RE: Yes, even Atheists...

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DomKen -> RE: Yes, even Atheists... (5/27/2013 8:17:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady For the record, atheists will never win. Neither will Christians, Jews, Hindus, etc. This isn't a win/lose situation and it is by far not even close to a civil rights movement. I'm not stomping on your beliefs (or lack thereof), but I'll be damned if I will have mine stepped on. I'll agree to not step on your beliefs if you and yours don't try and impose your beliefs on me. Pretty much every atheist I know feels that way. The problem is how casually most christians in this nation do impose their beliefs on the non believers. Also it is a civil rights movement. What do you think would happen to a national media figure who said "Under no circumstances would I ever vote for a christian [for President] because they are terrible [and have] no moral code." Now consider that was actually said by a national media figure about atheists and no apology or punishment occured. Further consider that at present none of the 537 elected federal officials is openly an atheist. The only atheist to ever get elected to Congress lost in the last election. Dom Ken, you will convert to the worship of the Goddess Carmen Electra or your tv and computer will become the receivers for the transmission of 24 hours of shows like Real Housewives, Real Life, Teen mom, American Idol, Dance with the Stars, and finally, MTV Girl Code. Ever since Ms. Electra married Dennis Rodman I have found her much less appealing.

jlf1961 -> RE: Yes, even Atheists... (5/27/2013 8:32:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady For the record, atheists will never win. Neither will Christians, Jews, Hindus, etc. This isn't a win/lose situation and it is by far not even close to a civil rights movement. I'm not stomping on your beliefs (or lack thereof), but I'll be damned if I will have mine stepped on. I'll agree to not step on your beliefs if you and yours don't try and impose your beliefs on me. Pretty much every atheist I know feels that way. The problem is how casually most christians in this nation do impose their beliefs on the non believers. Also it is a civil rights movement. What do you think would happen to a national media figure who said "Under no circumstances would I ever vote for a christian [for President] because they are terrible [and have] no moral code." Now consider that was actually said by a national media figure about atheists and no apology or punishment occured. Further consider that at present none of the 537 elected federal officials is openly an atheist. The only atheist to ever get elected to Congress lost in the last election. Dom Ken, you will convert to the worship of the Goddess Carmen Electra or your tv and computer will become the receivers for the transmission of 24 hours of shows like Real Housewives, Real Life, Teen mom, American Idol, Dance with the Stars, and finally, MTV Girl Code. Ever since Ms. Electra married Dennis Rodman I have found her much less appealing. DomKen you will convert to the worship of Olivia Wilde or suffer the curse given to nonbelievers.

UllrsIshtar -> RE: Yes, even Atheists... (5/27/2013 8:33:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady If I remember correctly Ishtar, you don't believe in God. As such, your positive statement is one others should aspire to figuring out. Small correction: I don't believe in God the way you do, for starters because, as a panentheist I don't consider God a concept separated from myself, and I also don't believe that God is a personifiable entity with clear and direct motives and expectations in the way us humans deal with those concepts, but I do very much believe in the concept of the divine. I'm definitely not an atheist, I used to be, until I had God speak literally to me in a way that was understandable to me. But yes, I think what the Pope did was a very positive thing, and I like to credit positive things when I see them, even when they come from people with other believes than mine.

UllrsIshtar -> RE: Yes, even Atheists... (5/27/2013 8:53:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TNDommeK Oh, and please don't lump all Christians into the same category. There are extremists in every religion. I try to avoid those people, no matter who they follow or worship. We are all different. I totally agree with this, I tend to treat individuals like individuals and groups like groups. There are individuals of just about every religious or non-religious group on the planet I think are great people. And just about any group out there has sub-sectioned hate groups that I as a group dislike, that includes every religion as well an every non-religous group out there. When people honestly try to be good, I usually find a way to get along with them as individuals somehow, even when we clash on some ideas, it's not until people start thinking that their individual believes grants them a pass at attempting to dictate what others should do, think, feel, or believe that I take issue. I don't mind a single Christian praying out there for instance, including if they pray for the entirety of mankind. But don't start trying to pushy religious stuff on me, including stating that you'll pray for me, without first asking me if that's ok because I'll take issue with that. But the same goes for atheists, if/when they get pushy about their believes, or judgmental. It's not the idea of any given believe I have an issue with, it's the fact that some people seem to think that their personal believes grant them the right to preach to me and push their believes on me. Don't expect me to wait to eat until you're done praying, and I won't mind you praying. Don't jump to conclusions that I'm X because I have faith, and I won't jump to conclusions about you because you don't. It really all comes down to letting each other be, and accepting the good in people whenever you can, regardless of where it's coming from. ETA: God, fuck what's up with me tonight, I'm usually never this damn corny and sentimental. [:D]

GotSteel -> RE: Yes, even Atheists... (5/27/2013 9:06:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar I'm definitely not an atheist, I used to be, until I had God speak literally to me in a way that was understandable to me. How do you know it was God?

