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RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 5/26/2013 10:55:57 PM

dcnovice

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quote:

There are many churches that are accepting of homosexuality, but they are still Christian at their core.

I would change that "but" to "because." And I'd drop "still."

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Post #: 181

RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 5/26/2013 10:56:07 PM

GotSteel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady
Certainly not all atheists are. However, there are a good many here who seem to think that they need to prove they are better, smarter, etc. than believers. Their behavior exemplifies why people have a tendency to not like atheists.

The anomosity towards atheists exists for the same reason it existed toward martin luther king jr and gandhi, it doesn't matter how polite we are and how tame our positions are we still get the hate and the death threats.

*shrug* It's how civil rights movements work, to quote a statement often attributed to gandhi:

"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win."

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Post #: 182

RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 5/26/2013 11:05:16 PM

LafayetteLady

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ORIGINAL: curious23

Lol a religion hasn't died because they keep diversifying like I said. If they didn't change, they would die, but they split all the time so that they survive. That's why there are so many denominations. The pope declared that purgatory no longer exists because too many people complained about how unfair it was unbaptized babies were sent there. So there is another split because now you've got a denomination that still believes in purgatory (dunno the name) and one that doesn't. Split or die. They always choose to split.

It's an evolutionary process. If man didn't change from being a caveman, he would have died as well. Yet, we still have people that have some barbaric ideas of life, choosing to cling to a caveman type mentality. Is that really so hard for you to accept that religion can evolve, change and adapt as well?

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Post #: 183

RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 5/26/2013 11:09:41 PM

GotSteel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady
Do you believe that love exists? Because there is nothing tangible to prove it, other than your belief it exists.F

False, there is tangible proof of love. There have been several studies at this point visually documenting the physical existence of love within the brain using function MRI.

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Post #: 184

RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 5/26/2013 11:09:59 PM

LafayetteLady

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quote:

ORIGINAL: curious23

What's not to get? No one would continue to be part of a religion that kept changing it's rules every time you turn around. So if, within a sect, there is a disagreement (example: whether Mary was simply the mother of christ or divine), the sect splits. In this case Catholicism split from Christianity. Both ideas could not exist together. Also Christianity split off from Judaism because there is a disconnect on the divinity of Christ and the state of an afterlife. The ideas could not coexist so those who felt one way went one way and the others went their own.

I think you need to educate yourself a bit better on the evolution of religion. You not only have the "splits" wrong, but the reasons.

Being that is the case, you really can't sensibly debate the diversity of religion.

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Post #: 185

RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 5/26/2013 11:13:50 PM

LafayetteLady

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quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar

quote:

ORIGINAL: curious23

I'm thinking you mean human right? Rights one has as a human whether supported by law or religion or not? I can't think of an example of such a right that isn't automatically prescribed into law (if I understand correctly...I probably dont).

Some call it human rights, yes, and I do believe that all of them are prescribed by law in most jurisdictions, yes.

Which leaves the question: do you believe that such rights exists by virtue of a human being human (independent from law), or not?

In other words, do you believe things like "a human has the right to freedom and life" even in jurisdiction that do not legally allow for those rights?

Do you believe those rights to be inherently human, or not?

I don't think she understands that these things were proscribed into law were often based on what should be inherent rights. Writing them down just dealt with making those things right.

Of course, confusing the Constitution and legal statutes could also be a problem.

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Post #: 186

RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 5/26/2013 11:17:41 PM

GotSteel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

quote:

ORIGINAL: curious23
Out of curiosity, doesn't the pope's statement undermine the whole idea of faith?

No, it doesn't undermine the idea of faith at all.

Perhaps you don't like that phrasing, would you agree that it removes the need for faith? I mean it takes both the carrot and the stick out of the equation.

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Post #: 187

RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 5/26/2013 11:20:25 PM

LafayetteLady

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

Thor doesn't seem to have too many franchises going at the moment.

Vishnu is out of work too.

Those Mayans that used to cut peoples hearts out are long gone.

The Celts, I'm told, used to eat their dead. Hard to believe, but anyway, not anymore.

Charlemagne wiped out a tree worshiping philosophy.

The Egyptians once worshiped their kings. And cats.

Isn't Vishnu a key figure in Hinduism, which has some 900 million adherents?

As for the others, did those religions die out because they changed (which was the argument being made)?

Actually, the Mayans were a people, not a religion.

