RE: Yes, even Atheists...

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DomKen -> RE: Yes, even Atheists... (5/30/2013 8:31:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady I don't think that particular reporter's comment or others like it make it a civil rights issue, but that is simply my opinion. If I recall, there were many who didn't want to vote for Kennedy because he was Catholic. Many wouldn't vote for Romney because he was a Mormon. There have also been issues with voting for an unmarried president, Regan for being divorced, Clinton because he didn't serve in the military (not to mention the infamous "I didn't inhale" incident) People were pretty vocal about all of those things. Still, none of them were civil rights issues. Kennedy and Romney were civil rights issues. That a signifcant percentage of Americans would not vote for someone due to their faith denies that faith group their right to fully participate in the political process. Just try thinking about whether it is a civil rights issue that some people wouldn't vote for Obama because he is black. No, it isn't a civil rights issue, and neither was people not voting for Obama because he was black. They weren't prohibited from participating, they weren't prohibited from running, and THAT would have been a civil rights issue. Since two of the three won, obviously whatever those people thought didn't matter. As for the third, he lost not because of his religion but because of his and his party's own stupidity. Who you choose to vote for is your personal choice. Some may not have voted for Romney because of his failure to want to recognize those who weren't wealthy. But regardless of their reasoning, those people chose who they wanted to vote for which is THEIR right in the process. Again, just so you are clear on this, had Kennedy and Romney been prohibited from running because of their religion, or Obama because of his ethnicity, that WOULD have been a civil rights issue. Since they weren't, it wasn't. You seem to have an odd definition of civil rights. Do you think it is only about legal barriers to equality?

LafayetteLady -> RE: Yes, even Atheists... (5/30/2013 8:32:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Powergamz1 I think Got Steel may be onto something in that the image of menacing black men with weapons expanded the pool of stereotypes to the point where a nice black family next door was no longer the worst thing that some people could imagine. Sure. It promoted the idea that the black family next door would shoot you. Good move. Think that had any "lasting" effects?

LafayetteLady -> RE: Yes, even Atheists... (5/30/2013 8:34:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady ... Blue laws have been repealed nearly everywhere in the US, and those that remain are in place for convenience now, not religious reasons. But really, do you honestly find it discriminatory because you couldn't shop for a car on a Sunday (the only Blue Law left in NJ, but not in existence in PA where you live)? Are you discriminated against because you are forced to take one day off each week (most people expect the entire weekend)?... You should re-check the Bergen County Blue Laws. It's more than just cars that can't be purchased. The Bergen County Mall is essentially shutdown (I think the food court is still open) because most of the stores there don't sell "necessities". Bars don't open until 6PM on Sunday (If I remember, correctly) but, you can enjoy an adult libation at a restaurant, earlier. I like to go to a bar to watch a football game, occasionally. There are other rules but they're easily found. Peace and comfort, Michael Again, it isn't a slight against atheists. It's nice to try to try to make it one, but it isn't. It's also "nice" that you would deprive those people of a guaranteed day off. Something that doesn't necessarily exist in retail or the bar business. So forgive me if I have no real pity that you can't go watch a football game at the bar.

LafayetteLady -> RE: Yes, even Atheists... (5/30/2013 8:37:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr "Yule" was taken over by the Church of Rome to "convert" the masses. There's evidence that Jesus was born in (what would be on our calendar) March, I believe. Peace and comfort, Michael I'm sure your comment wasn't directed at me. I'm well aware of many of the things that were "borrowed" from Paganism et al. in an early attempt to convert the Pagans to Catholicism. I happen to get a perverse pleasure telling people in my church that a Christmas tree was originally a Pagan tradition, and that begging for "treats" door to door was a Catholic thing to garner prayers from "bums" to get their loved ones out of Purgatory.

