the entire prison who did not have an extensive history of childhood abuse. I'm well aware that discussing what I know on this subject and how I know it may well make me a pariah, but this is something I do know well enough to speak authoritatively.

TheHeretic -> RE: Is rape about power? (5/17/2013 7:47:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess If the above is true, as stated, then why rape (given that rape is a crime and consensual sex is not)? I don't mean to be simplistic with this question, but I am just trying to understand. If rape gives nothing more sexually than consensual sex, then obviously there is something else that it gives the rapist, or else why engage in it at all? And it seems to me that what it gives is a power trip that for a man who has rapist tendencies that consensual sex can't give. I have two herbs in front of me that give exactly the same high and after effects. But one is legal and the other is illegal. Which one do I choose? And if I consistently choose the illegal herb even though I could have the same effects legally, doesn't this suggest I have a preference for the illegal herb? So much so, that I am willing to commit what I know to be a crime? And doesn't this imply that the illegal herb has some other effect on me for which I am willing to commit a crime? Perhaps even the excitement of doing something illegal? (Which is, of course, a power trip, in and of itself). Except you assume that one "herb" is just as easy to access as the other, FTP. Perhaps you aren't aware that some nights, people head out to the meat market, and just plain strike the fuck out. As Vincent Vega pointed out, sometimes you shake her hand, go home, jerk off, and that's all it is going to be. I'm willing to bet that those willing to commit rape have a better batting average. Saying that rape is about power can express a fetish for complete control without consent, but it is also uselessly broad enough to encompass a man who generally holds woman in contempt anyway, and is just taking what he wants, when he feels entitled to it as the birthright of the penis.

Aswad -> RE: Is rape about power? (5/17/2013 8:24:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FelineRanger I suspect Freund limited his research to physiological responses rather than motivations. Hopefully. In a study of any size, the introspection illusion becomes a major factor. Most people believe themselves to be capable of introspection, including considering their own motives. Most people are wrong. Only a minority actually have the ability to inspect their own motives, too few to base any statistically valid results on it. The majority will confabulate, constructing a motive after the fact, in pretty much the same way a rationalization happens. It's why such phenomena as choice blindness occur (e.g. tell someone to pick the pic with the prettiest girl in it, then swap the pic by sleight of hand and ask why they chose it; most will confabulate without realizing the swap was made, and most will reject that it could have happened when confronted with it, even claiming to have had their attention in places it patently wasn't, some even persisting when you show them video evidence). quote: Every one who committed rape said there was a major part of his life where he had no control. Did they also comment on what consensual prospects they had at the time? Lacking control in a major part of one's life can result in a lot of poor decisions, but can also result in fewer prospects, and the two can be mutually reinforcing circumstances. Of course, the notion that a penis is so powerful that it can and will utterly devastate any woman, without exception, can probably be detrimental in encouraging some to "claim" this culturally established power that the penis supposedly has. Did you have consensual prospects for the kind of sex you had? quote: Not having control in that part of his life was a driving force in the commission of his crime. See the above comments on introspection. These are the motives those people ascribed to themselves, without access to the actual decision making process, and so are little more than guesses, based on what they can believe (and seeing as the idea of power and/or control as a major factor is well entrenched in popular culture, it's easy to believe). Lack of control in one or more areas of life can certainly be a factor in just about anything, but as a sole motive, it lacks completeness. Were you horny? Did you set out for sex? Or did you set out to redress a lack of control and/or power, and happened to choose sex as the means? quote: One other thing I found interesting is that I was the only one in my group and one of only three in the entire prison who did not have an extensive history of childhood abuse. Childhood abuse can be a factor, for various reasons, but the numbers are surprising. quote: I'm well aware that discussing what I know on this subject and how I know it may well make me a pariah, but this is something I do know well enough to speak authoritatively. First off: You did your time; don't do it again and we're good. Second: Don't be arrogant enough to think that one man's personal experiences are sufficient to speak authoritatively. Third: It's always good to be able to probe people's knowledge of a subject. You were a part of the problem, and now you can be part of the solution. IWYW, — Aswad.

littlewonder -> RE: Is rape about power? (5/17/2013 9:16:57 PM)
personally I hate when people say "rape is about power". In my experience, no it's not always the case. Most times it's about horny men who have been rejected time and again and it's the only way they can get fucked. Or it's in response to an anger issue but I don't see it to be anything about power whatsoever.

