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RE: Is rape about power? - 5/18/2013 4:04:24 AM

Lucylastic

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Anger and power....

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RE: Is rape about power? - 5/18/2013 6:53:51 AM

JeffBC

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quote:

ORIGINAL: njlauren
The problem is that you are seeing it as an act of lust, because they use the equipment used for consensual sex...but in reality, what they are doing is using their sex organs as a weapon, to humiliate the victim, to take out their anger and rage on them. Point B is what makes the point, we might be a highly sexual species, but you don't have to be driven by lust to use your penis on someone, or as in the case of some assaults use objects like bottles and such to assault the victim.

Perhaps. But I might also suggest that the problem is you are reading layers and layers of motivation into something when a perfectly clear and obvious solution exists. I'm more going with Occam's razor here.

quote:

A classic example is that homosexual rape was often used to humiliate captives in warfare, to demean them and show them contempt.

I do not understand how this is relevant at all. When one person rapes another there are two outcomes... one in the rapist the other in the victim. What makes you think the rapists gives a rat's ass what the victim felt about it in most cases? Do you really believe rapists are, in general, people with high degrees of empathy? The connection to military interrogations seems specious at best.

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RE: Is rape about power? - 5/18/2013 6:54:54 AM

egern

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

I dont know if the OP was meaning to include rape used during war or conflicts or sex slavery/human traffiking. I know that is not the scenario I was thinking about..

I meant all kinds. War included

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RE: Is rape about power? - 5/18/2013 7:57:06 AM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: njlauren

I don't think rape rates have anything to do with whether prostitution is legal (that implies that rapists simply need to get their rocks off, they are horny, and that isn't true). It is often cited that societies that have lower rape rates tend to be more open minded about sex (for example, scandinavian countries) and that rape is often highest in sexually repressed societies, like Muslim countries, but that is a false correlation, the reason rape is lower in scandinavian countries is because in their society they have made a big attempt at equality for women and erasing misogyny, whereas traditionalist societies like the Muslim world (talking the shitholes like Saudi and Iran and Iraq) or even in certain quarters of the bible belt, women are considered inferior and that helps set the stage for rape.

Actually, rape rates are very high in Scandinavia. Norway has the fifth highest rape rate of any country out there, and a substantial increase occured after the introduction of the laws banning the purchase of sexual services, a trend also seen in Sweden (where the law was pioneered). As a sidebar, violence against prostitutes substantially increased, as well, and the number of prostitutes doubled. But you're right that the occurence is higher, relative to population density, in areas where the sexual mores are more repressive, and the opposite is true of areas that are more openminded about sex.

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RE: Is rape about power? - 5/18/2013 8:10:40 AM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: njlauren

That is basically a load of bullshit, it is the same crap that has Muslim women bundled up in Burqhas, because otherwise men will get lust and rape them.

How did you get from A to C here? Cuz I'm not seeing B in there anywhere.

Some people are able to resist impulses, some are not. Excusing a failure to control impulses is insulting. Pretending the salience of the impulse is irrelevant in regard to how many successfully control their impulses is silly. Some people can't resist a sale, literally. Some people can set themselves on fire and sit there until they die. The capacity for impulse control varies, as does the salience of different impulses.

quote:

Some rape scenarios do happen when things get out of hand, in date rape, especially when drinking, it can get out of hand, the girl says no and the guy keeps going, but those are not most cases of rape.

Actually, a complete survey of all cases here shows that the norm is things getting out of hand, by more than one order of magnitude.

quote:

One of the reasons rape shield laws came into being in the US, that forbid defense attorneys from questioning things like a victims sexual history or the way they were dressed, was that evidence came that rape was not about sexual attraction, that it was a crime of violence, not lust, as had been assumed for far too long.

Who cares whether the rapist is attracted or feels lust? Kids that nab stuff at the store feel temptation, too. We still expect them to control this feeling and act properly anyway.

quote:

The Abrahamic religions were all very big on presenting the image of women as seductress, Eve seducing Adam into sin and so forth, that men can't control themselves and it is a woman's fault, but that is complete utter bs

Agreed.

