RE: Yes, even Atheists...

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vincentML -> RE: Yes, even Atheists... (5/31/2013 8:34:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub Vince here was a simple idea...A Pope, leader of a major religion, in so many words saying doing good is what's important...not whether you are a Catholic or believer in any religion. A remarkable statement with no hidden meanings. It should only get praise as a step forward for a religion with many problems ...instead it is attacked over and over by atheists ...And you claim that it is the religious, at least in the US, attacking atheists ...where...how...when? Butch I didn't say atheists were being attacked. The article I posted said they were discriminated against in the work place. Yea, with absolutely not ONE example of it happening. Very convincing. This is what you asked for and what I responded to: "So please, "enlighten" me...what equality are you so desperate to have as an atheist? " Examples of such an insidious culture are hard to come by because atheists do not quaify as a group of interest under the fair labor portion of the Civil Rights Act. However, when we see all of the Republican presidential candidates profess their belief in the Christian god or in biblical creation during a debate and when we see the President of the US attend a national prayer service the message is clearly sent to all that non-believers are in a don't ask, don't tell situation. Your denial or refusal to see this side of the issue goes to the heart of why discrimination exists. You are not even able to see there is a problem. We perceive a lot of christian anger. But hey, love the sinner, hate the sin. We love you guys. [:D] ETA: Just beginning research on the issue of job discrimination against atheists. Here is one case I quickly found: GREENEVILLE - A $250,000 religious discrimination lawsuit filed by the Tennessee director of American Atheists Inc. against CitiGroup has been settled. "The lawsuit stemmed from an incident in which two female co-workers allegedly became openly hostile toward Sims after she showed them her business card. The two women complained and were granted a request to be moved away from Sims. The lawsuit claims a picture of Jesus was posted on Sims' computer two days after the incident. After Sims complained about the picture, her supervisor, Russell Rogers, dismissed her on the grounds that she was being a disturbance." In ANONKA AND TAMMRA JOCHAM v TUSCOLA COUNTY, TUSCOLA COUNTY BOARD OF COMMISSIONERS, and JOHN DOES 1-5, The Judge denied defendents a summary order of dismissal for the accusation of failure to provide equal protection of the law to non-religious plaintiffs. The defendents settled the case and offered an apology. http://www.mied.uscourts.gov/Judges/archive/Lawsonpdf/01-10385%20Opinion%20denying%202d%20MSJ.pdf I hope you will reconsider your belief that discrimination against atheists does not exist.

vincentML -> RE: Yes, even Atheists... (5/31/2013 8:35:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub What facts are you reporting...He said what he said... now time will tell if he meant them... you sure as heck don't know Catholic Church confirms atheists still go to hell, after Pope Francis suggests they might go to heaven quote: Yet because his is a believer and you are not you think you know his mind...and you still can't see how you are being a hypocrite? Is this personal name calling really necessary? But the pope still said it. He is proving to be a bit of a radical, and I'm sure many higher ups in the church are quaking about what he will do next. Which I find amusing. It's important to remember that the pope made this speech "off the cuff." He didn't prepare anything for his "handlers" to approve or disapprove of. I believe he does this intentionally. I abandoned Catholicism more than 20 years ago, but I like this guy. He is not afraid to think, speak and act out of the Catholic box. Although I think we should possibly look for signs of bruising or other injury after this speech. Obviously, the Vatican is PISSED. Perhaps it will help shake them into reality if the pope's fly in the face of what the Vatican wants behavior continues. I never said anything about the pope. That unfounded accusation was made by Butch.

