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RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 5/27/2013 12:52:34 AM

GotSteel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady
For the record, atheists will never *win.* Neither will Christians, Jews, Hindus, etc. This isn't a win/lose situation and it is by far not even close to a civil rights movement. I'm not stomping on your beliefs (or lack thereof), but I'll be damned if I will have mine stepped on.

I certainly hope you're wrong about our winning and that we do one day gain equality.

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RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 5/27/2013 1:29:59 AM

Powergamz1

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quote:

I don't know that there is a whole lot of atheists getting hate mail or death threats. But I've little doubt those that do were belligerent in trying to get their point across.

Today it's 'belligerent', in the 50s and 60s the buzzword for upsetting the status quo (and deserving lynching) was 'uppity'. A distinction that I suspect the recipient would fail to appreciate.

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RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 5/27/2013 4:03:34 AM

Focus50

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

I completely understand what you are saying, but there is nothing to say that God condoned their behavior. While pedophilia seems to be too common with priests, the majority are still not like that, when you consider how many priests there actually are.

No question, the pedophile priests were bad, and those that protected them were just as bad (perhaps even worse) as the pedophiles. If you said you would never be part of a church that condoned such behavior, it would make sense. But the assumption/belief that God condoned it is not only unsupported, but flat out wrong.

Actually, it's not a dig at God (I'm an atheist) but those who purport to do his bidding. ie, religion in general.... The ones who (yousta) like door-knocking me.

From when I was a kid, I thought then that church wasn't so much where God's worshippers went so much as the "right" place to be seen by other people at. Social status and posturing etc; that you were somehow better than the rest for attending. I hated church....

So you're wrong to say I'm wrong because I agree with you in that I don't truly believe a God would condone that behaviour, either. It's people who are no damned good - to paraphrase Gene Hackman's Lex Luthor character.

Focus.

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RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 5/27/2013 6:29:27 AM

cordeliasub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady
Certainly not all atheists are. However, there are a good many here who seem to think that they need to prove they are better, smarter, etc. than believers. Their behavior exemplifies why people have a tendency to not like atheists.

The anomosity towards atheists exists for the same reason it existed toward martin luther king jr and gandhi, it doesn't matter how polite we are and how tame our positions are we still get the hate and the death threats.

*shrug* It's how civil rights movements work, to quote a statement often attributed to gandhi:

"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win."

Sorry, but I'm going to disagree with you there (and you weren't one of the atheists I was talking about).

Atheists are disliked because in order to try to prove their point, they often insist on calling people of faith (usually Christians) stupid, ignorant, etc.

I don't dislike all atheists. I also have no need to try to sway you to my beliefs. I'm not alone in feeling that way, many people think like that.

I don't know that there is a whole lot of atheists getting hate mail or death threats. But I've little doubt those that do were belligerent in trying to get their point across. I have no use for Christians (or any other people of faith) trying to get their point across the same way.

For the record, atheists will never *win.* Neither will Christians, Jews, Hindus, etc. This isn't a win/lose situation and it is by far not even close to a civil rights movement. I'm not stomping on your beliefs (or lack thereof), but I'll be damned if I will have mine stepped on.

Consider this a "like" button

I have nothing against atheists, Jewish people, Muslims, Buddhists, agnostics, Sikhs, New Agers, or other Christians

However, I pretty much have zero respect for anyone who must consistently be obnoxious, arrogant, and rude. Because a person of intelligence can state their case without being an asshat.

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RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 5/27/2013 7:58:13 AM

vincentML

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar

quote:

ORIGINAL: curious23

I'm thinking you mean human right? Rights one has as a human whether supported by law or religion or not? I can't think of an example of such a right that isn't automatically prescribed into law (if I understand correctly...I probably dont).

Some call it human rights, yes, and I do believe that all of them are prescribed by law in most jurisdictions, yes.

Which leaves the question: do you believe that such rights exists by virtue of a human being human (independent from law), or not?

In other words, do you believe things like "a human has the right to freedom and life" even in jurisdiction that do not legally allow for those rights?

Do you believe those rights to be inherently human, or not?

I don't think she understands that these things were proscribed into law were often based on what should be inherent rights. Writing them down just dealt with making those things right.

Of course, confusing the Constitution and legal statutes could also be a problem.

Have to disagree. This conversation was held elsewhere but it is worth re-examining: there are no human rights independent of Law because without Law they are not enforceable. Furthermore, if a Law is not enforceable it is useless. Not really a Law. What is required to make a Law enforceable is an imbalance of power. Perfect equality of power leaves each individual in need of safeguarding his/her own "rights." A Hobbsean "state of nature" ensues where each will of necessity distrust the others . . . . a survivalist wet dream.

Another way to look at so-called human rights is to question whether they are superior to the right to life of other sentient creatures. I would say they are not. A human has no more valid right to life than a horse. It only seems so because the human can articulate and assert the imagined right whereas the horse can only kick and bite.