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RE: Is rape about power? - 5/18/2013 8:13:55 AM

kalikshama

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quote:

Teaching the kids about consent and boundaries, etc., as well as the consequences of rape to the victim, etc., which has resulted in the test groups having a long term lower incidence of rape charges and convictions. Teaching the girls was also very effective, incidentally, but that part was taken out of the recommendations, despite the efficacy; guess why...

Please elaborate, especially on what I believe you are saying - girls were initially taught about boundaries but that part of the curriculum was removed? Is this part of the "delicate flower" approach towards women you've mentioned? (Forgive me if I've paraphrased badly.)

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RE: Is rape about power? - 5/18/2013 8:19:08 AM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

It is a person imposing their will on another unwilling person. How can that not be about power?

How can that be a useful analysis?

Any time police makes an arrest, they impose their will on an unwilling person, but I don't see law enforcement as useful to analyse in terms of power.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Rape is about bullying...... Nuff said.

You're right. Let's all not talk about it and stick our heads in the sand, accepting the provided conclusion. After all, it's not like there's a cost to being wrong. I suppose, since we've had this conclusion a while, we've found the solution already and don't need to do anything for this problem to go away. Pardon the sarcasm.

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RE: Is rape about power? - 5/18/2013 8:25:08 AM

Baroana

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Anger and power....

And selfishness, and sometimes hate. Some combination of them all..... every rape is like a snowflake, no two alike.

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RE: Is rape about power? - 5/18/2013 8:30:25 AM

thishereboi

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

FR:
Are the poor oppressed reactionaries now claiming that rape is an old fashioned right that's been removed from them by the terrible liberal conspiracy?

Are you seriously going to try to make rape a right wing thing now too?

Unfuckingbelievable....

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RE: Is rape about power? - 5/18/2013 8:35:00 AM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

Please elaborate, especially on what I believe you are saying - girls were initially taught about boundaries but that part of the curriculum was removed? Is this part of the "delicate flower" approach towards women you've mentioned? (Forgive me if I've paraphrased badly.)

Initially, the experimental curriculum included teaching the girls things like being confident in setting and keeping their own boundaries. That it's perfectly okay to say no to a boy that's spent a lot of money on you, and that you don't owe him sex (and that it's not a good idea in the first place, precisely because some may get the idea that you do owe them, even though that idea isn't right). That you don't need to be 'accomodating'. That you use whatever means necessary to make sure he knows and understands what he's doing while he's doing it, ideally also fighting back if possible. This was an independent success factor in reducing the incidence of rape (i.e. in the review, fewer of the girls in this group had been raped, compared to the control group).

Since this was felt to be placing responsibility on the girls (by acknowledging that the numbers said that they weren't entirely powerless to influence their own outcomes), it was removed from the curriculum, leading to the predicted increase in rapes. Of course, the main benefit was still from teaching the boys, in reducing the number of them that over time ended up committing rape, so the end result was seen as a big success, and the push/pull approach of complementary efforts was buried. I tend to think both reductions might've been good to keep, but hey, rape is okay so long as it happens on the altar of dogmatism, right?

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RE: Is rape about power? - 5/18/2013 8:46:49 AM

kalikshama

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That understanding would have certainly reduced the number of "rapes" in the Denver community. I believe it was a disempowering disservice to girls and women to drop it from the curriculum.

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RE: Is rape about power? - 5/18/2013 9:14:02 AM

thishereboi

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You probably made some really good points in that second paragraph, but after reading the political bs in the first one I really don't think it's worth the time to find out. Why is it so hard to discuss something without bringing the left vs right into it? Do you really think by turning a blind eye to the bs that comes from the left makes you look more intelligent? or more like an ignorant bigot?

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RE: Is rape about power? - 5/18/2013 9:21:11 AM

thishereboi

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Baroana

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Anger and power....