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Yes, even Atheists... (5/31/2013 8:43:28 AM)
FR~ Here's an idea that doesn't rock with christians.... A priest's/pardre's job, or function in life, is to spread the word of their lord etc. That's what they do for a living is it not?? To anyone else, they'd call it a job - what you do to earn a crust. Some sort of work that is paid for by those that employ you to do it. So..... They have blue laws because the pundits strongly believe they should have a 'day of rest' as per the bible. And yet, aren't those leading the church congregation actually working?? I mean, they are doing the job they are getting paid to do. So what's the friggin difference whether a shop worker works on the sabbath or a preist works on the sabbath? Isn't that somewhat hypocritical to say the least?? Do as I say but not as I do?? If they truly believed that a day of rest should be for everyone then they should follow their own preachings and NOT work on the sabbath - as in, not do their preaching on the sabbath. What's good for the goose etc. [:D]

DaddySatyr -> RE: Yes, even Atheists... (5/31/2013 8:57:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 FR~ Here's an idea that doesn't rock with christians.... A priest's/pardre's job, or function in life, is to spread the word of their lord etc. That's what they do for a living is it not?? To anyone else, they'd call it a job - what you do to earn a crust. Some sort of work that is paid for by those that employ you to do it. So..... They have blue laws because the pundits strongly believe they should have a 'day of rest' as per the bible. And yet, aren't those leading the church congregation actually working?? I mean, they are doing the job they are getting paid to do. So what's the friggin difference whether a shop worker works on the sabbath or a preist works on the sabbath? Isn't that somewhat hypocritical to say the least?? Do as I say but not as I do?? If they truly believed that a day of rest should be for everyone then they should follow their own preachings and NOT work on the sabbath - as in, not do their preaching on the sabbath. What's good for the goose etc. [:D] A lot of clerics don't get paid but are, in fact, supported by the church. Yes, they have some pocket cash to put fuel in the diocese's car and things of that sort but many are not "earning a paycheck" as such. While ministry is called a "vocation" by some that is not truly what it is (except if measured by the amount of time and learning that one puts into it). Forget religious mumbo-jumbo vís-à-vís blue laws. I would support a law mandating a five day work week so people could do whatever the hell they wanted (in my mind, the time would be best spent with the family as we have a dirth of family values in this country); including any religious practice(s). Peace and comfort, Michael

LafayetteLady -> RE: Yes, even Atheists... (5/31/2013 9:37:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr Actually, the people who follow religions that coincide with Blue Laws aren't "inconvenienced" at all so, that would make the laws discriminatory. Sometimes, lack of perspective is laughable, also. Peace and comfort, Michael The point is that the "inconveniences" you are talking about are so minor as to be non-existant. Believe me, I have a lot of perspective. I don't follow those kinds of strict religious guidelines, and I am not inconvenienced at all. Supermarkets and stores near me close earlier on Sundays. Not because of Blue Laws, but because that is what they do. Stores in my area are not allowed to be open 24 hours a day (that one sucks). I'm not going to bitch about it. Quite frankly, if you honestly think you bitching that you can't sit in a bar to watch a football game on a Sunday is the law discriminating against you, you need to adjust your perspective.

LafayetteLady -> RE: Yes, even Atheists... (5/31/2013 9:39:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady Since Civil Rights are set forth in a legal document, yes I do. But why don't you provide me with YOUR definition of what it is, so I can know what you are actually trying to say? My mind reading skills don't work over the internet, and frankly, I have never liked guessing games. Civil rights are that set of things without which you cannot fully participate in the society in which you live. It is a civil right for a woman not to be subject to the "glass ceiling" and it is a civil right that an atheist not have to hide his lack of faith to get and keep a job or to run for political office. Those two things are vastly different. Why? Because atheists aren't prevented from running and they sure aren't losing their jobs for being atheist. If they run and lose an election, while some may not have voted for them because they had a problem with their beliefs, that could have happened whatever their belief system. For the third and final time, if they were not permitted to run, that would be a civil rights issue. Because they can't garner the votes to win is not.