stephINca -> RE: Is rape about power? (5/17/2013 9:25:29 PM)
I think it entirely depends on the type of rape. A. Stranger Rape at random. Probably all about power. B. "Blatent Date Rape" Power possibly to because he didn't get what he wanted. C. "Date Rape" A total lack of communication that leaves the woman to feel as if she said no enough but the male didn't get it and just continued. Not to get the pity card. I have had 2 of the above senarios and felt completely different about each. One you can feel the rage and hate. One you are just totally confused about what happened.

vincentML -> RE: Is rape about power? (5/17/2013 9:33:08 PM)
quote: If the above is true, as stated, then why rape (given that rape is a crime and consensual sex is not)? I don't mean to be simplistic with this question, but I am just trying to understand. If rape gives nothing more sexually than consensual sex, then obviously there is something else that it gives the rapist, or else why engage in it at all? And it seems to me that what it gives is a power trip that for a man who has rapist tendencies that consensual sex can't give. I can only guess that as Aswad suggested aggressive sexual abuse is often a crime of convenience: Over two thirds of all rapes occur in someone's home. 30.9% occur in the perpetrators' homes, 26.6% in the victims' homes and 10.1% in homes shared by the victim and perpetrator. 7.2% occur at parties, 7.2% in vehicles, 3.6% outdoors and 2.2% in bars.[5] quote: And if I consistently choose the illegal herb even though I could have the same effects legally, doesn't this suggest I have a preference for the illegal herb? So much so, that I am willing to commit what I know to be a crime? Consistently is a problematic assumption. I have not seen any research on serial rapists. The statistics given above may refer to singular events. So, I have trouble with the phrasing of your hypothetical.

njlauren -> RE: Is rape about power? (5/17/2013 9:43:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 Sadly, Martin's story is not uncommon among American women. Studies indicate that between 15 and 25 percent of all married women have been victims of spousal rape and some scholars suggest that this type of rape is the most common form in our society. "Unfortunately, for survivors like Regan Martin, modern U.S. law still retains vestiges of a misogynistic past. Creation of "Marital Rape Exemption" The so-called "marital rape exemption" has been embedded in the sexual assault laws of our country since its founding. In its most drastic form, the exemption means that a husband, by definition, cannot legally rape his wife. The theory goes that by accepting the marital contract, a woman has tacitly consented to sexual intercourse any time her husband demands it. The concept dates back to 18th century common law, and was articulated by English jurist Matthew Hale as follows: "The husband cannot be guilty of rape . . . for by their mutual matrimonial consent and contract, the wife [has] given up herself in this kind unto her husband, which she cannot retract." Currently all 50 states criminalize spousal rape, but remnants of the marital rape exemption are still present in many states' laws. Most states, like California, for example, define spousal rape as a separate offense than stranger rape. Evidently, Regan Martin's husband believed that spousal rape should not be considered a crime at all. He exhibited a commonly held assumption among perpetrators of the crime: that husbands have property rights in their wives' bodies. "He thought he had every right to do what he was doing because he was her husband," Cherry Simpson, Regan Martin's mother, told Women's eNews. However, since Illinois law has abandoned the spousal rape exemption in cases of forcible or violent rape, Samolis was initially charged with unlawful restraint, sexual criminal assault (rape) and aggravated domestic violence. But the case never made it to trial. Plea Bargaining Away Charges Plea bargains can be useful because they allow governmental prosecutors to make practical compromises in cases they believe might not prevail in court. They are also used in cases in which gathering evidence would be too costly and time consuming, saving taxpayer dollars and preserving judicial resources. But Regan and her family believe that in cases of alleged rape, plea bargains should never be allowed. "Rape is rape and to plea bargain it away is unacceptable. This is just an epidemic for judicial expediency," said Simpson. http://womensenews.org/story/rape/090701/spousal-rape-laws-continue-evolve Conservatives and the religious right argued when these laws were passed that a husband couldn't rape his wife because giving sex to the husband was her duty, that was a common teaching in Christianity for many years and the evangelicals still cling to it. Sorry, not all conservatives are that anti rape, many of them cling to the idea that rape is about lust, for example, the dumb shit from missouri running on the GOP line who claimed a woman who was 'truly' raped couldn't get pregnant, because the body wouldn't allow her to get pregnant (with the implication that if a woman got pregnant from being raped, she must have been 'into' it puke). Rape is not about lust, it is about rage and anger and disrespect. The jock turds in Steubenville, Ohio (enflamed boil on the buttocks of America), weren't out to get laid, they sexually assaulted the girl to humiliate her, and this is a common think. Some dumb ass jocks did the same thing in Glen Ridge, NJ about 25 years ago, they sexually assaulted a mental retarded young women (IQ about 60), and they used broomsticks and baseball bats on her....and their piece of shit lawyer claimed the girl had 'come on to them' (the lawyer should have been disbarred, among other things, for violating rape shield laws)(among other thing, the young woman had a mental age of about 9 or 10, so not likely)....it can be about dominance and power as well, but I personally think it is rage and hatred towards the person they raped. In the case of gay rape, often the person doing it is a self hating gay person who takes out their own anguish at being gay on others.