GotSteel -> RE: Yes, even Atheists... (5/27/2013 9:14:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cordeliasub OK, apparently I did not read their bottled closely enough. Yikes. Actually, I wouldn't mind a group of atheists marching down the street shouting "There's no god!" in unison. But when anyone insists on being personally insulting and condescending at every turn and refuses to entertain the notion that someone who has faith might actually be an intelligent and worthwhile person, that just chaps my hide. And now that I have a fuller picture of what these women were doing....then yeah, they are being asshats too, Not speaking out against their cause or their right to proclaim it....but when they cross over from that into assaulting and insulting OTHERS...then it stops being standing up and begins being asshattery. Would it change your opinion to find out that they were counter-protesting an anti gay rights protest where these young ladies were maced and beaten by the protesters who also attacked journalists covering the protest?

UllrsIshtar -> RE: Yes, even Atheists... (5/27/2013 9:18:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel quote: ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar I'm definitely not an atheist, I used to be, until I had God speak literally to me in a way that was understandable to me. How do you know it was God? Because I ran out of other explanations for the event when I tried to explain it rationally, and it felt that way. I really don't have another way to explain it other than that it seemed so against logical odds that what happened happened, together with a super intense spiritual feeling that I've never had before or since. It brought me to the point that I went from hardcore, convinced atheist to believing "something" spiritual happened. Considering that I can't consolidate the idea of a personifiable God who has motives, plans, communication with and expectations of humanity, with the evidence I see before me, me ending up as a panentheist was the only thing I could find that could continue to make sense of the world, while still making sense of the experience I had.

TNDommeK -> RE: Yes, even Atheists... (5/27/2013 10:20:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady For the record, atheists will never win. Neither will Christians, Jews, Hindus, etc. This isn't a win/lose situation and it is by far not even close to a civil rights movement. I'm not stomping on your beliefs (or lack thereof), but I'll be damned if I will have mine stepped on. I'll agree to not step on your beliefs if you and yours don't try and impose your beliefs on me. Pretty much every atheist I know feels that way. The problem is how casually most christians in this nation do impose their beliefs on the non believers. Also it is a civil rights movement. What do you think would happen to a national media figure who said "Under no circumstances would I ever vote for a christian [for President] because they are terrible [and have] no moral code." Now consider that was actually said by a national media figure about atheists and no apology or punishment occured. Further consider that at present none of the 537 elected federal officials is openly an atheist. The only atheist to ever get elected to Congress lost in the last election. Dom Ken, you will convert to the worship of the Goddess Carmen Electra or your tv and computer will become the receivers for the transmission of 24 hours of shows like Real Housewives, Real Life, Teen mom, American Idol, Dance with the Stars, and finally, MTV Girl Code. Ever since Ms. Electra married Dennis Rodman I have found her much less appealing. Um..I have to agree with this.

GotSteel -> RE: Yes, even Atheists... (5/27/2013 10:55:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar Because I ran out of other explanations for the event when I tried to explain it rationally... That constitutes the argument from ignorance, yes? quote: ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar ...and it felt that way. How would you know how God feels?

