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RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 5/30/2013 3:03:01 PM   
LafayetteLady


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

Religious theists in America, and especially Christians, are simply going to have to come to terms with the fact that their religion may use "peace" and "love" a lot in its theological rhetoric, but this rhetoric doesn't always translate into real behavior. Some people are simply too different to love and treat as full equals. Atheists fall into this category for a large number of religious believers and Christians in America."


Lets just take this and other religious threads on collarme... Who receives the hate and the contempt... the religious or the atheists.

When I walk down the street and pass strangers, which are always the majority, I have no idea their religious affiliation or lack of one... On top of that I don't care. The only people who have problems over their religion or lack of it are those that open their dumb asses mouths to tell everyone.

On these boards I see few people who go around preaching a religion ...do you see anyone doing that ? But I sure as hell see many who just cannot help themselves to proclaim their atheism and their contempt for those that believe in God and they attack on every thread... So bottom line you have things backwards.

Butch

Well errmmm . . . it is a Politics and RELIGION board after all, isn't it? So, now we are to stfu even on here? That is carrying oppression a step too far doncha think, Butch? Unbelievable. Imagine! People open their dumb asses mouth about their religion or lack of it on a Board dedicated to Religion. Who woulda thunk it?


Do you understand the difference between discussing something and hurling insults? That is what butch is talking about. The atheists who are constantly whiny how Christians are condemning them and are so ignorant and living in some kind of fantasy world because they believe in God, taking something on faith alone. Yet, you don't see anyone of faith crying, "but you must believe or you are doomed to hell!" or any variations there of.

Yes, it is P&R, but that doesn't translate to, "Atheists, use this section to insult others and whine about how people hurt you because of your lack of faith in God."

(in reply to vincentML)
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RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 5/30/2013 3:04:21 PM   
LafayetteLady


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Vince here was a simple idea...A Pope, leader of a major religion, in so many words saying doing good is what's important...not whether you are a Catholic or believer in any religion. A remarkable statement with no hidden meanings.

It should only get praise as a step forward for a religion with many problems ...instead it is attacked over and over by atheists ...And you claim that it is the religious, at least in the US, attacking atheists ...where...how...when?

Butch

I didn't say atheists were being attacked. The article I posted said they were discriminated against in the work place.



Yea, with absolutely not ONE example of it happening. Very convincing.

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RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 5/30/2013 3:11:35 PM   
LafayetteLady


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

What facts are you reporting...He said what he said... now time will tell if he meant them... you sure as heck don't know

Catholic Church confirms atheists still go to hell, after Pope Francis suggests they might go to heaven

quote:

Yet because his is a believer and you are not you think you know his mind...and you still can't see how you are being a hypocrite?

Is this personal name calling really necessary?


But the pope still said it. He is proving to be a bit of a radical, and I'm sure many higher ups in the church are quaking about what he will do next. Which I find amusing.

It's important to remember that the pope made this speech "off the cuff." He didn't prepare anything for his "handlers" to approve or disapprove of. I believe he does this intentionally.

I abandoned Catholicism more than 20 years ago, but I like this guy. He is not afraid to think, speak and act out of the Catholic box.

Although I think we should possibly look for signs of bruising or other injury after this speech. Obviously, the Vatican is PISSED. Perhaps it will help shake them into reality if the pope's fly in the face of what the Vatican wants behavior continues.

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RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 5/30/2013 3:24:59 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady
I don't think that particular reporter's comment or others like it make it a civil rights issue, but that is simply my opinion. If I recall, there were many who didn't want to vote for Kennedy because he was Catholic. Many wouldn't vote for Romney because he was a Mormon. There have also been issues with voting for an unmarried president, Regan for being divorced, Clinton because he didn't serve in the military (not to mention the infamous "I didn't inhale" incident) People were pretty vocal about all of those things. Still, none of them were civil rights issues.

Kennedy and Romney were civil rights issues. That a signifcant percentage of Americans would not vote for someone due to their faith denies that faith group their right to fully participate in the political process. Just try thinking about whether it is a civil rights issue that some people wouldn't vote for Obama because he is black.

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RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 5/30/2013 3:41:37 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

I abandoned Catholicism more than 20 years ago, but I like this guy. He is not afraid to think, speak and act out of the Catholic box.

Same here on both counts.

Francis reminds me a bit of John Paul I, which is mildly worrying.

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RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 5/30/2013 5:50:35 PM   
Powergamz1


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Status: offline 		Well, Marcus Garvey was persuasive enough to earn J.Edgar a promotion.
WEB Du Bois was no slouch, the writers of the Harlem Renaissance, Twain, Mencken, et al. had one thing in common... they felt that the logic of equality would surely yield results if people were just patient enough.

