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ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

There are plenty of men who rape who are attractive personable guys.

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Do people on this thread really think that the only men who rape are unattractive, with uninteresting personalities and with no prospects, whose only hope of having sex with another human being is to force them? Really?

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And what about self-control as part of this equation?

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If people believe that men lack self-control, I'm surprised more people aren't converting to Islam because it does seem to imply that a woman, simply by virtue of being a woman, poses a sexual threat to men, a threat that they are completely unable to control.

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Are men like that really so rare?

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And I would argue that most rapists are not one time rapists.

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ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

If you don't get that a law enforcement arrest is a prime example of coercive power, then you either aren't equipped to have this discussion, or you are trolling for another pointless internet argument about semantics and strawmen.

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ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Got to love the head in the sand comment. Rape is wrong, it cant be justified. Talking about why it happens wont exonerate it. Simly put, it IS all about bullying the victim.

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ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

Freund et al. (1983) stated that most rapists do not have a preference for rape over consensual sex,[33]

If the above is true, as stated, then why rape (given that rape is a crime and consensual sex is not)? I don't mean to be simplistic with this question, but I am just trying to understand. If rape gives nothing more sexually than consensual sex, then obviously there is something else that it gives the rapist, or else why engage in it at all? And it seems to me that what it gives is a power trip that for a man who has rapist tendencies that consensual sex can't give.

I have two herbs in front of me that give exactly the same high and after effects. But one is legal and the other is illegal. Which one do I choose?

And if I consistently choose the illegal herb even though I could have the same effects legally, doesn't this suggest I have a preference for the illegal herb? So much so, that I am willing to commit what I know to be a crime?

And doesn't this imply that the illegal herb has some other effect on me for which I am willing to commit a crime? Perhaps even the excitement of doing something illegal? (Which is, of course, a power trip, in and of itself).

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ORIGINAL: FelineRanger

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ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

Freund et al. (1983) stated that most rapists do not have a preference for rape over consensual sex,[33]

If the above is true, as stated, then why rape (given that rape is a crime and consensual sex is not)? I don't mean to be simplistic with this question, but I am just trying to understand. If rape gives nothing more sexually than consensual sex, then obviously there is something else that it gives the rapist, or else why engage in it at all? And it seems to me that what it gives is a power trip that for a man who has rapist tendencies that consensual sex can't give.

I have two herbs in front of me that give exactly the same high and after effects. But one is legal and the other is illegal. Which one do I choose?

And if I consistently choose the illegal herb even though I could have the same effects legally, doesn't this suggest I have a preference for the illegal herb? So much so, that I am willing to commit what I know to be a crime?

And doesn't this imply that the illegal herb has some other effect on me for which I am willing to commit a crime? Perhaps even the excitement of doing something illegal? (Which is, of course, a power trip, in and of itself).

I suspect Freund limited his research to physiological responses rather than motivations. I mentioned briefly in another thread that I did time in prison. Part of my sentence involved participation in group therapy with other inmates, many of whom committed sexual offenses including rape. Every one who committed rape said there was a major part of his life where he had no control. Not having control in that part of his life was a driving force in the commission of his crime. One other thing I found interesting is that I was the only one in my group and one of only three in the entire prison who did not have an extensive history of childhood abuse. I'm well aware that discussing what I know on this subject and how I know it may well make me a pariah, but this is something I do know well enough to speak authoritatively.

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Conservatives and the religious right argued when these laws were passed that a husband couldn't rape his wife because giving sex to the husband was her duty, that was a common teaching in Christianity for many years and the evangelicals still cling to it.

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Rape is not about lust, it is about rage and anger and disrespect. The jock turds in Steubenville, Ohio (enflamed boil on the buttocks of America), weren't out to get laid, they sexually assaulted the girl to humiliate her, and this is a common think. Some dumb ass jocks did the same thing in Glen Ridge, NJ about 25 years ago, they sexually assaulted a mental retarded young women (IQ about 60), and they used broomsticks and baseball bats on her....and their piece of shit lawyer claimed the girl had 'come on to them' (the lawyer should have been disbarred, among other things, for violating rape shield laws)(among other thing, the young woman had a mental age of about 9 or 10, so not likely)....it can be about dominance and power as well, but I personally think it is rage and hatred towards the person they raped. In the case of gay rape, often the person doing it is a self hating gay person who takes out their own anguish at being gay on others.