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Yes, even Atheists... (5/27/2013 11:27:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cordeliasub quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 quote: ORIGINAL: TNDommeK My personal belief is show people love and nine times out of ten they will return the favor. If that love had any religious overtones I would not like it and would openly shun it. I certainly wouldn't embrace it and definitely would not return it. The problem with an awful lot of "christians" is that they link everything into their faith and believe everyone should embrace it and if they don't they are damned to "hell" - wherever the fuck that is. To a non-christian, anything to do with it is almost insulting in every which way possible. See, when I show people love, I am referring to treating them with kindness and respect, trying to be helpful, trying to see the best in them. It could be individual, like helping out the older man who was a couple of dollars short al the grocery store or having a conversation with the rowdy kids while their exhausted looking mom was trying to pay for her purchases. Or it could be a group thing, like taking food to the food bank or helping serve the carnival workers dinner when they are here each year for the fair. At none of those times do I spout verses, wear evangelical t-shirts, talk about God. I just reach out with kindness. And I would be willing to bet that lots of other Christians do the same....because I know quite a few who do. And yet look at the undertone of what you just wrote - the assumption that any Christian who shows love MUST be trying to proselytize. THAT is what gets old - these assumptions about individuals without even getting to know them. There is no undertone. Notice I started with "If that love...". And, unfortunately, a lot of christians do have religious undertones in whatever they say or do. I frequently hear a well-meant phrase that has some religious clap-trap attached to it somewhere. I'm sure they mean well and I'm pretty sure they are so used to muttering the religious bits that they aren't even aware they are saying them any more. And I'm really glad that you don't have that very bad (and insulting) habit. No animosity was intended and no assumptins were made. I was just pointing out that an awful lot of christians do tend to do that without thinking and not realising just how insulting it can be to a non-christian. Even something as simple as the sign of the cross that catholics tend to do whilst talking is quite offensive to a Wiccan, Pagan, or similar belief because the catholics (and other christian beliefs) blatantly stole it from us. Peace to you and yours. [:)]

Focus50 -> RE: Yes, even Atheists... (5/27/2013 11:31:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel quote: ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar Because I ran out of other explanations for the event when I tried to explain it rationally... That constitutes the argument from ignorance, yes? Sherlock Holmes would disagree.... [sm=modxiiswatching.gif] Focus.

UllrsIshtar -> RE: Yes, even Atheists... (5/27/2013 11:37:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel quote: ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar Because I ran out of other explanations for the event when I tried to explain it rationally... That constitutes the argument from ignorance, yes? Yes. Is there a problem with me labeling an experience that I have no explanation for as "God", rather than labeling it "unexplained" or any other random term? quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel quote: ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar ...and it felt that way. How would you know how God feels? I don't. I know what that feeling feels like, and I've chosen to label it "God" because the experiences had no relation to anything else I've ever experienced before or since, and of all the labels I have available to me, it seems to be the only one that's a potential fit. For all I know what factually happened to cause the feeling of spirituality I had is that I had a mini-stroke, causing some braincells to randomly fire weirdly. Of course, that would still leave the physical occurrences that coincided with the feeling unexplained and quite baffling, but I'm not necessarily excluding the possibility it was indeed just a very very unlikely coincidence. However, even if it's the case that there is a scientific explanation for the event, other than it being caused by "God", then the label is still as relevant as it is now from my own perspective (which is the only relevant one in this case) because the accompanying feeling that was created through the potential stroke still would feel the same, and describing that feeling as "God" would still be the closest vocabulary equivalent at my disposal. Discovering the feeling was cause by "God", or alternatively by something like a weird chemical reaction in my brain, wouldn't change my life, or my perspective in the slightest. ETA: I don't really care if the feeling was really caused by something divine or not. Regardless of it's origin, it's causes a spark of believe in me that I cannot logically explain. Furthermore, stating that I feel like I directly communicated with God is the only way I can express what the experience was like in a way that is comprehendible to other people as to what the jest is of what I'm trying to convey. Even if you're skeptical about the facts and the causes around the event Steel -which I totally understand and don't blame you for- you still immediately understand when I say it the significance I'm trying to express as to what it means to me personally. For me, to try to explain what it was like, without using the terms like "God" or "spiritual" would be like trying to explain what having an orgasm feels like physically without using any terms like "contraction" "release" "tension" "sensation" and "pleasure". When I say that I feel like God talked to me directly, I'm using the only words I have available to me to describe what it felt like.

Kirata -> RE: Yes, even Atheists... (5/27/2013 11:55:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 I was just pointing out that an awful lot of christians do tend to do that without thinking and not realising just how insulting it can be to a non-christian. Even something as simple as the sign of the cross that catholics tend to do whilst talking is quite offensive to a Wiccan, Pagan, or similar belief because the catholics (and other christian beliefs) blatantly stole it from us. When people take offense over something they claim was 'stolen' from them nearly two millennia before they were born, you have to suspect that the problem is a bit closer to home. K.