And the decades of waiting yielded... more waiting.

Maybe it is a just coincidence that when a small group decided to meet the next lynching with weapons, there was a sudden acceleration in civil rights.

If one believes in coincidences.

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

There were many persuasive voices before King.

There weren't that many black men brandishing weapons before the Panthers. You can measure the effect in time.

That's a little too pat for this one-time history major.

How "persuasive" were the voices before King if Jim Crow still reigned when MLK came along?

And an awful lot of Civil Rights milestones occurred before the Panthers were founded in 1966.

What do you see as the Panthers' main contributions?



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RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 5/30/2013 6:15:36 PM   
Powergamz1


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Status: offline 		Interesting idea.


quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice
What do you see as the Panthers' main contributions?


Moving the fringe thus making room in the moderate category for black equality positions.



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RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 5/30/2013 6:36:18 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

And the decades of waiting yielded... more waiting.

I don't think MLK advocated simply waiting. His protests were pretty in-your-face--and, in the case of the bus boycott, in-your-pocketbook.


quote:

Maybe it is a just coincidence that when a small group decided to meet the next lynching with weapons, there was a sudden acceleration in civil rights.

Can you give some examples of this "sudden acceleration"? A lot of the key events (Brown, Civil Rights Acts, Voting Rights Act, LBJ's EO authorizing "affirmative action") predated the Panthers. Loving came down a few months after the Panthers were founded, but given the snail-like pace of the legal system, I doubt they were a factor in it.

ETA: Another key question, probably also unanswerable, is whether the Panthers helped spark a backlash against African Americans and unwittingly lent credibility to the "law and order" theme of Nixon's Southern strategy.

< Message edited by dcnovice -- 5/30/2013 6:45:16 PM >

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RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 5/30/2013 7:08:41 PM   
dcnovice


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In my effort to learn more about the Black Panthers, I came across an interesting assessment at, yes, Wikipedia.

Some critics have written that the Panthers' "romance with the gun" and their promotion of "gang mentality" was likely associated with the enormous increase in both black-on-black and black-on-white crime observed during later decades.[23][79] This increase occurred in the Panthers' hometown of Oakland, California, and in other cities nationwide.[80][81] Interviewed after he left the Black Panther Party, former Minister of Information Eldridge Cleaver lamented that the legacy of the Panthers was at least partly one of disrespect for the law and indiscriminate violence. He acknowledged that, had his promotion of violent black militantism prevailed, it would have resulted in "a total bloodbath." Cleaver also lamented the abandonment of poor blacks by the black bourgeoisie and felt that black youth had been left without appropriate role models who could teach them to properly channel their militant spirit and their desire for justice.[82][83][84][85][86]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Panther_Party#Legacy


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RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 5/30/2013 7:21:21 PM   
Powergamz1


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Status: offline 		I didn't include MLK's name in that list, and I certainly didn't try to place him at the beginning of the 20th century. The schism between his choice of tactics and those advocated by more impatient leaders is well documented in any case.

On the post-Panthers era, civil rights was never about flipping an On/Off switch. That the Panthers caused any immediate great shift is unlikely, what is certain is that the legal system was ahead of the general population in mandating acceptance.

What I saw first hand was a shifting of attitudes, especially in more urban eras. Newspaper editorials shifted from either patronizing or out right hostility toward integration to a more 'reasoned' tone, entertainment allowed more outré black characters such as the Jim Brown - Raquel Welch love scene that presaged Shaft, et al. Dick Gregory was now ready for prime time, Black Power in general became more about manifesting power over self than receiving acceptance.

I think Got Steel may be onto something in that the image of menacing black men with weapons expanded the pool of stereotypes to the point where a nice black family next door was no longer the worst thing that some people could imagine.

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RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 5/30/2013 7:24:07 PM   
LafayetteLady


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady
Legally, I've yet to hear about a "hate" crime where atheists were attacked. Again, if you have something, please by all means post it.

Murder of an atheist for being an atheist
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/03/15/texas-man-allegedly-killed-soldier-for-not-believing-in-god/


Thank you for the link that Steel apparently couldn't find.

From that article I actually did a search of my own and came up with a couple others. However, these murderers were the same type of zealots that will stand outside of abortion clinics screaming murder at women of all beliefs, so I'm going to have to pass on that being discrimination.

The reason it wasn't elevated to a hate crime is because if it did, ANY crime committed against an atheist and they would start screaming that it was hate crime. Bad precedent, and yes, I do believe there are those who would push for that.

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RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 5/30/2013 7:55:32 PM   
LafayetteLady


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


Let's say someone on the board tells me that you confessed to them that you were a pathological liar. It would be a material misrepresentation for me then to claim, based solely on that heresay and my judgment of its credibility, that you did in actual fact explicitly admit to being a pathological liar.