LafayetteLady -> RE: Yes, even Atheists... (5/30/2013 8:38:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Powergamz1 Really? There is no place in either New Jersey or Pennsylvania that bans beer sales on Sunday? Blue laws had nothing to do with forcing moral doctrine on all, and were purely implemented to allow observance of the non-handling of money or performing of work from one sundown to the next on the scriptural Sabbath? That's fantastic. I like the version where blue laws ignored the Sabbath day of rest, and mandated a dry period where workers would be able to sober up before the work week began on Monday, better. Well, the whole handling of money thing would be Jewish scripture I believe, and their Sabbath is on Saturday. Nice try.

LafayetteLady -> RE: Yes, even Atheists... (5/30/2013 8:40:33 PM)
Since Civil Rights are set forth in a legal document, yes I do. But why don't you provide me with YOUR definition of what it is, so I can know what you are actually trying to say? My mind reading skills don't work over the internet, and frankly, I have never liked guessing games.

Powergamz1 -> RE: Yes, even Atheists... (5/30/2013 8:40:35 PM)
That may be what the notion of an armed black man puts in some people's head. Don't assume that everyone who had been through the shooting of Medgar Evers, and the tail end of lynching violence, had things other than self defense in mind. quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady quote: ORIGINAL: Powergamz1 I think Got Steel may be onto something in that the image of menacing black men with weapons expanded the pool of stereotypes to the point where a nice black family next door was no longer the worst thing that some people could imagine. Sure. It promoted the idea that the black family next door would shoot you. Good move. Think that had any "lasting" effects?

DaddySatyr -> RE: Yes, even Atheists... (5/30/2013 8:47:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady Again, it isn't a slight against atheists. It's nice to try to try to make it one, but it isn't. It's also "nice" that you would deprive those people of a guaranteed day off. Something that doesn't necessarily exist in retail or the bar business. So forgive me if I have no real pity that you can't go watch a football game at the bar. I want neither your pity nor your sympathy. I was pointing out that there are other things that are affected. Personally, I follow a "rule" of trying not to make un-necessary purchases on my sabbath but my beliefs define "un-necessary" as non-perishables. The point is: blue laws are absolutely based in religious beliefs and, as a result, people that don't hold those beliefs are inconvenienced at best and possibly discriminated against at worst. What about Jews; some of whom have rules about not even *thinking* about money or finance on Saturday (their sabbath) that need that Sunday off to be able to purchase goods and services that they want? Can you find me a Walmart in Bergen County? Nope. Close by but not "in". Lowes? Home Depot? What if an atheist only gets that precious day off on Sunday and wants to do some home maintanence? They need to drive to another county (Suffern, NY is actually closer to some) and are "forced" to spend more money in fuel costs. In the case of people in Mahwah, NJ; Suffern NY is closer but there's another 1% tax (which brings the government into religion, to an extent). The laws originated to coincide with religious practice. There's no arguing it. As such, if they remain without being re-examined (put to a vote), they will continue to be discriminatory in nature to people who don't hold those same beliefs. Peace and comfort, Michael

Powergamz1 -> RE: Yes, even Atheists... (5/30/2013 8:49:39 PM)
Nice derail from your claim which directly contradicts the state ABC "Municipalities can further limit these hours by ordinance or referendum, and frequently do so with respect to Sunday mornings."(NJ). quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady quote: ORIGINAL: Powergamz1 Really? There is no place in either New Jersey or Pennsylvania that bans beer sales on Sunday? Blue laws had nothing to do with forcing moral doctrine on all, and were purely implemented to allow observance of the non-handling of money or performing of work from one sundown to the next on the scriptural Sabbath? That's fantastic. I like the version where blue laws ignored the Sabbath day of rest, and mandated a dry period where workers would be able to sober up before the work week began on Monday, better. Well, the whole handling of money thing would be Jewish scripture I believe, and their Sabbath is on Saturday. Nice try.