TNDommeK -> RE: Yes, even Atheists... (5/28/2013 12:22:50 AM)
Freedomdwarf1, I'm curious, and you may have already answered this, pardon me if so...but what is it that you believe or believe in?

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Yes, even Atheists... (5/28/2013 1:35:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 I was just pointing out that an awful lot of christians do tend to do that without thinking and not realising just how insulting it can be to a non-christian. Even something as simple as the sign of the cross that catholics tend to do whilst talking is quite offensive to a Wiccan, Pagan, or similar belief because the catholics (and other christian beliefs) blatantly stole it from us. When people take offense over something they claim was 'stolen' from them nearly two millennia before they were born, you have to suspect that the problem is a bit closer to home. K. I don't think so K. Would you confront your rapist or abuser and say your anger, animosity and angst, is closer to home than the perpetrator of the crime(s)?? PFFFFTT!! Sometimes, there are some things that are just unforgivable. To blatantly steal a part of a faith system, rename it and brand it as your own is just ridiculous and purile. Sorry if you don't agree with that but it's my opinion and PoV. quote: ORIGINAL: TNDommeK Freedomdwarf1, I'm curious, and you may have already answered this, pardon me if so...but what is it that you believe or believe in? That's a good question. Some say it's Neo Paganism. I don't think so because I am leaning more towards the Druidism of the old ways and that doesn't exactly fit what modern day Neo Paganism or Wiccan is these days. So, I very loosely follow something between those two - a bit of a Pick'n'Mix. Like many Atheists, I strongly refute the traditional notion of the modern christian deity named "god" and everything that goes with it, together with just about every other modern 'religion' that has really only sprouted up in the last two millenia or so. But, I also strongly follow nature, and the natural seasonal cycle of things. Not exactly your crackpot tree-hugger but appreciate the greenery and it's cycles. Yet strangely enough, I am a strong believer of modern science and medicine rather than the homeopathic variety. I entertain the Neo Pagan idea of "Mother Earth" and her two side-kicks, The Oak King and the Holly King, because it neatly depicts the natural cycle and is a nice story for younger kids. I also follow the 8 "points" of the natural cycle; the solstices, Samhain, Beltaine, Yule et al. So for me and my family, there is the winter solstice and Yule - xmas and it's traditions don't exist. We don't have a tree or the lights and decorations or presents either. We celebrate the likes of harvest time and Samhain rather than halloween or thanksgiving. That pretty much sums it up. Nothing extreme or radical but not 'christian' per se.

Powergamz1 -> RE: Yes, even Atheists... (5/28/2013 1:48:00 AM)
Siggghhh.. I should know better, but... How exactly did Christians steal the symbol of the cross (or anything for that matter) from Wicca, which was fabricated out of whole cloth in the 20th century?

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Yes, even Atheists... (5/28/2013 1:58:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Powergamz1 Siggghhh.. I should know better, but... How exactly did Christians steal the symbol of the cross (or anything for that matter) from Wicca, which was fabricated out of whole cloth in the 20th century? Originally, the Pagans and Wiccans (and similar based faiths) used what is now 'the sign of the cross' (as in the hand movements on the chest) as a sign of the four seasons or the sign of the four essential elements - not of a cross. That was used, and is still used, by those older faith systems which date back more than eight millenia before cristianism and its offshoots were born. A lot of things in modern christian faiths have been stolen from the Pagan and Wiccan traditions though they and their followers won't admit to most of them. They like to think they invented them.