LafayetteLady -> RE: Yes, even Atheists... (5/31/2013 9:41:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cordeliasub I hate blue laws and I'm Baptist lol. I think it's funny....like buying a bottle of wine on Saturday or Monday somehow makes it less sinful or something. Get trashed as long as the liquor wasn't bought on Sunday... I hate it when I go to Wal mart on a Sunday afternoon hear and want to have wine with dinner that night....and then the cashier reminds me that they can't sell it. Of course, compared to being fired, beaten up, etc - you know - REAL discrimination.....I'd have to be pretty whiny to get all bent out of shape because I had to wait 24 hours to buy some Merlot. While it will only serve to piss off the atheists even more.....Amen sister.[sm=bowdown.gif]

DaddySatyr -> RE: Yes, even Atheists... (5/31/2013 9:46:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady The point is that the "inconveniences" you are talking about are so minor as to be non-existant. No, the point is: If there's any "inconvenience" to one group that is caused by the government/law propping up the religious views of another group, it violates the first amendment to the constitution. It becomes discriminatory. Discriminate quote: dis·crim·i·nate (d-skrm-nt) KEY VERB: dis·crim·i·nat·ed, dis·crim·i·nat·ing, dis·crim·i·nates VERB: intr. 1) To make a clear distinction; distinguish: discriminate among the options available. 2) To make sensible decisions; judge wisely. 3) To make distinctions on the basis of class or category without regard to individual merit; show preference or prejudice: was accused of discriminating against women; discriminated in favor of his cronies. VERB: tr. To perceive the distinguishing features of; recognize as distinct: discriminate right from wrong. To distinguish by noting differences; differentiate: unable to discriminate colors. To make or constitute a distinction in or between: methods that discriminate science from pseudoscience. Discriminatory quote: dis·crim·i·na·to·ry (d-skrm-n-tôr, -tr) KEY ADJECTIVE: 1) Marked by or showing prejudice; biased. 2) Making distinctions. This isn't rocket surgery! Peace and comfort, Michael

LafayetteLady -> RE: Yes, even Atheists... (5/31/2013 9:51:16 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr quote: ORIGINAL: cordeliasub I hate blue laws and I'm Baptist lol. I think it's funny....like buying a bottle of wine on Saturday or Monday somehow makes it less sinful or something. Get trashed as long as the liquor wasn't bought on Sunday... I hate it when I go to Wal mart on a Sunday afternoon hear and want to have wine with dinner that night....and then the cashier reminds me that they can't sell it. Of course, compared to being fired, beaten up, etc - you know - REAL discrimination.....I'd have to be pretty whiny to get all bent out of shape because I had to wait 24 hours to buy some Merlot. What about not being able to buy a coat for your child in November? The blue laws I'm talking about, in particular, don't allow for stores to even sell clothing on Sunday. It's not about booze. I don't see that as a necessity, either. I just gave enjoying the occasional 1 PM football game in a bar as an example. Peace and comfort, Michael Bergen County is the only county in NJ that still has restrictive Blue Laws. In the rest of the country, it is basically limited to alcohol and car sales, and some stores not being able to open before noon. So really, your gripe belongs with the Bergen County officials. If I remember correctly, your state senator is Gerald Cardinale. If he isn't busy taking yet another trip on tax payer money, schedule a meeting with him to discuss your concerns. Although as a dentist by trade, I wouldn't expect him to be of much help concerning actually understanding the law. Of course, since the rest of the country doesn't follow the same policies, you can move. Christie tried to change those laws, and Bergen County officials were adamant they would fight them. The people in your county put those people in office, including you.

LafayetteLady -> RE: Yes, even Atheists... (5/31/2013 9:55:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: Do you understand the difference between discussing something and hurling insults? That is what butch is talking about. The atheists who are constantly whiny how Christians are condemning them and are so ignorant and living in some kind of fantasy world because they believe in God, taking something on faith alone. Yet, you don't see anyone of faith crying, "but you must believe or you are doomed to hell!" or any variations there of. Yes, it is P&R, but that doesn't translate to, "Atheists, use this section to insult others and whine about how people hurt you because of your lack of faith in God." Cmon, LL, there is an entire subculture in America built on the fantasy of a so-called secular 'war on religion' and a 'war on Christmas.' The commentators on Fox News and Right Wing radio have for years been ginning up this false culture war and playing the religious persecution victim card. It is a neat trick you and Butch play to turn it around and say the atheists are the ones falsely crying victim. Keep in mind please that we have had discussion on these boards about surveys showing the low opinion religious people have of non-religious people. If you or Butch or anyone else has a complaint about atheists on here who are insulting you should confront those people directly or report to the mods instead of accusing all with a broad brush. I didn't name names because of the rules here. You were not among them. You are able to conduct yourself like an adult. However, you aren't going to sit there and tell me with a straight face (not that I can see it, lol) that there aren't a number of atheists on this board who resort to the type of behavior we are talking about here. I have no issues with "non-religious" folk. I put it in quotes because I don't do the "non-religious" thing. I prefer the term faith, and quite frankly, Pagans, Wiccans, etc. have faith. Not the same faith as me, but faith all the same. So no, I haven't accused "all" with a broad stroke. It just seems that many are worried that the brush indicated them.