LafayetteLady -> RE: Yes, even Atheists... (5/30/2013 9:01:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Powergamz1 Nice derail from your claim which directly contradicts the state ABC "Municipalities can further limit these hours by ordinance or referendum, and frequently do so with respect to Sunday mornings."(NJ). quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady quote: ORIGINAL: Powergamz1 Really? There is no place in either New Jersey or Pennsylvania that bans beer sales on Sunday? Blue laws had nothing to do with forcing moral doctrine on all, and were purely implemented to allow observance of the non-handling of money or performing of work from one sundown to the next on the scriptural Sabbath? That's fantastic. I like the version where blue laws ignored the Sabbath day of rest, and mandated a dry period where workers would be able to sober up before the work week began on Monday, better. Well, the whole handling of money thing would be Jewish scripture I believe, and their Sabbath is on Saturday. Nice try. Still wrong. I was speaking directly of what YOU said. Check what I bolded. I was responding to that and only that. For the record, I'm aware of no Christian doctrine about handling money on the day of Sabbath. It really wouldn't work well with the whole collection plate thing, you know?

LafayetteLady -> RE: Yes, even Atheists... (5/30/2013 9:08:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr I want neither your pity nor your sympathy. I was pointing out that there are other things that are affected. And if you can't seem to figure out I was using car sales as merely an example, then that's your problem. quote: Personally, I follow a "rule" of trying not to make un-necessary purchases on my sabbath but my beliefs define "un-necessary" as non-perishables. The point is: blue laws are absolutely based in religious beliefs and, as a result, people that don't hold those beliefs are inconvenienced at best and possibly discriminated against at worst. I also said they were started due to religious issues, so what is your freaking gripe? It still doesn't rise to the level of discrimination. It can and does rise to the level of inconvenience. But for everyone. Most religious people are adversely affected by it as well. quote: What about Jews; some of whom have rules about not even *thinking* about money or finance on Saturday (their sabbath) that need that Sunday off to be able to purchase goods and services that they want? Can you find me a Walmart in Bergen County? Nope. Close by but not "in". Lowes? Home Depot? What if an atheist only gets that precious day off on Sunday and wants to do some home maintanence? They need to drive to another county (Suffern, NY is actually closer to some) and are "forced" to spend more money in fuel costs. In the case of people in Mahwah, NJ; Suffern NY is closer but there's another 1% tax (which brings the government into religion, to an extent). Gee, I don't have a super Walmart near me. I would have to drive all the way to Mansfield. In fact, in my town, I don't even have a grocery store! I have to leave my town to get to them. So, sorry, those stores not being in those towns is not because one day a week, their operations would be limited. It's foolish to think so, and certainly shows a superior lack of how business works. quote: The laws originated to coincide with religious practice. There's no arguing it. As such, if they remain without being re-examined (put to a vote), they will continue to be discriminatory in nature to people who don't hold those same beliefs. We agree why the laws originated. Most towns in NJ have abolished the majority of them. Your county hasn't. Seems more like an issue to take up with the county. However, the whole claim of discrimination is far reaching and ridiculous enough to be laughable.

DaddySatyr -> RE: Yes, even Atheists... (5/30/2013 9:14:09 PM)
Actually, the people who follow religions that coincide with Blue Laws aren't "inconvenienced" at all so, that would make the laws discriminatory. Sometimes, lack of perspective is laughable, also. Peace and comfort, Michael

DomKen -> RE: Yes, even Atheists... (5/31/2013 1:57:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady Since Civil Rights are set forth in a legal document, yes I do. But why don't you provide me with YOUR definition of what it is, so I can know what you are actually trying to say? My mind reading skills don't work over the internet, and frankly, I have never liked guessing games. Civil rights are that set of things without which you cannot fully participate in the society in which you live. It is a civil right for a woman not to be subject to the "glass ceiling" and it is a civil right that an atheist not have to hide his lack of faith to get and keep a job or to run for political office.

cordeliasub -> RE: Yes, even Atheists... (5/31/2013 7:05:36 AM)
I hate blue laws and I'm Baptist lol. I think it's funny....like buying a bottle of wine on Saturday or Monday somehow makes it less sinful or something. Get trashed as long as the liquor wasn't bought on Sunday... I hate it when I go to Wal mart on a Sunday afternoon hear and want to have wine with dinner that night....and then the cashier reminds me that they can't sell it. Of course, compared to being fired, beaten up, etc - you know - REAL discrimination.....I'd have to be pretty whiny to get all bent out of shape because I had to wait 24 hours to buy some Merlot.