On both counts then I would posit that so-called unalienable human rights are a neat bit of Enlightenment self-deception. History supports this position with the uncountable number of humans and other sentient beings who were capriciously denied their lives by church, state, or fellow beings.

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RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 5/27/2013 8:07:01 AM

GotSteel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cordeliasub
Consider this a "like" button

I have nothing against atheists, Jewish people, Muslims, Buddhists, agnostics, Sikhs, New Agers, or other Christians

However, I pretty much have zero respect for anyone who must consistently be obnoxious, arrogant, and rude. Because a person of intelligence can state their case without being an asshat.

Do you have zero respect for these people?

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< Message edited by GotSteel -- 5/27/2013 8:10:09 AM >

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RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 5/27/2013 11:33:11 AM

cordeliasub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: cordeliasub
Consider this a "like" button

I have nothing against atheists, Jewish people, Muslims, Buddhists, agnostics, Sikhs, New Agers, or other Christians

However, I pretty much have zero respect for anyone who must consistently be obnoxious, arrogant, and rude. Because a person of intelligence can state their case without being an asshat.

Do you have zero respect for these people?

Actually no. This is a group of people who are working together to try to be heard. Yes, they may be going about it in a very vehement manner, but they are working together to stand up for something.

What I mean is when someone who has never even met me decides based on the fact that I believe in God that I must be an idiot, a hate-monger, a homophobe, an abortion doctor killer, a loser....etc.

I have zero respect for someone like that because they are completely closed minded and apparently lack the capacity to see people as individuals or have any kind of....tact.

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RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 5/27/2013 1:24:01 PM

GotSteel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cordeliasub
Actually no. This is a group of people who are working together to try to be heard. Yes, they may be going about it in a very vehement manner, but they are working together to stand up for something.

What I mean is when someone who has never even met me decides based on the fact that I believe in God that I must be an idiot, a hate-monger, a homophobe, an abortion doctor killer, a loser....etc.

I have zero respect for someone like that because they are completely closed minded and apparently lack the capacity to see people as individuals or have any kind of....tact.

Those ladies are marching down a public street screaming and shooting people they have never met with bottles labeled sperm, how do they have more tact than the atheists you're complaining about? None of our protesting, grass roots advocacy and advertising is remotely that "vehement" and yet the sperm shooters are who you accept.

I'd like you to ponder whether you actually hold the same set of standards for atheism that you do for every other civil rights movement and if not why?

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RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 5/27/2013 2:33:21 PM

cordeliasub

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OK, apparently I did not read their bottled closely enough. Yikes.

Actually, I wouldn't mind a group of atheists marching down the street shouting "There's no god!" in unison.

But when anyone insists on being personally insulting and condescending at every turn and refuses to entertain the notion that someone who has faith might actually be an intelligent and worthwhile person, that just chaps my hide.

And now that I have a fuller picture of what these women were doing....then yeah, they are being asshats too, Not speaking out against their cause or their right to proclaim it....but when they cross over from that into assaulting and insulting OTHERS...then it stops being standing up and begins being asshattery.

I think about Christian groups who are outside abortion clinics, for example. I have seen small groups who are very quiet, who might offer a pamphlet to someone as they go in, who possibly just sit and pray silently, who even offer to pray with a woman as she goes in or out. I can respect that. They are standing for what they blieve, but they are also respectful. I have also seen groups with signs bearing photos of aborted babies, screaming "murderer!!" at women as they walk in or out. In short...THOSE people are pathetic and offensive.

Again, maybe it's just my southern belle mama's voice in my head - that an intelligent person can find a way to stand up for what they believe without being an obnoxious douche.

I'm an equal opportunity douche-despiser. An obnoxious Christian bugs me just as badly as anyone else. In fact, I kind of cringe that they call themselves Christian because I'd rather not be associated with asshattery.

In short, if one has a triple digit IQ and basic social breeding, one IS capable of making a good point without being a dick.

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RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 5/27/2013 2:54:00 PM

TNDommeK

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I absolutely agree with everything you said.
As a Christian, I'm embarrassed by some of the actions that people of my faith take. I have a relationship with God, and never would He condone me being hateful or ugly to another person.

It seems now a days that everyone tries to shove their beliefs down your throats. Not that I mind, I want to know all about what makes other people tick. But I would never hate them for it. My personal belief is show people love and nine times out of ten they will return the favor.

< Message edited by TNDommeK -- 5/27/2013 2:58:10 PM >

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RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 5/27/2013 3:22:00 PM

cordeliasub

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quote:

My personal belief is show people love and nine times out of ten they will return the favor.

I agree.

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RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 5/27/2013 3:25:47 PM

dcnovice

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quote:

As a Christian, I'm embarrassed by some of the actions that people of my faith take.

"My problem with [calling myself a Christian] is that so many people who publicly identify themselves as Christians are such jerks about it."

-- Kathleen Norris, The Cloister Walk

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RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 5/27/2013 3:30:52 PM

TNDommeK

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Exactly.