Charlemagne was a person, not a religion.

Egyptians were and are a people as well.

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Post #: 188

RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 5/26/2013 11:23:31 PM

LafayetteLady

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quote:

ORIGINAL: curious23

Lol no. Like my father says, a house is only worth something if someone is willing to actually buy it. A right only exists if there are people there to give it and if they are willing to, then it is no longer a mere right, but law. Rights don't exist without law (IMO). The moment 2 people start to coexist, laws are formed, whether they are unspoken or not. Like do not murder. And if one chooses not to abide...well then one of those two people aren't existing now are they?

Laws that are "unspoken" aren't laws. They are "beliefs" and "practices." Not the same as laws.

You don't seem to realize that people would still believe that murder was wrong, even if the law didn't say so.

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RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 5/26/2013 11:26:38 PM

LafayetteLady

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ORIGINAL: curious23

I'd say that once people figured out the world wasn't flat (which was pretty early actually) Mythology couldn't really continue once people started to figure out how the world worked, now that they weren't afraid of falling off the edge. And once people figured out the real explanations as to why the sun moved or storms came, it became pretty hard to make any changes that still supported their deity's (poor zues and apollo). So it died.

Your knowledge of history is truly messed up. The "discovery" that the world was not flat wasn't even remotely "early" in the great scheme of the earth and humans inhabiting it.

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RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 5/26/2013 11:29:27 PM

GotSteel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady
The pope was obviously not talking to you, but to his congregation. And Christians don't "suffer" because of those beliefs, and your "being good" goes out the window with the insult.

I don't know about that seems like the notorious catholic guilt and sexual repression would count as suffering.

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RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 5/26/2013 11:31:05 PM

LafayetteLady

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quote:

ORIGINAL: curious23

Well nothing says a law has to be written down.

So this might be the root of your lack of understanding. A law MUST be written down, or it isn't a law.

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RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 5/26/2013 11:35:42 PM

LafayetteLady

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quote:

ORIGINAL: curious23

Well I added more to my answer when I thought about it more if you wanna see my edit above. I would have to trust that the person I am stranded with saw me as a fellow human being and chose to treat me like he'd want to be treated. However I base this initial trust on the evidence I've seen of human nature. In my experience, people want to be treated fairly and thus treat others fairly to get that so it's not a stretch for me to come to the conclusion that N'gumbo here doesn't want to eat my spline. But if I had never come across another human being in my life and knew nothing of ones nature, I would not be surprised if I killed one at first glance for any number of reasons. Competition. A threat. Whatever.

So if you were raised by wolves, you wouldn't know how to act with people. Of course, your little analogy is faulty, since if you are a person, you came from somewhere.

But most animals know not to eat their young.

Nothing you say above has anything to do with law. Human nature isn't law any more than "unspoken" agreements.

Honestly, it is difficult to debate with someone that has a lot to say, but none of it based on actual fact or knowledge, but rather on personal ideas.

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RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 5/26/2013 11:40:53 PM

LafayetteLady

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50

Maybe it's a bit of reverse psychology....

Hollywood likes to portray murderous gangsters as still being church-going Catholics on Sunday. And in real life and right now in Oz, the past practises of the Catholic Church in particular are under the judicial spot light for their protection of paedophile priests.

Seems logical (or smart?) to acknowledge that atheists can still be good and just etc when priests who presumably are true-believers can behave so atrociously - including those non-paedophile priests who protected them in order to protect the Church itself from public scrutiny and criticism.

I'm an atheist myself and a God that would currently rank me behind some paedophile priest isn't gonna turn me anytime soon.

Focus.

I completely understand what you are saying, but there is nothing to say that God condoned their behavior. While pedophilia seems to be too common with priests, the majority are still not like that, when you consider how many priests there actually are.

No question, the pedophile priests were bad, and those that protected them were just as bad (perhaps even worse) as the pedophiles. If you said you would never be part of a church that condoned such behavior, it would make sense. But the assumption/belief that God condoned it is not only unsupported, but flat out wrong.

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RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 5/26/2013 11:48:56 PM

GotSteel

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ORIGINAL: dcnovice
Given the massive diversity of human talents and abilities, it honestly strikes me as a challenge to argue empirically that we're all equal.

The equal which the founding fathers were speaking of isn't a claim that everyone has the same IQ, or productivity, or artistic talent, etc. It's rhetoric rejecting a caste system where one is assigned worth based on the assumed providence of their birth.