And selfishness, and sometimes hate. Some combination of them all..... every rape is like a snowflake, no two alike.

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RE: Is rape about power? - 5/18/2013 10:57:19 AM

fucktoyprincess

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FR

Hmmmm. I'm having trouble with this idea that rapist rape because they lack access to consensual sex.

There are plenty of men who rape who are attractive personable guys. Do people on this thread really think that the only men who rape are unattractive, with uninteresting personalities and with no prospects, whose only hope of having sex with another human being is to force them? Really?

And what about self-control as part of this equation? If people believe that men lack self-control, I'm surprised more people aren't converting to Islam because it does seem to imply that a woman, simply by virtue of being a woman, poses a sexual threat to men, a threat that they are completely unable to control. Is that really what people think of men and men's motivations. Am I really so unusual (or blessed) to have been surrounded by men (father, brothers, cousins, uncles, boyfriends, nephews, etc.) who are all motivated and disciplined men regardless of their intellect, personality and profession? Are men like that really so rare?

And I would argue that most rapists are not one time rapists. A person who is willing to rape once, is more that willing to allow themselves to go down that path again. I rarely hear of rape convictions where the rapist only raped one person. They are usually caught after a string of episodes. And even if not, often, it turns out they have raped before. Perhaps I overstate to use the word "serial", but the point is that a rapist rarely stops after just one sexual assault.

These types of news stories are far from rare:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/may/25/rapist-brian-witty-jailed-indefinitely

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RE: Is rape about power? - 5/18/2013 11:12:28 AM

fucktoyprincess

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

And if I consistently choose the illegal herb even though I could have the same effects legally, doesn't this suggest I have a preference for the illegal herb? So much so, that I am willing to commit what I know to be a crime?

Consistently is a problematic assumption. I have not seen any research on serial rapists. The statistics given above may refer to singular events. So, I have trouble with the phrasing of your hypothetical.

Here is one study that provides some information on this. Again, my use of "serial" may be overstated, but rapists are often repeat offenders:

http://www.innovations.harvard.edu/cache/documents/1348/134851.pdf

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RE: Is rape about power? - 5/18/2013 11:39:39 AM

Powergamz1

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If you don't get that a law enforcement arrest is a prime example of coercive power, then you either aren't equipped to have this discussion, or you are trolling for another pointless internet argument about semantics and strawmen.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

It is a person imposing their will on another unwilling person. How can that not be about power?

How can that be a useful analysis?

Any time police makes an arrest, they impose their will on an unwilling person, but I don't see law enforcement as useful to analyse in terms of power.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Rape is about bullying...... Nuff said.

You're right. Let's all not talk about it and stick our heads in the sand, accepting the provided conclusion. After all, it's not like there's a cost to being wrong. I suppose, since we've had this conclusion a while, we've found the solution already and don't need to do anything for this problem to go away. Pardon the sarcasm.

IWYW,
— Aswad.

< Message edited by Powergamz1 -- 5/18/2013 11:41:28 AM >

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RE: Is rape about power? - 5/18/2013 1:13:56 PM

tj444

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quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

FR

Hmmmm. I'm having trouble with this idea that rapist rape because they lack access to consensual sex.

There are plenty of men who rape who are attractive personable guys. Do people on this thread really think that the only men who rape are unattractive, with uninteresting personalities and with no prospects, whose only hope of having sex with another human being is to force them? Really?

And what about self-control as part of this equation? If people believe that men lack self-control, I'm surprised more people aren't converting to Islam because it does seem to imply that a woman, simply by virtue of being a woman, poses a sexual threat to men, a threat that they are completely unable to control. Is that really what people think of men and men's motivations. Am I really so unusual (or blessed) to have been surrounded by men (father, brothers, cousins, uncles, boyfriends, nephews, etc.) who are all motivated and disciplined men regardless of their intellect, personality and profession? Are men like that really so rare?