njlauren -> RE: Is rape about power? (5/17/2013 9:49:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx fr: What are the rape stats in places where prostitution is legal. Look at the rape stats for nevada which has legal prostution in all but about three counties. I have gone back through the records for more than 20 years and so far I have only found rape to occure in the counties that do not have legal prostitution. So my belief is that rape is all about sex,if it was all about power then why fuck them just beat the shit out of them? I thought prostitution was only legal in three counties in nevada...not in all but three.... I don't think rape rates have anything to do with whether prostitution is legal (that implies that rapists simply need to get their rocks off, they are horny, and that isn't true). It is often cited that societies that have lower rape rates tend to be more open minded about sex (for example, scandinavian countries) and that rape is often highest in sexually repressed societies, like Muslim countries, but that is a false correlation, the reason rape is lower in scandinavian countries is because in their society they have made a big attempt at equality for women and erasing misogyny, whereas traditionalist societies like the Muslim world (talking the shitholes like Saudi and Iran and Iraq) or even in certain quarters of the bible belt, women are considered inferior and that helps set the stage for rape.

njlauren -> RE: Is rape about power? (5/17/2013 9:54:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JeffBC quote: ORIGINAL: egern However, this concept, that all rape is about power, period, has never been proven or, to my knowledge, even researched. It just keep getting repeated as if it were. Feminism is like that. For me, the idea is ludicrous. Not to put too fine a point on it but last I checked "rape" was about "me fucking some woman who does not want to be fucked". It would appear at a casual glance that "fucking" has to be somewhere in the mix. For me it's pretty simple... A) Humans are a highly sexual species B) Some humans really don't see other humans as meaningful or as having any rights. C) Society is terribly permissive about this particular form of transgression. It seems to me that with those three simple ingredients you get what we see in our society. It's only the 3rd point that can be changed and so is interesting at all to me. The problem is that you are seeing it as an act of lust, because they use the equipment used for consensual sex...but in reality, what they are doing is using their sex organs as a weapon, to humiliate the victim, to take out their anger and rage on them. Point B is what makes the point, we might be a highly sexual species, but you don't have to be driven by lust to use your penis on someone, or as in the case of some assaults use objects like bottles and such to assault the victim. A classic example is that homosexual rape was often used to humiliate captives in warfare, to demean them and show them contempt.

njlauren -> RE: Is rape about power? (5/17/2013 9:55:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 Can we say that rape is just one ugly and awful tool used against women (and men) to destroy them spiritually and mentally and often physically? When the serbs were rounding up every female Muslim to systematically rape each and every one before releasing them.....it wasn`t about sex or power but for the specific purpose of ruining them as Muslims. Bingo....what was even sicker was they were encouraged by spouses and mothers to go out and do that to Muslim women, and even by the serbian orthodox priests....

sexyred1 -> RE: Is rape about power? (5/17/2013 9:59:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FelineRanger Unfortunately, rape really is about power. Very often, it's a warped attempt to regain power that the rapist feels he has lost in another part of his life. I agree and will add that it is often insecurity and anger that drives a person to rape; it is ironic that such a show of power simply masks how powerless the man is who commits such an act. Not to mention that it is also purely sociopathic behavior.