See how that works? Good! Thanks for playing.

The informants directed the police to the crime scene establishing their credibility. There is no reason to believe they lied about the motive behind the crime.


But every reason to believe the accused wasn't telling the truth. Criminals are funny that way.

(in reply to DomKen)
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RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 5/30/2013 7:58:04 PM   
LafayetteLady


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady
Really, you are going to have to really show some inequality here. Acting like you are suffering from inequality comparable to the blacks and homosexuals is really laughable.


quote:

ORIGINAL: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrimination_against_atheists#United_States
A 2006 study found that 40% of respondents characterized atheists as a group that did "not at all agree with my vision of American society", and that 48% would not want their child to marry an atheist. In both studies, percentages of disapproval of atheists were above those for Muslims, African-Americans and homosexuals.[60] Many of the respondents associated atheism with immorality, including criminal behaviour, extreme materialism, and elitism.[61]


Presently the discrimination against us is more wide spread than either of those groups.

I'm bringing up the history of civil rights movements not because I'm claiming that atheists in my country are generally being beaten stabbed and shot but because skeptics, naturalists and rationalists stereotypically have a data fetish. As such the history of civil rights movements is often relevant to calculations we make regarding strategy for our own


Ah, I see. So basically, the fact that an atheist would most definitely be in danger in Muslim countries is the basis for your comment.

Yet, we are and have been talking about the US, where BOTH of us live. You knew that and now you are backtracking. It doesn't work. In the US, atheists are not being discriminated against, so I guess you will be able to fly your flag with a picture of Christ on the cross with a circle and slash through it without any problems.

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RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 5/30/2013 7:59:17 PM   
LafayetteLady


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

Moving the fringe thus making room in the moderate category for black equality positions.

Can you flesh that out a bit? Did this lead to any legislation or on-the-ground changes?


He can't flesh that out any more than he can provide examples of atheists being discriminated against. He's grasping at straws trying to promote his position.

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RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 5/30/2013 8:14:52 PM   
LafayetteLady


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quote:

ORIGINAL: curious23

I have a question for those who believe in God-What does the bible and what it says mean to you? What is your relationship with its words? Is it where your faith derives from or did you happen upon faith in a God by other means? No ulterior motive to these questions other than curiosity.

Every human inequality enforced by law, I feel, was brought on and justified by the "word" of God. Faith has never been an issue for anyone. Atheists especially don't (or shouldn't) have an issue with what one believes. It's when those beliefs start affecting those that don't believe that a problem arises (why do blue laws exist again?). These days, I feel that people are making up their own minds about who they feel God is to them, whether the bible agrees with them or not, which will continue until the bible has no credible say in any lofty decisions about life at all. It's hard to justify hateful laws or restrictive laws when that book no longer means anything to the majority of people. And without laws and conduct invading the lives of others, I feel people of all faiths and non-faith will finally be able to sit down and break bread together.

This would be bad news for the pope though. Since people are making their own decisions about how God feels and what he wants, The pope would be out of a job and this thread wouldn't even exist.


Glad to see you almost have begun making some sense.

To me, the Bible are stories from the past, something like an account of history. It's current form is also somewhat like a game of telephone, where through multiple translations, some of the meanings have changed. Much of what people tend to quote as current things being against the Bible, didn't exist in biblical times (like the level of medical care).

Yes, blue laws were started to enforce religious standards, however, think about this for a minute....the "enforcement" of those standards was because those people of faith believed in a day of rest. Now, by instituting those laws, EVERYONE got a day of rest, including atheists. That certainly isn't a bad thing, and in no way was it discriminatory.

Blue laws have been repealed nearly everywhere in the US, and those that remain are in place for convenience now, not religious reasons. But really, do you honestly find it discriminatory because you couldn't shop for a car on a Sunday (the only Blue Law left in NJ, but not in existence in PA where you live)? Are you discriminated against because you are forced to take one day off each week (most people expect the entire weekend)?

It would seem your bolded comment above doesn't hold much water.

I hate to break it to you, but the Bible is still THE most purchased book, and reprinted book in existence. It has existed for what? like 1400 years? It's not going anywhere. You don't have to read it, you don't have to own one. But if you honestly believe it will become useless, that's just stupidity and ignorance.

Also regardless of what you think of it (although it appears your reading or understanding of it is really, really limited), there is much in the bible that are valuable lessons to us all. The parables is one great example of that.




