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ORIGINAL: dcnovice

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Martin Luther King Jr. despite his incredibly tame protesting was branded an extremest, threatened, beaten, bombed, stabbed, jailed, shot at and finally murdered.

So when one starts looking at the Black Panthers, guys brandishing weapons screaming black power, sure it looks crazy in a vacuum but in context it's pretty understandable how they got there.

That raises the fascinating, and probably unanswerable, question of whether King or the Panthers did more to advance the cause.

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There were many persuasive voices before King.

There weren't that many black men brandishing weapons before the Panthers. You can measure the effect in time.

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ORIGINAL: DomKen

Two people with knowledge of the crime not being identified by the police for their own safety you mean. Obviously the local cops know who the tips came from and find them to be credible.

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ORIGINAL: Kirata


Let's say someone on the board tells me that you confessed to them that you were a pathological liar. It would be a material misrepresentation for me then to claim, based solely on that heresay and my judgment of its credibility, that you did in actual fact explicitly admit to being a pathological liar.

See how that works? Good! Thanks for playing.

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ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

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ORIGINAL: DomKen

Two people with knowledge of the crime not being identified by the police for their own safety you mean. Obviously the local cops know who the tips came from and find them to be credible.

Did I misread the warrant? I thought source #1 and source #2 lead to the discovery of the crime and it was the sister who provided the alleged source of the motive and that she actually helped cover up the crime which she attributes to her brother.

I don't have time to re-read it.. but if I read it that wrong, I think I need to make an appointment with my eye doctor.

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ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady
Really, you are going to have to really show some inequality here. Acting like you are suffering from inequality comparable to the blacks and homosexuals is really laughable.

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ORIGINAL: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrimination_against_atheists#United_States
A 2006 study found that 40% of respondents characterized atheists as a group that did "not at all agree with my vision of American society", and that 48% would not want their child to marry an atheist. In both studies, percentages of disapproval of atheists were above those for Muslims, African-Americans and homosexuals.[60] Many of the respondents associated atheism with immorality, including criminal behaviour, extreme materialism, and elitism.[61]

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ORIGINAL: dcnovice
What do you see as the Panthers' main contributions?

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Moving the fringe thus making room in the moderate category for black equality positions.

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It's a pretty obvious book. He argues that churches form a basic component of society and that atheists miss out on that by not being religious. It's been covered before by better writers and deeper thinkers.

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ORIGINAL: thishereboi

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

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ORIGINAL: kdsub

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Religious theists in America, and especially Christians, are simply going to have to come to terms with the fact that their religion may use "peace" and "love" a lot in its theological rhetoric, but this rhetoric doesn't always translate into real behavior. Some people are simply too different to love and treat as full equals. Atheists fall into this category for a large number of religious believers and Christians in America."

Lets just take this and other religious threads on collarme... Who receives the hate and the contempt... the religious or the atheists.

When I walk down the street and pass strangers, which are always the majority, I have no idea their religious affiliation or lack of one... On top of that I don't care. The only people who have problems over their religion or lack of it are those that open their dumb asses mouths to tell everyone.

On these boards I see few people who go around preaching a religion ...do you see anyone doing that ? But I sure as hell see many who just cannot help themselves to proclaim their atheism and their contempt for those that believe in God and they attack on every thread... So bottom line you have things backwards.

Butch

Well errmmm . . . it is a Politics and RELIGION board after all, isn't it? So, now we are to stfu even on here? That is carrying oppression a step too far doncha think, Butch? Unbelievable. Imagine! People open their dumb asses mouth about their religion or lack of it on a Board dedicated to Religion. Who woulda thunk it? [8|]

If you can't discuss a subject without the hate and contempt then maybe you should.

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ORIGINAL: kdsub

Vince I took a walk...and yes I can see where you could take my words as a personal attack...So let me amend what I said... I do not think you a hypocrite and I apologize for calling you one. What I should have said and will say now is your thinking is hypocritical. There is a difference in intent I hope you see that.

I believe you to be a fair minded person and I think if you step back from our argument you will see there is some merit in what I am saying. Not as much as I believe of course but merit.

I think you are so caught up in the righteousness of your thoughts and beliefs that you can't see that you are displaying some of the same intolerance you are arguing against. I believe that true of many ...me included at times.

Butch

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ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

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ORIGINAL: TNDommeK
My personal belief is show people love and nine times out of ten they will return the favor.

If that love had any religious overtones I would not like it and would openly shun it.
I certainly wouldn't embrace it and definitely would not return it.

The problem with an awful lot of "christians" is that they link everything into their faith and believe everyone should embrace it and if they don't they are damned to "hell" - wherever the fuck that is.

To a non-christian, anything to do with it is almost insulting in every which way possible.

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ORIGINAL: DomKen

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ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady
For the record, atheists will never *win.* Neither will Christians, Jews, Hindus, etc. This isn't a win/lose situation and it is by far not even close to a civil rights movement. I'm not stomping on your beliefs (or lack thereof), but I'll be damned if I will have mine stepped on.

I'll agree to not step on your beliefs if you and yours don't try and impose your beliefs on me. Pretty much every atheist I know feels that way. The problem is how casually most christians in this nation do impose their beliefs on the non believers.

Also it is a civil rights movement. What do you think would happen to a national media figure who said "Under no circumstances would I ever vote for a christian [for President] because they are terrible [and have] no moral code." Now consider that was actually said by a national media figure about atheists and no apology or punishment occured. Further consider that at present none of the 537 elected federal officials is openly an atheist. The only atheist to ever get elected to Congress lost in the last election.

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ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar

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ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

If I remember correctly Ishtar, you don't believe in God. As such, your positive statement is one others should aspire to figuring out.