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RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 5/26/2013 11:52:16 PM

LafayetteLady

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

There are many churches that are accepting of homosexuality, but they are still Christian at their core.

I would change that "but" to "because." And I'd drop "still."

Point well taken. After all the pages of reading, my writing might get a little sloppy. But you are completely right. Consider the statement amended.

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RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 5/26/2013 11:58:43 PM

LafayetteLady

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady
Certainly not all atheists are. However, there are a good many here who seem to think that they need to prove they are better, smarter, etc. than believers. Their behavior exemplifies why people have a tendency to not like atheists.

The anomosity towards atheists exists for the same reason it existed toward martin luther king jr and gandhi, it doesn't matter how polite we are and how tame our positions are we still get the hate and the death threats.

*shrug* It's how civil rights movements work, to quote a statement often attributed to gandhi:

"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win."

Sorry, but I'm going to disagree with you there (and you weren't one of the atheists I was talking about).

Atheists are disliked because in order to try to prove their point, they often insist on calling people of faith (usually Christians) stupid, ignorant, etc.

I don't dislike all atheists. I also have no need to try to sway you to my beliefs. I'm not alone in feeling that way, many people think like that.

I don't know that there is a whole lot of atheists getting hate mail or death threats. But I've little doubt those that do were belligerent in trying to get their point across. I have no use for Christians (or any other people of faith) trying to get their point across the same way.

For the record, atheists will never *win.* Neither will Christians, Jews, Hindus, etc. This isn't a win/lose situation and it is by far not even close to a civil rights movement. I'm not stomping on your beliefs (or lack thereof), but I'll be damned if I will have mine stepped on.

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RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 5/27/2013 12:25:52 AM

tweakabelle

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quote:

ORIGINAL: curious23

quote:

All I see the Pope doing is moving away from the vengeful God of the first testament, and move towards the God that Christ spoke about.

I believe this is called picking and choosing. The catholic god and his testaments are inconsistent and what you see is the pope trying to overlook the ugly bits.

He may well be picking and choosing but that's hardly anything new. I don't see how any one can base their belief system in the Bible and live in today's world without picking and choosing which bits of the Bible are applicable and which fall by the wayside ....... The Bible is full of contradictions.

That said, from where I sit, the early signs of this Papacy have been favourable. The Pope's strident criticisms of capitalism, greed and consumer materialism are striking a note that I hope will be maintained for the duration. I much prefer the Church's focus being on eliminating poverty and inequality than the social conservatism and rigid theology that have dominated recent Papacies.

It may even help the Church's image recover from the battering it has received in recent years over the child rape scandals, (assuming that this Pope takes firm steps to heal the wounds and ensure that there is zero tolerance for child rape in the Church from now on).

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 5/27/2013 12:29:10 AM >

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RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 5/27/2013 12:30:05 AM

dcnovice

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice
Given the massive diversity of human talents and abilities, it honestly strikes me as a challenge to argue empirically that we're all equal.

The equal which the founding fathers were speaking of isn't a claim that everyone has the same IQ, or productivity, or artistic talent, etc. It's rhetoric rejecting a caste system where one is assigned worth based on the assumed providence of their birth.

I would describe it as an axiom and an aspiration.

Axiom: The founders made no effort to prove what they were saying. Even the scientific-minded and rationalistic Thomas Jefferson had to resort to an a priori claim of self-evidence and toss in references to a Creator as well.

Aspiration: However sincerely the framers meant these glowing words, four score and seven years of chattel slavery rolled by till the Emancipation Proclamation and then another two years before the 13th Amendment.

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RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 5/27/2013 12:46:38 AM

GotSteel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady
Atheists are disliked because in order to try to prove their point, they often insist on calling people of faith (usually Christians) stupid, ignorant, etc.

No, they were disliked first. I expect that you can easily recognize that the Black Panthers didn't start at random nor do homosexuals march around yelling "we're here, we're queer, get used to it" and throwing glitter for no good reason. The same is the case for atheists, those people you are referring to are fighting for equality, you don't find that pleasant to be around because it's not supposed to be.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady
But I've little doubt those that do were belligerent in trying to get their point across.

Then you'd be ignorant on the subject, here's the tamest possible advertising. Atheists advertising to other Atheists that we exist in order to try and form the sort of community that Christians take for granted. The result was hatred, death threats and hate crimes.