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RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 5/30/2013 8:21:18 PM   
DaddySatyr


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

... Blue laws have been repealed nearly everywhere in the US, and those that remain are in place for convenience now, not religious reasons. But really, do you honestly find it discriminatory because you couldn't shop for a car on a Sunday (the only Blue Law left in NJ, but not in existence in PA where you live)? Are you discriminated against because you are forced to take one day off each week (most people expect the entire weekend)?...



You should re-check the Bergen County Blue Laws. It's more than just cars that can't be purchased.

The Bergen County Mall is essentially shutdown (I think the food court is still open) because most of the stores there don't sell "necessities". Bars don't open until 6PM on Sunday (If I remember, correctly) but, you can enjoy an adult libation at a restaurant, earlier. I like to go to a bar to watch a football game, occasionally.

There are other rules but they're easily found.



Peace and comfort,



Michael

< Message edited by DaddySatyr -- 5/30/2013 8:22:07 PM >

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RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 5/30/2013 8:21:32 PM   
LafayetteLady


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quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar

Would you be gladdened if a Satanist told you he'd evoke the Devil himself to come to your aid?

Praying is evoking a deity to help in some way. Telling me that you'll implore a deity of your choice to aid me is insulting, because it presumes that if such a deity exists I would want its/his/her help.

If I want God to help me, I'll pray myself. You praying for me and asking that help in my stead is rude and unnecessary, because it deprives me of my choice to NOT request such deity to come to my aid.


Actually, since the story goes that you have to give your soul to the devil for all eternity, I would be a bit reticent. Although since the Satanist presumably had already given his soul to the devil, as long as it didn't involve the promise of MY soul, I actually wouldn't have any problem with it.

Just like I have no problem with those here who say they will light candles for me (although that doesn't follow my belief), or send positive energy of the universe my way (also not my belief) when I'm having troubled times. Help and good wishes can come in all forms, and I have no problem letting people cover all the bases for me.

I also think it is rude when someone is simply offering their best wishes to turn them away with a rude comment such as you have made in the past. There are some things that, as an adult, you accept without a need to try to insult someone. Kind of like someone wishing you a Merry Christmas. They aren't trying to push the birth of Christ on you, so be a grown up, say thank you and move on. Oh, and I have no problem with those who respond with "Happy Winter Solstice" back (I think that is the right holiday around that time, if not, my apologies to those of that belief system).

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RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 5/30/2013 8:25:26 PM   
DaddySatyr


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Status: offline 		"Yule" was taken over by the Church of Rome to "convert" the masses. There's evidence that Jesus was born in (what would be on our calendar) March, I believe.



Peace and comfort,



Michael

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RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 5/30/2013 8:26:35 PM   
Powergamz1


Posts: 1927
Joined: 9/3/2011
Status: offline 		Really? There is no place in either New Jersey or Pennsylvania that bans beer sales on Sunday? Blue laws had nothing to do with forcing moral doctrine on all, and were purely implemented to allow observance of the non-handling of money or performing of work from one sundown to the next on the scriptural Sabbath?

That's fantastic.

I like the version where blue laws ignored the Sabbath day of rest, and mandated a dry period where workers would be able to sober up before the work week began on Monday, better.

< Message edited by Powergamz1 -- 5/30/2013 8:27:02 PM >

_____________________________

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RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 5/30/2013 8:26:43 PM   
LafayetteLady


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady
I don't think that particular reporter's comment or others like it make it a civil rights issue, but that is simply my opinion. If I recall, there were many who didn't want to vote for Kennedy because he was Catholic. Many wouldn't vote for Romney because he was a Mormon. There have also been issues with voting for an unmarried president, Regan for being divorced, Clinton because he didn't serve in the military (not to mention the infamous "I didn't inhale" incident) People were pretty vocal about all of those things. Still, none of them were civil rights issues.

Kennedy and Romney were civil rights issues. That a signifcant percentage of Americans would not vote for someone due to their faith denies that faith group their right to fully participate in the political process. Just try thinking about whether it is a civil rights issue that some people wouldn't vote for Obama because he is black.


No, it isn't a civil rights issue, and neither was people not voting for Obama because he was black. They weren't prohibited from participating, they weren't prohibited from running, and THAT would have been a civil rights issue. Since two of the three won, obviously whatever those people thought didn't matter. As for the third, he lost not because of his religion but because of his and his party's own stupidity.

Who you choose to vote for is your personal choice. Some may not have voted for Romney because of his failure to want to recognize those who weren't wealthy. But regardless of their reasoning, those people chose who they wanted to vote for which is THEIR right in the process.

Again, just so you are clear on this, had Kennedy and Romney been prohibited from running because of their religion, or Obama because of his ethnicity, that WOULD have been a civil rights issue. Since they weren't, it wasn't.

(in reply to DomKen)
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