njlauren -> RE: Is rape about power? (5/17/2013 10:04:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aswad quote: ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess I have two herbs in front of me that give exactly the same high and after effects. But one is legal and the other is illegal. Which one do I choose? Scenario 1: I have two women in front of me. One consents. The other does not. Which one do I fuck? Scenario 2: I have one woman in front of me. She doesn't consent. Which one do I fuck? Answer: The one that's most available. For the rapist, in both cases. You seem to be assuming that the rapist has other options at the time, since s/he prefers consensual sex. But that doesn't follow, as it's not established that other options were available in a time frame compatible with the rapist's capacity for delayed gratification, or even that there were prospects of ever obtaining such gratification. Prostitution may limit the scope of rape, but even that will only affect those whose impulse control and other qualities are such that they can afford to pay for sex, and only the subset that won't feel diminished for "having to pay for it", and if it's illegal, one has to cross the line to do so in the first place (which makes rape comparatively less serious from an egoistical perspective). It makes every kind of evolutionary sense for a man to experience some degree of growing urgency to have sex when he hasn't had it for a while, as his reproduction depends on having sex. The ones that don't reproduce, don't pass on the trait of holding off. People that have more sex reproduce more, as a rule, and people that reproduce more have a greater part in shaping humanity's future gene pool. Seven hundred and ninety-nine millenia later, selection has occured, and eight hundred millenia later, society has done a 180° relative to the original selection pressures; expect catching up to take some time, since most men do breed when monogamy is the norm and violent death is rare, meaning elimination of undesireable traits will be slow. You want something, people keep it from you, and eventually you take it anyway, unless you're disciplined enough not to steal. Sex may be what's desired, and power merely the means, though there may be 'validation' (of power?) involved. Note that all this applies to non-stranger rape, though I'm sure there's plenty of overlap. IWYW, — Aswad. That is basically a load of bullshit, it is the same crap that has Muslim women bundled up in Burqhas, because otherwise men will get lust and rape them. Some rape scenarios do happen when things get out of hand, in date rape, especially when drinking, it can get out of hand, the girl says no and the guy keeps going, but those are not most cases of rape. Rape is not an act of being horny, it isn't about lust, it is about anger and rage at the victim, it isn't about getting off. One of the big problems with that, which is why, for example, you have the horrible practice of 'honor killings' in the Mid East where if a girl is raped, she is killed for 'dishonoring' the family, because the assumption was she asked for it. One of the reasons rape shield laws came into being in the US, that forbid defense attorneys from questioning things like a victims sexual history or the way they were dressed, was that evidence came that rape was not about sexual attraction, that it was a crime of violence, not lust, as had been assumed for far too long. The Abrahamic religions were all very big on presenting the image of women as seductress, Eve seducing Adam into sin and so forth, that men can't control themselves and it is a woman's fault, but that is complete utter bs; you can see the result in the Muslim world, where rape happens at very high levels and where the women often ends up a victim twice.

Powergamz1 -> RE: Is rape about power? (5/17/2013 10:54:32 PM)
Anytime someone gets what they would otherwise not get, by abrogating another person's unwillingness, it is 'about power'. You can stick your 'she forced me to rape her by making me horny and then holding back' line of crap where it belongs. quote: ORIGINAL: littlewonder personally I hate when people say "rape is about power". In my experience, no it's not always the case. Most times it's about horny men who have been rejected time and again and it's the only way they can get fucked. Or it's in response to an anger issue but I don't see it to be anything about power whatsoever.

tweakabelle -> RE: Is rape about power? (5/18/2013 3:38:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Powergamz1 Anytime someone gets what they would otherwise not get, by abrogating another person's unwillingness, it is 'about power'. You can stick your 'she forced me to rape her by making me horny and then holding back' line of crap where it belongs. quote: ORIGINAL: littlewonder personally I hate when people say "rape is about power". In my experience, no it's not always the case. Most times it's about horny men who have been rejected time and again and it's the only way they can get fucked. Or it's in response to an anger issue but I don't see it to be anything about power whatsoever. Yes Powergamz. Precisely. By definition, rape is something that occurs where consent for sex is, for whatever reason, absent denied or withheld. It is a person *imposing their will* on another *unwilling* person. How can that not be about power?

Moonhead -> RE: Is rape about power? (5/18/2013 3:56:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: littlewonder personally I hate when people say "rape is about power". In my experience, no it's not always the case. Most times it's about horny men who have been rejected time and again and it's the only way they can get fucked. Or it's in response to an anger issue but I don't see it to be anything about power whatsoever. You seriously don't feel that power (or compensating for its perceived lack) is a factor in either of those cases?

Politesub53 -> RE: Is rape about power? (5/18/2013 3:56:11 AM)
Rape is about bullying...... Nuff said.

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