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RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 5/27/2013 3:33:32 PM

freedomdwarf1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TNDommeK
My personal belief is show people love and nine times out of ten they will return the favor.

If that love had any religious overtones I would not like it and would openly shun it.
I certainly wouldn't embrace it and definitely would not return it.

The problem with an awful lot of "christians" is that they link everything into their faith and believe everyone should embrace it and if they don't they are damned to "hell" - wherever the fuck that is.

To a non-christian, anything to do with it is almost insulting in every which way possible.

< Message edited by freedomdwarf1 -- 5/27/2013 3:35:37 PM >

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RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 5/27/2013 4:51:49 PM

cordeliasub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: TNDommeK
My personal belief is show people love and nine times out of ten they will return the favor.

If that love had any religious overtones I would not like it and would openly shun it.
I certainly wouldn't embrace it and definitely would not return it.

The problem with an awful lot of "christians" is that they link everything into their faith and believe everyone should embrace it and if they don't they are damned to "hell" - wherever the fuck that is.

To a non-christian, anything to do with it is almost insulting in every which way possible.

See, when I show people love, I am referring to treating them with kindness and respect, trying to be helpful, trying to see the best in them. It could be individual, like helping out the older man who was a couple of dollars short al the grocery store or having a conversation with the rowdy kids while their exhausted looking mom was trying to pay for her purchases. Or it could be a group thing, like taking food to the food bank or helping serve the carnival workers dinner when they are here each year for the fair.

At none of those times do I spout verses, wear evangelical t-shirts, talk about God. I just reach out with kindness. And I would be willing to bet that lots of other Christians do the same....because I know quite a few who do.

And yet look at the undertone of what you just wrote - the assumption that any Christian who shows love MUST be trying to proselytize. THAT is what gets old - these assumptions about individuals without even getting to know them.

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RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 5/27/2013 5:44:15 PM

TNDommeK

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This^^^^ times a million.
I like to think I'm nice and sweet because.....well, I'm nice and sweet (and mama raised me that way).
In no way do I shove God down anyone's throats. If they ask, I will most certainly tell them about it. But I wouldn't want a person who worships Satan to come out of the blue and attempt to spread the word. Just like I'm sure they wouldn't want me doing the same.

I would be kind and courteous to you because it would be the right thing to do.

Oh, and please don't lump all Christians into the same category. There are extremists in every religion. I try to avoid those people, no matter who they follow or worship. We are all different.

< Message edited by TNDommeK -- 5/27/2013 5:45:40 PM >

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RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 5/27/2013 5:45:49 PM

DomKen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady
For the record, atheists will never *win.* Neither will Christians, Jews, Hindus, etc. This isn't a win/lose situation and it is by far not even close to a civil rights movement. I'm not stomping on your beliefs (or lack thereof), but I'll be damned if I will have mine stepped on.

I'll agree to not step on your beliefs if you and yours don't try and impose your beliefs on me. Pretty much every atheist I know feels that way. The problem is how casually most christians in this nation do impose their beliefs on the non believers.

Also it is a civil rights movement. What do you think would happen to a national media figure who said "Under no circumstances would I ever vote for a christian [for President] because they are terrible [and have] no moral code." Now consider that was actually said by a national media figure about atheists and no apology or punishment occured. Further consider that at present none of the 537 elected federal officials is openly an atheist. The only atheist to ever get elected to Congress lost in the last election.

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RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 5/27/2013 7:39:17 PM

jlf1961

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady
For the record, atheists will never *win.* Neither will Christians, Jews, Hindus, etc. This isn't a win/lose situation and it is by far not even close to a civil rights movement. I'm not stomping on your beliefs (or lack thereof), but I'll be damned if I will have mine stepped on.

I'll agree to not step on your beliefs if you and yours don't try and impose your beliefs on me. Pretty much every atheist I know feels that way. The problem is how casually most christians in this nation do impose their beliefs on the non believers.

Also it is a civil rights movement. What do you think would happen to a national media figure who said "Under no circumstances would I ever vote for a christian [for President] because they are terrible [and have] no moral code." Now consider that was actually said by a national media figure about atheists and no apology or punishment occured. Further consider that at present none of the 537 elected federal officials is openly an atheist. The only atheist to ever get elected to Congress lost in the last election.

Dom Ken, you will convert to the worship of the Goddess Carmen Electra or your tv and computer will become the receivers for the transmission of 24 hours of shows like Real Housewives, Real Life, Teen mom, American Idol, Dance with the Stars, and finally, MTV Girl Code.

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RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 5/27/2013 7:40:11 PM

TNDommeK

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Oh dear God, I'd switch jut to keep from watching that crap,lol.

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RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 5/27/2013 7:47:40 PM

jlf1961

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TNDommeK

Oh dear God, I'd switch jut to keep from watching that crap,lol.

Did I forget to mention he would be restrained in a chair until he converted to the true religion?

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