DaddySatyr -> RE: Yes, even Atheists... (5/31/2013 9:57:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady The people in your county put those people in office, including you. But for a very short portion of my early life (ages 2-4 yrs.) I've never lived in Bergen County. I certainly wasn't old enough to vote and my only living relative (UB) that remains there votes *AGAINST* Blue Laws each time they appear on the ballot. Don't blame me for religious extremists fucking with the constitution, thank you. Peace and comfort, Michael

LafayetteLady -> RE: Yes, even Atheists... (5/31/2013 9:57:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr quote: ORIGINAL: cordeliasub I am appalled that there are still cities (if you can call them that) where all the stores are closed on Sunday. I mean, I live in bubba central and we still have things open (like Wal mart, for example) on Sundays. Yeah, that would get on my nerves, not because of religion, but just because it's damn annoying. I'm not speaking about a city or a town or a village. I'm speaking about an entire COUNTY. Bergen County, NJ. It's one of the most expensive places to live on the East coast and quite a few of the towns, cities, and villages don't have public transportation, either (and certainly not on Sunday). Please read the opening part ( The VERY top) of the link for a perspective on how many people are affected. Peace and comfort, Michael Actually in terms of cost of living, Morris County tops Bergen easily. Just sayin'.

UllrsIshtar -> RE: Yes, even Atheists... (5/31/2013 10:03:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady I also think it is rude when someone is simply offering their best wishes to turn them away with a rude comment such as you have made in the past. There are some things that, as an adult, you accept without a need to try to insult someone. What rude comment? Since when is "please don't" a rude comment. There are some things that, as an adult, you need to learn to accept without feeling a need to feel insulted because of it. People requesting you not to pray for them, when you unilaterally stated to them that you would, is one of those thing. I didn't trow a hissy fit at your statement, nor did I insult you over it. I merely requested you not to pray for me after you told me you would. The fact that you are taking insult at such a simple requests tells me that you don't acknowledge people's right to not want something done to them involuntarily, including being prayed over. Best wishes are and Merry Christmas are completely different than prayers btw. When you wish somebody the best, you are wishing the best TO THEM. You are wishing THEM well. When you pray for somebody, you are not wishing somebody TO a person. Instead, you're invoking a deity to interfere with that person's life on your behalf. You are MEDDLING. You're not just merely offering your best. You are stating that you are going to request your God to fix what YOU think needs fixing. It's rude. Because it's judgmental. And it speaks of an attitude wherein you feel justified and entitled to meddle in another person's life. I take insult whenever a person states that they feel entitled to meddle in my life, whether that statement is made in the form of a prayer of not.

UllrsIshtar -> RE: Yes, even Atheists... (5/31/2013 10:06:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady quote: ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady ... Blue laws have been repealed nearly everywhere in the US, and those that remain are in place for convenience now, not religious reasons. But really, do you honestly find it discriminatory because you couldn't shop for a car on a Sunday (the only Blue Law left in NJ, but not in existence in PA where you live)? Are you discriminated against because you are forced to take one day off each week (most people expect the entire weekend)?... You should re-check the Bergen County Blue Laws. It's more than just cars that can't be purchased. The Bergen County Mall is essentially shutdown (I think the food court is still open) because most of the stores there don't sell "necessities". Bars don't open until 6PM on Sunday (If I remember, correctly) but, you can enjoy an adult libation at a restaurant, earlier. I like to go to a bar to watch a football game, occasionally. There are other rules but they're easily found. Peace and comfort, Michael Again, it isn't a slight against atheists. It's nice to try to try to make it one, but it isn't. It's also "nice" that you would deprive those people of a guaranteed day off. Something that doesn't necessarily exist in retail or the bar business. So forgive me if I have no real pity that you can't go watch a football game at the bar. The problem isn't a guaranteed day off, the problem is that it's on Sunday by religious default. I bet that Michael wouldn't have an issue to see a law that businesses need to close one day a week, but can choose which day they want to close.