TNDommeK -> RE: Yes, even Atheists... (5/28/2013 2:03:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 I was just pointing out that an awful lot of christians do tend to do that without thinking and not realising just how insulting it can be to a non-christian. Even something as simple as the sign of the cross that catholics tend to do whilst talking is quite offensive to a Wiccan, Pagan, or similar belief because the catholics (and other christian beliefs) blatantly stole it from us. When people take offense over something they claim was 'stolen' from them nearly two millennia before they were born, you have to suspect that the problem is a bit closer to home. K. I don't think so K. Would you confront your rapist or abuser and say your anger, animosity and angst, is closer to home than the perpetrator of the crime(s)?? PFFFFTT!! Sometimes, there are some things that are just unforgivable. To blatantly steal a part of a faith system, rename it and brand it as your own is just ridiculous and purile. Sorry if you don't agree with that but it's my opinion and PoV. quote: ORIGINAL: TNDommeK Freedomdwarf1, I'm curious, and you may have already answered this, pardon me if so...but what is it that you believe or believe in? That's a good question. Some say it's Neo Paganism. I don't think so because I am leaning more towards the Druidism of the old ways and that doesn't exactly fit what modern day Neo Paganism or Wiccan is these days. So, I very loosely follow something between those two - a bit of a Pick'n'Mix. Like many Atheists, I strongly refute the traditional notion of the modern christian deity named "god" and everything that goes with it, together with just about every other modern 'religion' that has really only sprouted up in the last two millenia or so. But, I also strongly follow nature, and the natural seasonal cycle of things. Not exactly your crackpot tree-hugger but appreciate the greenery and it's cycles. Yet strangely enough, I am a strong believer of modern science and medicine rather than the homeopathic variety. I entertain the Neo Pagan idea of "Mother Earth" and her two side-kicks, The Oak King and the Holly King, because it neatly depicts the natural cycle and is a nice story for younger kids. I also follow the 8 "points" of the natural cycle; the solstices, Samhain, Beltaine, Yule et al. So for me and my family, there is the winter solstice and Yule - xmas and it's traditions don't exist. We don't have a tree or the lights and decorations or presents either. We celebrate the likes of harvest time and Samhain rather than halloween or thanksgiving. That pretty much sums it up. Nothing extreme or radical but not 'christian' per se. How very interesting. One of the girls here is pagan I believe. I'm ignorant on what it all is. But I think I said that right. She believes that there is God in everything. She loves trees and nature and the earth. No presents?? Ya lost me there. Lol. I kid. But seriously, Santa is real! He visits this house every year![:D] ETA: I thought the cross for Christians was when Jesus was crucified. I've never heard of the "stealing of the cross" thing. Now please excuse my ignorance of the subject but if it were for seasons, why would it be a cross and not something like a plus sign. Why would the horizontal part be closer to the top? Does that make sense? I think I'm asking that right.

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Yes, even Atheists... (5/28/2013 2:19:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TNDommeK How very interesting. One of the girls here is pagan I believe. I'm ignorant on what it all is. But I think I said that right. She believes that there is God in everything. She loves trees and nature and the earth. No presents?? Ya lost me there. Lol. I kid. If you are a Pagan or Wiccan or anything similar, you don't refer to the ruling or base of the belief as a "god" of any decsription. Hence why I said "Mother Earth" and her two side-kicks. And also note that they are not refered to as any sort of deity. If she truly believes there is a "god" in everything, she isn't a Pagan. quote: ORIGINAL: TNDommeK ETA: I thought the cross for Christians was when Jesus was crucified. I've never heard of the "stealing of the cross" thing. Now please excuse my ignorance of the subject but if it were for seasons, why would it be a cross and not something like a plus sign. Why would the horizontal part be closer to the top? Does that make sense? I think I'm asking that right. Yes, the christions stole the idea of the symbol of the cross and why they make that particular gesture the way they do. As far as I know, the Jesus character (and I admit that as a human being, a person, he did actually exist in real life), was actually nailed to a tree, not a cross - which the christians portray as his crucifiction. The Romans used crosses to show beggars, thieves, vagabonds etc to the passing masses to deter them from those crimes. They thought that Jesus' crime was so heinous that he didn't even desrve the luxury of a cross - hence he was nailed to a tree. And that is why the sign of the cross for christians is such a hypocrissy that it's absurd to the extreme. And for Pagans and similar, the 'cross' gesture is much more evenly spaced than some christians show it to be. Depending on which branch of the faith you follow, it could be the sign of the seasons or the sign of the four basic elements (earth, wind, fire and water). Pagans tend to use seasons, Wiccans tend to use the elements. But neither exclusively. But I believe the christians do that to accentuate the 'holy cross' that they revere as the crucifiction and deference to their faith base.

TNDommeK -> RE: Yes, even Atheists... (5/28/2013 2:30:57 AM)
Like I said, I could be wrong in describing her beliefs. I'm sure she could talk all day on this subject with you. :) I have never heard that story about the tree before. Of course, being in the Bible Belt, I'm sure the churches I grew up in made their own interpretation of the bible. Which is why I do not identify with any specific denomination. I just tell people I believe in God and I have a relationship with Him. I think every religion picks pieces and makes them sound good to their plan.

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