Small correction: I don't believe in God the way you do, for starters because, as a panentheist I don't consider God a concept separated from myself, and I also don't believe that God is a personifiable entity with clear and direct motives and expectations in the way us humans deal with those concepts, but I do very much believe in the concept of the divine. I'm definitely not an atheist, I used to be, until I had God speak literally to me in a way that was understandable to me.

But yes, I think what the Pope did was a very positive thing, and I like to credit positive things when I see them, even when they come from people with other believes than mine.

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ORIGINAL: GotSteel

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ORIGINAL: cordeliasub
OK, apparently I did not read their bottled closely enough. Yikes.

Actually, I wouldn't mind a group of atheists marching down the street shouting "There's no god!" in unison.

But when anyone insists on being personally insulting and condescending at every turn and refuses to entertain the notion that someone who has faith might actually be an intelligent and worthwhile person, that just chaps my hide.

And now that I have a fuller picture of what these women were doing....then yeah, they are being asshats too, Not speaking out against their cause or their right to proclaim it....but when they cross over from that into assaulting and insulting OTHERS...then it stops being standing up and begins being asshattery.

Would it change your opinion to find out that they were counter-protesting an anti gay rights protest where these young ladies were maced and beaten by the protesters who also attacked journalists covering the protest?

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ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

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ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

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ORIGINAL: TNDommeK
My personal belief is show people love and nine times out of ten they will return the favor.

If that love had any religious overtones I would not like it and would openly shun it.
I certainly wouldn't embrace it and definitely would not return it.

The problem with an awful lot of "christians" is that they link everything into their faith and believe everyone should embrace it and if they don't they are damned to "hell" - wherever the fuck that is.

To a non-christian, anything to do with it is almost insulting in every which way possible.

Honestly, so if you happen to be suffering from something (personal tragedy, sickness or grief) and someone politely says, "I will keep you in my prayers," you feel a need to shun them? They didn't "push" their faith on you. It is nothing more than their way of saying they want things to get better for you. "Shunniing" them would be rude and unnecessary.

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ORIGINAL: crazyml

Ello LafayetteLady!

I just want you to know that I (as a fully signed up, sea-going, nope god totally doesn't exist, atheist) respect you for your faith, and if I'm honest I'll admit to being slightly envious at times.

I don't believe in god, but I don't see your faith as a sign of stupidity, weakness of will, or anything like that. Now... if you were to insist that the earth was only a few thousand years old, then yeah, I'd be judging you a teensy bit...

While I think that claiming that Atheists are some kind of oppressed minority is a little bit silly, I think that there are times when Atheists do get some pretty nasty treatment, usually from fucked up mad-wag bible bashers.

I'd hazard a guess that there are at least as many mad-wag bible bashers out there as there are arrogant obnoxious atheists.

I'm saying this because, I'm hoping that you wouldn't characterise me as someone who often insists on calling people of faith (usually Christians) stupid, ignorant, etc.

Obviously, if you think I'm that kinda jackass then this has sort of blown up in my face - but assuming you don't, you can now say you've encountered a thoroughly pleasant Atheist.

;-)

I'd like to plug a book by the Philosopher Alain De Botton (hilarious name) called "Religion for Atheists" - It's a very thoughtful discussion, that is very much in line with how I feel about my Atheism.

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

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So please, "enlighten" me...what equality are you so desperate to have as an atheist?

"When atheists say that they are the most hated and most despised group in America, it doesn't mean that the hatred of atheists is the most intense and strongest of any hatred. What it means is that hatred and distrust of atheists is far more widespread, prevalent, and even socially acceptable as compared to the hatred of any other group in America.

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Atheists are certainly fortunate that they aren't so intensely hated that they have to actively fear being assaulted or killed because of their atheism, but they do have to fear discrimination on the job, in the community, and even in their own families if their atheism is made known. Some even have to contend with harassment and vandalism. Distrust and hatred of atheists is widespread enough through American society that atheist have plenty of reasons to be concerned.

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Some theists use the above myth to dismiss or minimize the widespread hatred of atheists. Given the prevalence of Christianity in America, it only follows that most of those who hate, distrust, and are willing to discriminate against atheists are "good Christians" who promote their religion as a force for peace. The fact that there are fewer people whose hatred of atheists is as intense as the small number who hate Jews and blacks enough to assault them doesn't justify the above claim, however.

Religious theists in America, and especially Christians, are simply going to have to come to terms with the fact that their religion may use "peace" and "love" a lot in its theological rhetoric, but this rhetoric doesn't always translate into real behavior. Some people are simply too different to love and treat as full equals. Atheists fall into this category for a large number of religious believers and Christians in America."
http://atheism.about.com/od/atheistbigotryprejudice/a/HateCrimes.htm

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ORIGINAL: kdsub

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Religious theists in America, and especially Christians, are simply going to have to come to terms with the fact that their religion may use "peace" and "love" a lot in its theological rhetoric, but this rhetoric doesn't always translate into real behavior. Some people are simply too different to love and treat as full equals. Atheists fall into this category for a large number of religious believers and Christians in America."

Lets just take this and other religious threads on collarme... Who receives the hate and the contempt... the religious or the atheists.

When I walk down the street and pass strangers, which are always the majority, I have no idea their religious affiliation or lack of one... On top of that I don't care. The only people who have problems over their religion or lack of it are those that open their dumb asses mouths to tell everyone.

On these boards I see few people who go around preaching a religion ...do you see anyone doing that ? But I sure as hell see many who just cannot help themselves to proclaim their atheism and their contempt for those that believe in God and they attack on every thread... So bottom line you have things backwards.

Butch