DaddySatyr -> RE: Yes, even Atheists... (5/31/2013 10:10:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar Best wishes are and Merry Christmas are completely different than prayers btw. When you wish somebody the best, you are wishing the best TO THEM. You are wishing THEM well. I remember growing up in a city where 11 months out of the year, people would walk over your convulsing body rather than get you some help. I also remember how for about a month, if people bumped into you or walked in front of you, instead of "excuse me", you'd get a robust "Merry Christmas!" Now, I was a much younger man and I had no personal deity in which I believed so I had two standard answers. I would either say: "L'chaim!" (I hope I spelled that right) or "Fuck you, Santa Claus!" I don't know ... it made me laugh. Peace and comfort, Michael

DaddySatyr -> RE: Yes, even Atheists... (5/31/2013 10:14:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar I bet that Michael wouldn't have an issue to see a law that businesses need to close one day a week, but can choose which day they want to close. You'd almost win that bet. I'd prefer it were two days and the *employees* got to choose which days they didn't want to work. I don't give a fat rat's ass whether businesses are open 24/7 or not. I care that people saying "Well, I like to go to church on Sunday" are frequently not called in for an interview, based solely on that (in retail, anyway). (Actually, I sort of answered your question, here: Post #364) quote: ORIGINAL DaddySatyr Forget religious mumbo-jumbo vís-à-vís blue laws. I would support a law mandating a five day work week so people could do whatever the hell they wanted (in my mind, the time would be best spent with the family as we have a dirth of family values in this country); including any religious practice(s). Peace and comfort, Michael

LafayetteLady -> RE: Yes, even Atheists... (5/31/2013 10:20:40 AM)
vincent, I read your articles. The first, I do think the woman was harassed due to her beliefs. I do not support such behavior at all. But yes, I see that it happens. However, I do not believe it is proliferating the corporate world. The second article again was a matter of the Plaintiffs being in the right. There should be no religious displays on government property. However, this would mean no lights, no candy canes, no snowflakes, nothing. Because some of what people would consider "secular" would also fall under things celebrating winter solstice. Nothing being recognized is nothing being recognized. While I'm very Christian, I'm also very "separation of church and state," in my beliefs. To give you an example. I currently have an issue with one of the pastors at my church. He tends to politicize from the pulpit, something I am completely against, and I have told him this to his face (yes, I'm as vocal in person as "hiding" behind my computer). It is my belief (and a couple others) that he seems to have some political aspirations, and makes no secret he would like to "convert" our whole town. I have made it known to some (some of which I know will spread the word), that if he were to throw his hat in the ring of our next mayoral race, I would run just to stop him from having any chance, and use whatever necessary, including pointing out his extreme views (which are also the views of my own church). Anything to make sure that people didn't foolishly vote for him. Am I unusual for the Born Again Christian sect that I am a member of? Definitely and for many more reasons than just the above. However, I don't think that Atheists are discriminated against any more than other "normalized" groups. That isn't the right way to put it, but all I can think of. To give an example, I could certainly research and no doubt find similar cases in the reverse, where perhaps a picture of Satan or a Pentagram was put on a devout Christian's computer. I know of cases where employees were disciplined for wearing a cross or Star of David. You know that things are not perfect, but some people's attempt to raise the "battle" atheists are fighting as equal to the battle for equal rights having been fought for by blacks, and currently being fought by homosexuals is insulting and really not even close to the same.