Hillwilliam -> RE: Yes, even Atheists... (5/31/2013 7:12:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady Still wrong. I was speaking directly of what YOU said. Check what I bolded. I was responding to that and only that. For the record, I'm aware of no Christian doctrine about handling money on the day of Sabbath. It really wouldn't work well with the whole collection plate thing, you know? Various Jewish sects, Seventh day Adventist, Church of God, Sabbath Rest Advent church

DaddySatyr -> RE: Yes, even Atheists... (5/31/2013 7:13:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cordeliasub I hate blue laws and I'm Baptist lol. I think it's funny....like buying a bottle of wine on Saturday or Monday somehow makes it less sinful or something. Get trashed as long as the liquor wasn't bought on Sunday... I hate it when I go to Wal mart on a Sunday afternoon hear and want to have wine with dinner that night....and then the cashier reminds me that they can't sell it. Of course, compared to being fired, beaten up, etc - you know - REAL discrimination.....I'd have to be pretty whiny to get all bent out of shape because I had to wait 24 hours to buy some Merlot. What about not being able to buy a coat for your child in November? The blue laws I'm talking about, in particular, don't allow for stores to even sell clothing on Sunday. It's not about booze. I don't see that as a necessity, either. I just gave enjoying the occasional 1 PM football game in a bar as an example. Peace and comfort, Michael

Hillwilliam -> RE: Yes, even Atheists... (5/31/2013 7:25:33 AM)
Here's one of the big problems I have with "Blue Laws". Ima let y'all in on a deep dark seekrit. Not everyone observes the Sabbath on Sunday. Millions of Americans observe a Saturday Sabbath. They work Monday thru Friday. Sabbath begins at sundown on Friday. They observe and worship all day Saturday. And Sunday, all the fucking stores are closed. . Is this an example of one group shoving their beliefs down the throats of millions of others? I say yes. YMMV

cordeliasub -> RE: Yes, even Atheists... (5/31/2013 8:03:59 AM)
I am appalled that there are still cities (if you can call them that) where all the stores are closed on Sunday. I mean, I live in bubba central and we still have things open (like Wal mart, for example) on Sundays. Yeah, that would get on my nerves, not because of religion, but just because it's damn annoying.

vincentML -> RE: Yes, even Atheists... (5/31/2013 8:16:53 AM)
quote: Do you understand the difference between discussing something and hurling insults? That is what butch is talking about. The atheists who are constantly whiny how Christians are condemning them and are so ignorant and living in some kind of fantasy world because they believe in God, taking something on faith alone. Yet, you don't see anyone of faith crying, "but you must believe or you are doomed to hell!" or any variations there of. Yes, it is P&R, but that doesn't translate to, "Atheists, use this section to insult others and whine about how people hurt you because of your lack of faith in God." Cmon, LL, there is an entire subculture in America built on the fantasy of a so-called secular 'war on religion' and a 'war on Christmas.' The commentators on Fox News and Right Wing radio have for years been ginning up this false culture war and playing the religious persecution victim card. It is a neat trick you and Butch play to turn it around and say the atheists are the ones falsely crying victim. Keep in mind please that we have had discussion on these boards about surveys showing the low opinion religious people have of non-religious people. If you or Butch or anyone else has a complaint about atheists on here who are insulting you should confront those people directly or report to the mods instead of accusing all with a broad brush.

DaddySatyr -> RE: Yes, even Atheists... (5/31/2013 8:26:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cordeliasub I am appalled that there are still cities (if you can call them that) where all the stores are closed on Sunday. I mean, I live in bubba central and we still have things open (like Wal mart, for example) on Sundays. Yeah, that would get on my nerves, not because of religion, but just because it's damn annoying. I'm not speaking about a city or a town or a village. I'm speaking about an entire COUNTY. Bergen County, NJ. It's one of the most expensive places to live on the East coast and quite a few of the towns, cities, and villages don't have public transportation, either (and certainly not on Sunday). Please read the opening part ( The VERY top) of the link for a perspective on how many people are affected. Peace and comfort, Michael

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