And I would argue that most rapists are not one time rapists. A person who is willing to rape once, is more that willing to allow themselves to go down that path again. I rarely hear of rape convictions where the rapist only raped one person. They are usually caught after a string of episodes. And even if not, often, it turns out they have raped before. Perhaps I overstate to use the word "serial", but the point is that a rapist rarely stops after just one sexual assault.

These types of news stories are far from rare:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/may/25/rapist-brian-witty-jailed-indefinitely

Men are more likely to rape if they feel they can get away with it.. I remember a survey and that was what a large number of men said/admitted.. now for some men, that might mean if she is so drunk she wont object or fight or to others, a drug in her drink and she wont remember you, to others where they know rape is so under-reported that they become arrogant & emboldened like the rapist in your link (since one victim was raped 17 years earlier).. in effect, the justice system has taught serial rapists that they can get away with it (as charges are not likely even if a victim comes forward)..

""It is clear to me you set out to prey on vulnerable women. You hid your base intentions behind a veneer of charm and lulled your victims into a false sense of security.
"Each of them was beguiled into believing that with your military background and apparent social attributes that you were a gentleman and would behave as one."

"Despite being arrested and interviewed after the rape at his home address in 1995, again after a sexual assault in 2006 and after another rape in 2008, charges were never brought by the Crown Prosecution Service."

< Message edited by tj444 -- 5/18/2013 1:14:42 PM >

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RE: Is rape about power? - 5/18/2013 1:20:32 PM

Politesub53

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

You're right. Let's all not talk about it and stick our heads in the sand, accepting the provided conclusion. After all, it's not like there's a cost to being wrong. I suppose, since we've had this conclusion a while, we've found the solution already and don't need to do anything for this problem to go away. Pardon the sarcasm.

IWYW,
— Aswad.

Got to love the head in the sand comment. Rape is wrong, it cant be justified. Talking about why it happens wont exonerate it. Simly put, it IS all about bullying the victim.

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RE: Is rape about power? - 5/18/2013 3:13:52 PM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

I believe it was a disempowering disservice to girls and women to drop it from the curriculum.

I agree, but hey, around these parts, the minister of health went on the record saying that rape is almost murder...

The vintage misogyny of ascribing such boundless power to the penis, and none to its passive receptacles(!), never ceases to amaze and disgust me.

IWYW,
— Aswad.

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RE: Is rape about power? - 5/18/2013 3:16:48 PM

thompsonx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: njlauren

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

fr:
What are the rape stats in places where prostitution is legal.
Look at the rape stats for nevada which has legal prostution in all but about three counties.
I have gone back through the records for more than 20 years and so far I have only found rape to occure in the counties
that do not have legal prostitution.
So my belief is that rape is all about sex,if it was all about power then why fuck them just beat the shit out of them?

I thought prostitution was only legal in three counties in nevada...not in all but three....

Google can validate the difference betwen opinions and facts.

quote:

I don't think rape rates have anything to do with whether prostitution is legal (that implies that rapists simply need to get their rocks off, they are horny, and that isn't true).

Do you have any thing to validate that opinion?

quote:

It is often cited that societies that have lower rape rates tend to be more open minded about sex (for example, scandinavian countries) and that rape is often highest in sexually repressed societies, like Muslim countries, but that is a false correlation, the reason rape is lower in scandinavian countries is because in their society they have made a big attempt at equality for women and erasing misogyny, whereas traditionalist societies like the Muslim world (talking the shitholes like Saudi and Iran and Iraq) or even in certain quarters of the bible belt, women are considered inferior and that helps set the stage for rape.

To sumarize, scandinavia which recognizes women as full fleged human beings, has a rape rate (low).The counties of nevada where prostitution is legal have no rape (stastically). The overwhelming majority of the male inhabitants, of the counties of nevada where prostitution is legal, are certifiable knuckle dragging cretins of the misogynist variety.
The rape rates for the two locations is redily available on the net. The mindset of the males I speak of can be discerned by a cursory reading of any of the newspapers of the areas in question.

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