UllrsIshtar -> RE: Yes, even Atheists... (5/31/2013 10:22:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr quote: ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar Best wishes are and Merry Christmas are completely different than prayers btw. When you wish somebody the best, you are wishing the best TO THEM. You are wishing THEM well. I remember growing up in a city where 11 months out of the year, people would walk over your convulsing body rather than get you some help. I also remember how for about a month, if people bumped into you or walked in front of you, instead of "excuse me", you'd get a robust "Merry Christmas!" Now, I was a much younger man and I had no personal deity in which I believed so I had two standard answers. I would either say: "L'chaim!" (I hope I spelled that right) or "Fuck you, Santa Claus!" I don't know ... it made me laugh. Peace and comfort, Michael That's the thing though, regardless of your believes, when a person says "Merry Christmas" they are saying: "I wish for your to have an enjoyable Christmas season/day/week". When somebody says "I'll pray for your" they say: "I will evoke my deity on your behalf to fix the problems in your life for you that I think needs to be fixed". They're basically saying: "I'll fix you to the standards I feel yo need fixing". Sorry, if somebody says "I wish you an enjoyable season" instead of "Merry Christmas" I'll take both in good spirits. If somebody says "I'll fix you" I don't care if it's said in that format or under the presence of prayer, I'll still feel offended, because it implies self-entitment to judge me and force a fix on me. It's unbelievable rude.

LafayetteLady -> RE: Yes, even Atheists... (5/31/2013 10:24:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr A lot of clerics don't get paid but are, in fact, supported by the church. Yes, they have some pocket cash to put fuel in the diocese's car and things of that sort but many are not "earning a paycheck" as such. While ministry is called a "vocation" by some that is not truly what it is (except if measured by the amount of time and learning that one puts into it). Forget religious mumbo-jumbo vís-à-vís blue laws. I would support a law mandating a five day work week so people could do whatever the hell they wanted (in my mind, the time would be best spent with the family as we have a dirth of family values in this country); including any religious practice(s). Peace and comfort, Michael A friend of mine is the office and financial manager for a local Catholic church. Priests are definitely paid a salary. Not simply pocket money. And their car is paid for by the church, including gas. So is their housing, their groceries, their medical benefits. As a group, they have probably some of the best perks of employees anywhere. As for your "five day work week." That would completely close places down on the weekends. Or we would face discrimination suits from retail workers, restaurant/bar employees, grocery store employees, etc. Not quite so easy to fix is it?

LafayetteLady -> RE: Yes, even Atheists... (5/31/2013 10:33:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar That's the thing though, regardless of your believes, when a person says "Merry Christmas" they are saying: "I wish for your to have an enjoyable Christmas season/day/week". When somebody says "I'll pray for your" they say: "I will evoke my deity on your behalf to fix the problems in your life for you that I think needs to be fixed". They're basically saying: "I'll fix you to the standards I feel yo need fixing". Sorry, if somebody says "I wish you an enjoyable season" instead of "Merry Christmas" I'll take both in good spirits. If somebody says "I'll fix you" I don't care if it's said in that format or under the presence of prayer, I'll still feel offended, because it implies self-entitment to judge me and force a fix on me. It's unbelievable rude. No they aren't meddling or praying for what they believe needs fixing. They are indeed "invoking their deity," but the prayers are asking their deity to provide you with the strength you need to get through the rough patch, or that you find the answers you seek/need. I am not really sure where you got the idea that they are praying for what they think you need. Praying for others does not work like that. If you say I'm having trouble dealing with my husband's situation with his ex, the prayer would be something to the effect of, "Lord, please help Ishtar and her family through this difficult time, finding the answers they seek." Notice there is nothing about what I think should be done. For dcnovice, and his battle with cancer (which is specific), "God, dcnovice is battling cancer, please help him in this time of need, and if it is your will, heal him of this dreaded disease." Yes, that is specific, but again, he has a very specific issue. You had an out of the blue spiritual experience. From what I gather, it has provided you with clarity and strength to do what you needed to do. What if you were to find out that perhaps you received that experience because people had prayed for you?

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