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ORIGINAL: njlauren

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ORIGINAL: thompsonx

fr:
What are the rape stats in places where prostitution is legal.
Look at the rape stats for nevada which has legal prostution in all but about three counties.
I have gone back through the records for more than 20 years and so far I have only found rape to occure in the counties
that do not have legal prostitution.
So my belief is that rape is all about sex,if it was all about power then why fuck them just beat the shit out of them?

I thought prostitution was only legal in three counties in nevada...not in all but three....

I don't think rape rates have anything to do with whether prostitution is legal (that implies that rapists simply need to get their rocks off, they are horny, and that isn't true). It is often cited that societies that have lower rape rates tend to be more open minded about sex (for example, scandinavian countries) and that rape is often highest in sexually repressed societies, like Muslim countries, but that is a false correlation, the reason rape is lower in scandinavian countries is because in their society they have made a big attempt at equality for women and erasing misogyny, whereas traditionalist societies like the Muslim world (talking the shitholes like Saudi and Iran and Iraq) or even in certain quarters of the bible belt, women are considered inferior and that helps set the stage for rape.

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ORIGINAL: JeffBC

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ORIGINAL: njlauren
The problem is that you are seeing it as an act of lust, because they use the equipment used for consensual sex...but in reality, what they are doing is using their sex organs as a weapon, to humiliate the victim, to take out their anger and rage on them. Point B is what makes the point, we might be a highly sexual species, but you don't have to be driven by lust to use your penis on someone, or as in the case of some assaults use objects like bottles and such to assault the victim.

Perhaps. But I might also suggest that the problem is you are reading layers and layers of motivation into something when a perfectly clear and obvious solution exists. I'm more going with Occam's razor here.

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A classic example is that homosexual rape was often used to humiliate captives in warfare, to demean them and show them contempt.

I do not understand how this is relevant at all. When one person rapes another there are two outcomes... one in the rapist the other in the victim. What makes you think the rapists gives a rat's ass what the victim felt about it in most cases? Do you really believe rapists are, in general, people with high degrees of empathy? The connection to military interrogations seems specious at best.

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ORIGINAL: littlewonder

personally I hate when people say "rape is about power". In my experience, no it's not always the case. Most times it's about horny men who have been rejected time and again and it's the only way they can get fucked. Or it's in response to an anger issue but I don't see it to be anything about power whatsoever.

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ORIGINAL: Aswad

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ORIGINAL: njlauren

That is basically a load of bullshit, it is the same crap that has Muslim women bundled up in Burqhas, because otherwise men will get lust and rape them.

How did you get from A to C here? Cuz I'm not seeing B in there anywhere.

Some people are able to resist impulses, some are not. Excusing a failure to control impulses is insulting. Pretending the salience of the impulse is irrelevant in regard to how many successfully control their impulses is silly. Some people can't resist a sale, literally. Some people can set themselves on fire and sit there until they die. The capacity for impulse control varies, as does the salience of different impulses.

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Some rape scenarios do happen when things get out of hand, in date rape, especially when drinking, it can get out of hand, the girl says no and the guy keeps going, but those are not most cases of rape.

Actually, a complete survey of all cases here shows that the norm is things getting out of hand, by more than one order of magnitude.

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One of the reasons rape shield laws came into being in the US, that forbid defense attorneys from questioning things like a victims sexual history or the way they were dressed, was that evidence came that rape was not about sexual attraction, that it was a crime of violence, not lust, as had been assumed for far too long.

Who cares whether the rapist is attracted or feels lust? Kids that nab stuff at the store feel temptation, too. We still expect them to control this feeling and act properly anyway.

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The Abrahamic religions were all very big on presenting the image of women as seductress, Eve seducing Adam into sin and so forth, that men can't control themselves and it is a woman's fault, but that is complete utter bs

Agreed.

IWYW,
— Aswad.

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ORIGINAL: thishereboi

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ORIGINAL: Moonhead

FR:
Are the poor oppressed reactionaries now claiming that rape is an old fashioned right that's been removed from them by the terrible liberal conspiracy?

Are you seriously going to try to make rape a right wing thing now too?

Unfuckingbelievable....

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ORIGINAL: njlauren

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ORIGINAL: thishereboi

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ORIGINAL: Moonhead

FR:
Are the poor oppressed reactionaries now claiming that rape is an old fashioned right that's been removed from them by the terrible liberal conspiracy?

Are you seriously going to try to make rape a right wing thing now too?

Unfuckingbelievable....

Um, I suggest you look at the stupid things the religious right branch of the GOP has been saying, and come back to me. They for example want to remove the laws allowing a husband to be charged with rape, arguing a husband cannot rape his wife, since sex is a wive's duty. These same people make the argument that rape is about lust, that if we just stopped women from wearing provocative clothing, banned sex ed, banned porn, rape wouldn't go on, just like in the 'good ole days'.....there has been a lot written about this all over the place, the attempts to get rid of the marital rape laws, and yes, to remove the rape shield laws so that a women's sexual past, dress style and so forth, are legal grounds to challenge a rape conviction. Put it this way, the people in Steubenville are not exactly NYC, and look at their reaction to the two jocks being convicted of rape, they are outraged, claiming the boys did nothing wrong, that the girl asked for it, etc...you think these were drooling liberals in that town, or conservative?

The right wing, with its law and order, should be outraged at rape and many are, but that also leaves out that the right has been hijacked by the religious right nutjobs, who see everything as lust and the fault of the sexual revolution (course, the fact that rape rates in the good ole days were probably as high as today, only a lot more wasn't reported, doesn't matter, the bible and prayer in schools and sex as something you talked about in private made sure it didn't happen, right)

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ORIGINAL: njlauren

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ORIGINAL: JeffBC

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ORIGINAL: egern
However, this concept, that all rape is about power, period, has never been proven or, to my knowledge, even researched. It just keep getting repeated as if it were.

Feminism is like that. For me, the idea is ludicrous. Not to put too fine a point on it but last I checked "rape" was about "me fucking some woman who does not want to be fucked". It would appear at a casual glance that "fucking" has to be somewhere in the mix.

For me it's pretty simple...

A) Humans are a highly sexual species
B) Some humans really don't see other humans as meaningful or as having any rights.
C) Society is terribly permissive about this particular form of transgression.

It seems to me that with those three simple ingredients you get what we see in our society. It's only the 3rd point that can be changed and so is interesting at all to me.

The problem is that you are seeing it as an act of lust, because they use the equipment used for consensual sex...but in reality, what they are doing is using their sex organs as a weapon, to humiliate the victim, to take out their anger and rage on them. Point B is what makes the point, we might be a highly sexual species, but you don't have to be driven by lust to use your penis on someone, or as in the case of some assaults use objects like bottles and such to assault the victim.

A classic example is that homosexual rape was often used to humiliate captives in warfare, to demean them and show them contempt.

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ORIGINAL: sexyred1

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ORIGINAL: FelineRanger

Unfortunately, rape really is about power. Very often, it's a warped attempt to regain power that the rapist feels he has lost in another part of his life.

I agree and will add that it is often insecurity and anger that drives a person to rape; it is ironic that such a show of power simply masks how powerless the man is who commits such an act.

Not to mention that it is also purely sociopathic behavior.

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ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

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ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

Anytime someone gets what they would otherwise not get, by abrogating another person's unwillingness, it is 'about power'.

You can stick your 'she forced me to rape her by making me horny and then holding back' line of crap where it belongs.

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ORIGINAL: littlewonder

personally I hate when people say "rape is about power". In my experience, no it's not always the case. Most times it's about horny men who have been rejected time and again and it's the only way they can get fucked. Or it's in response to an anger issue but I don't see it to be anything about power whatsoever.

Yes Powergamz. Precisely.

By definition, rape is something that occurs where consent for sex is, for whatever reason, absent denied or withheld.

It is a person imposing their will on another unwilling person.

How can that not be about power?